61% of Americans are behind Union's Rights

[Z06PDQ]

Poll: Americans favor union bargaining rights
By Judy Keen and Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY


MADISON, Wis. — Americans strongly oppose laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll. The poll found 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law. Republican Gov. Scott Walker and Republican legislators in Wisconsin have proposed cutting union rights for most state government workers and making them pay more for benefits. Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana, Iowa and other states with Republican governors are considering similar laws.

Thousands gathered in Madison for an eighth day to protest Walker's plan. Rallies were also held in Columbus, Ohio, Des Moines and Montpelier, Vt.

"Most people ... mistakenly think worker rights come from collective bargaining," Walker told USA TODAY Tuesday. He said his plan would not remove union workers' protections from wrongful termination or inappropriate discipline or hiring. "When you alter collective bargaining, it doesn't alter workers' rights," he said.

Walker wants union members to pay more for their health care and pension benefits, moves he and other Republicans say would save $300 million over the next two years as the state faces a projected $3.6 billion budget shortfall.

Fourteen Democratic legislators have left the state for the past week to keep the Senate from having a quorum needed to vote on the bill. Democrats in the Indiana House of Representatives also stayed away from their Capitol on Tuesday as unions protested Republican-backed labor bills.

Almost two-thirds of those polled say their states face budget crises, but respondents oppose or are split on potential solutions, from tax hikes to spending cuts.

Key results:

— 71% oppose increasing sales, income or other taxes while 27% are in favor that approach.

— 53% oppose reducing pay or benefits for government workers while 44% are in favor.

— 48% opposed reducing or eliminating government programs while 47% were in favor of cuts.

"This underlines the difficulty of solving these problems," Jeffrey Jones of Gallup says. "It's hard to find a consensus on what to do."

Despite the opposition to tax hikes or spending cuts, those surveyed agreed overwhelmingly that their state was facing a budget crisis.

Sixty-four percent said their state was in financial crisis while only 5% said it wasn't. The rest were unsure.

The poll found people were divided on whether public employee unions were a good thing. A slight majority of 46% said unions were generally more harmful to states while 45% thought they were helpful.

Still, this mixed view did not extend to supporting changes in pay, benefits or bargaining rights.

Republicans supported limiting bargaining by a 54%-41% margin. However, only 18% of Democrats favored restrictions while 79% were opposed. Independents were against bargaining restrictions by a 31% to 62% margain.

Jones says that public support for unions has been strong for decades, although it has dropped in the last few years. Still, he says the poll shows Americans are reluctant to take away something that unions have already.
USA TODAY/Gallup Poll

Q. Would you favor or oppose a law in your state taking away some collective bargaining rights of most public unions, including the state teachers union?

Source: USA TODAY/Gallup Poll of 1,000 adults Monday. Margin of error: +/-4 percentage points
USA TODAY/Gallup Poll

Q. Do you favor or oppose these ways to reduce state budget deficits?

Source: USA TODAY/Gallup Poll of 1,000 adults Monday. Margin of error: +/-4 percentage points

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[Scissors]

Laws shouldn't address unions at all, either pro- or anti-. If people want to form a union, freedom dictates that they be able to. If the employer wants to not hire union members, freedom dictates that they don't have to.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Scissors

Laws shouldn't address unions at all, either pro- or anti-. If people want to form a union, freedom dictates that they be able to. If the employer wants to not hire union members, freedom dictates that they don't have to.

I'm pro union, but I'm also pro Right to Work. there are many "unions" that aren't recognized as such simply because they don't entail collective bargaining.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Scissors

Laws shouldn't address unions at all, either pro- or anti-. If people want to form a union, freedom dictates that they be able to. If the employer wants to not hire union members, freedom dictates that they don't have to.

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

I'm pro union, but I'm also pro Right to Work. there are many "unions" that aren't recognized as such simply because they don't entail collective bargaining.

ANY union worth a good God damn needs to make sure their members are worth their paycheck....

case in point, the boilermakers, union tested and certified X ray spec welders, guys used to remaking power plants, 5000' in the air in a pipe welding shit to be grenade proof, in 0 f cold.....

and so they only send guys out who know WTF they are doing...or should, anyway...sure the world ain't perfect,....but there are many union workers tossed off some job for whatever reason....drugs, quality, can't pass Xray spec.....ALL of it QC related...

NOW, in a public UNION shituation the assholes have about NO way to get fired....cops, FF, teachers...the stories abound....and i'ts not just NYC, but most cities stuck with that crapola...

MEANwhile they protest/protect the docking of a few hours for sub standard work, or the person gets paid for getting laid (off).....

must be freeking NICE....

[Z06PDQ]

yeah 'cause nobody ever gets fired from the government.

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

yeah 'cause nobody ever gets fired from the government.

Wisconsin, are you hearing this?

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

yeah 'cause nobody ever gets fired from the government.

A hardball buddy of mine, met as our daughters are same age, he was Crystal City in No Va. Navy Dept. civilial engineer....treated like a Navy Captain when travelling.....well he told this story that it took some 2 YEARS for him to totally document enough bullshit paperwork to fire some bitch outta his office under his direct supervision.....

TWO freeking years....to FIRE someone??? TWO years...??

bullshit.....

Mike is my age so long since retarred from the Fed.gov...and that SOB was worth eveyr nickel.....

he worked on the designs for....

the drones used in blowing up terrorists from Kansas or wherever.....

as in over trashcanistan, iraq or other garden spots....

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by mrvette

A hardball buddy of mine, met as our daughters are same age, he was Crystal City in No Va. Navy Dept. civilial engineer....treated like a Navy Captain when travelling.....well he told this story that it took some 2 YEARS for him to totally document enough bullshit paperwork to fire some bitch outta his office under his direct supervision.....

TWO freeking years....to FIRE someone??? TWO years...??

bullshit.....

Mike is my age so long since retarred from the Fed.gov...and that SOB was worth eveyr nickel.....

he worked on the designs for....

the drones used in blowing up terrorists from Kansas or wherever.....

as in over trashcanistan, iraq or other garden spots....

Sounds to me like someone agreed to bad deal.

Sometimes you reap what you sow.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by mrvette

A hardball buddy of mine, met as our daughters are same age, he was Crystal City in No Va. Navy Dept. civilial engineer....treated like a Navy Captain when travelling.....well he told this story that it took some 2 YEARS for him to totally document enough bullshit paperwork to fire some bitch outta his office under his direct supervision.....

TWO freeking years....to FIRE someone??? TWO years...??

bullshit.....

Mike is my age so long since retarred from the Fed.gov...and that SOB was worth eveyr nickel.....

he worked on the designs for....

the drones used in blowing up terrorists from Kansas or wherever.....

as in over trashcanistan, iraq or other garden spots....

and a buddy of mine who is a government trapper told me the story of a coworker of his that they tried to run off when he was just shy of a year to retire. they moved his job from Texas to ****ing Minot or some God awful place. when they told him he said "ok,what time do I show up Monday?" he stuck it out till he retired & all he did was sit in an office for 8 hours a day because there was no damn job there.

[ChasC5]

So it looks like everyone has a story to tell.

[MrPeabody]

Government employees can be fired. We fired the governor in California not too long ago.

[Peter Pan]

Originally Posted by MrPeabody

Government employees can be fired. We fired the governor in California not too long ago.

The last one term limits or did Arnold decide not to run again? Time for Govt workers union or not to feel the same pain as the private sector, no more jobs for life.

[6spdC6]

Originally Posted by mrvette

ANY union worth a good God damn needs to make sure their members are worth their paycheck....

case in point, the boilermakers, union tested and certified X ray spec welders, guys used to remaking power plants, 5000' in the air in a pipe welding shit to be grenade proof, in 0 f cold.....
and so they only send guys out who know WTF they are doing...or should, anyway...sure the world ain't perfect,....but there are many union workers tossed off some job for whatever reason....drugs, quality, can't pass Xray spec.....ALL of it QC related...

NOW, in a public UNION shituation the assholes have about NO way to get fired....cops, FF, teachers...the stories abound....and i'ts not just NYC, but most cities stuck with that crapola...

MEANwhile they protest/protect the docking of a few hours for sub standard work, or the person gets paid for getting laid (off).....

must be freeking NICE....

Dave, a retired union pipefitter! There are many unions out there I want no part of.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Scissors

Laws shouldn't address unions at all, either pro- or anti-. If people want to form a union, freedom dictates that they be able to. If the employer wants to not hire union members, freedom dictates that they don't have to.

Agreed. Hence the situation in Wisconsin being A-OK. The teacher union is NOT being decertified (although one could argue public teachers unions should be outlawed due to the damage they inflict upon our children). The government of Wisconsin, the taxpayers, and the voters should be FREE to CHOOSE not to negotiate certain compensation tied to Govt. jobs.

NO ONE has any "RIGHT" to force an unwilling party to negotiate. Wisconsin has every right to specify compensation, and say "take it or leave it, no negotiation on what WE will offer for OUR positions."

Wisconsin is not outlawing or de-certifying ANY unions. Wisconsin is merely deciding that they do not wish to negotiate aspects of compensation for certain jobs THEY offer. FULLY within the state governments (and the taxpayer/voters') rights. If the taxpayers/voters of Wisconsin decide that they would like to resume negotiating such aspects, they may pressure Gov. Walker to do so, or they may vote him out and replace him with someone who will.

The governor has the support of a majority of state residents on this matter, is doing what he was elected to do, and is violating NO laws and NO individual rights, period.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Will

The governor has the support of a majority of state residents on this matter, is doing what he was elected to do, and is violating NO laws and NO individual rights, period.

he never mentioned abolishing collective bargaining as a campaign promise. this is underhanded bullshit at best & since his "punking" his agenda has been laid bare for all of America to see.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

he never mentioned abolishing collective bargaining as a campaign promise. this is underhanded bullshit at best & since his "punking" his agenda has been laid bare for all of America to see.

What is "underhanded" about it. NO violation of anyone's rights or any law.

Please explain. It will save money. It will stop abuses. It will MAINTAIN teacher salaries and benefits that are incredibly generous.

Average INDIVIDUAL salary of $50,000, or more than U.S. HOUSEHOLD income.
Average $25,000 benefits package.
Ability to retire BEFORE Social Security age with up to 100% salary.
And NOW having to pay a ~15% of their salaries to fund their own health care and retirement packages, which are plush.

This is a solid, well above average middle class lifestyle for people producing poor results compared to their private counterparts.

[Will]

http://dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/xls/tasr10.xls


Wisconsin 2010 Teacher Salaries.

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by Will

http://dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/xls/tasr10.xls


Wisconsin 2010 Teacher Salaries.

Wow, molding the minds of our children, and not the pay to match.

[Will]

Originally Posted by ChasC5

Wow, molding the minds of our children, and not the pay to match.

I'm all for paying FOR PERFORMANCE.

I'd even be in favor for LARGER salaries than these. IF WE RECEIVED COMPARABLE VALUE.

Instead we're paying for one great teacher out of 20, and 19 rabble-rousing bums using their students as props.

The same people protesting are the same scum who put getting theirs first, and damn kids to inferior education by opposing school vouchers, doing a poor job themselves, opposing home-schooling, etc.

Even in some heavily democratic areas, we have seen that charter schools have succeeded. American public education is broken, and responsible party #1 are the teachers unions, which treat the public education system as a golden goose for themselves first. Educating excellent students and future citizens is literally of no concern. Their ACTIONS show this. Their RESULTS demonstrate this.

[MrPeabody]

Originally Posted by Peter Pan

The last one term limits or did Arnold decide not to run again? Time for Govt workers union or not to feel the same pain as the private sector, no more jobs for life.

I was referring to Gray Davis as the one we fired. Arnold could not run because of term limits. Doesn't matter, though, Pee Wee Herman could have beaten him in an election after the damage he's done.
We just fired the Sheriff in my county, too.