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Old 10-13-2011, 11:08am   #41
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you (not YOU, but you know) can spin that shit however they want it spun.

without spinning anything, here is a fact. In a pretend world that if I could actually make this happen, i could bring GM's plants down here to where i live and have 2,000 workers on the line tomorrow doing mindless assembly work for less than $15 an hour. Not only that, I could have them paying for their own health insurance out of their salary with minimal to no investment from the company.

What's that corvette cost GM now in hourly labor? $75? $100?$125? (i actually knew this once but have honestly forgotten.)

Without the UAW and relocating we could drop that by over 50%, have just as good quality and more sales.

Not only could this happen, when i would walk out onto the assembly line, those 2000 $15 an hour workers would applaud and think I am king and be some of the most loyal employees you ever saw.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:16am   #42
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and that 15% is what percentage of taxes paid as a whole? i know their 1% is a whole hell of a lot more than my 28%. (or whatever the hell i pay. i actually don't even know what i pay, nor do i know how much i make)
So you think its fair that the more you make the less you should have to pay as a percentage of income? How is that logical???

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I just can't subscribe to a theory that the wealthy are the bad guys. kudos to those making it big. they did their homework and made something of themselves. a whole lot more than i can say for the 47% of the population that we support.
What most people don't know is that the majority of wealthy people were born wealthy. Same can be said of those living in poverty. Why is it then OK to allow those on the upper end to skirt taxes while hammering those on the lower end living off food stamps? The vast majority of both are victims or beneficiaries of the class they were born into. I'd sure as hell prefer being wealthy with a 38% tax rate than living tax free on $7 an hour or unemployment.

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If we are trying to regulate salaries, i'd be much more inclined to go after hollywood and professional sports before corporate america.
Taxes shouldn't be based on profession, they should be based on all money taken in over the course of a year.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:22am   #43
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you (not YOU, but you know) can spin that shit however they want it spun.

without spinning anything, here is a fact. In a pretend world that if I could actually make this happen, i could bring GM's plants down here to where i live and have 2,000 workers on the line tomorrow doing mindless assembly work for less than $15 an hour. Not only that, I could have them paying for their own health insurance out of their salary with minimal to no investment from the company.

What's that corvette cost GM now in hourly labor? $75? $100?$125? (i actually knew this once but have honestly forgotten.)

Without the UAW and relocating we could drop that by over 50%, have just as good quality and more sales.

Not only could this happen, when i would walk out onto the assembly line, those 2000 $15 an hour workers would applaud and think I am king and be some of the most loyal employees you ever saw.
That is not a fact.

By the way, at $15 an hour, all of your employees with families would qualify for medicare, HUD housing and food stamps.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:31am   #44
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So you think its fair that the more you make the less you should have to pay as a percentage of income? How is that logical???

What most people don't know is that the majority of wealthy people were born wealthy. Same can be said of those living in poverty. Why is it then OK to allow those on the upper end to skirt taxes while hammering those on the lower end living off food stamps? The vast majority of both are victims or beneficiaries of the class they were born into. I'd sure as hell prefer being wealthy with a 38% tax rate than living tax free on $7 an hour or unemployment.

Taxes shouldn't be based on profession, they should be based on all money taken in over the course of a year.
Doesn't matter whether or not i think it's fair,what matters is thats the way the system is, they are using it to their advantage, as would I, and they are paying a hell of a lot more than the rest of us. And beyond the 15%. they are still paying the additional taxes us common folks are paying, and more importantly, they are directly responsible for creating a much larger tax base through the corporations, employment, production, and sales of goods/services.

How are we hammering anyone on food stamps? they arent paying any taxes to begin with! all they are doing is taking our money. and those that are in that bracket that DO actually work, are probably getting refunds back that are GREATER than what they paid in! thats the crock of shit here. You're not going to get me to fixate on 15%. so the guy made $30m. wtf cares? yes, I think that dude paying $4.5 m in taxes has paid WAY more than his fair share to the .gov. he certainly did not use anywhere near those kinds of resources from the .gov, so why hammer him any more?

I don't think taxes should be profession specific either, but how the hell are the holllywood and professional sports people any less evil than corporate America? they don't contribute shit, and they are the reason entertainment prices are so high.

and your last sentence hits to the larger problem. I agree, i'd love to be wealthy enough to have tax problems. but you and I are in the minority. most would rather the $7 an hour or unemployment so they can continue to suck our tits. the entitlement generation.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:34am   #45
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That is not a fact.

By the way, at $15 an hour, all of your employees with families would qualify for medicare, HUD housing and food stamps.
what part is not fact?
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:19pm   #46
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Doesn't matter whether or not i think it's fair,what matters is thats the way the system is, they are using it to their advantage, as would I,
So we can agree the system is fcuked and the wealthy are using it to their advantage. Great! Now you see why I am supporting these protesters. They want to CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

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and they are paying a hell of a lot more than the rest of us. And beyond the 15%. they are still paying the additional taxes us common folks are paying,
No they don't. They get all sorts of breaks you don't know about because you can't take advantage of them. Didn't you hear about the private jet tax breaks? Look at how they skirt property taxes - This Tax Day, 'Farms' Owned by the Rich Provide Massive Tax Shelter | The Nation

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and more importantly, they are directly responsible for creating a much larger tax base through the corporations, employment, production, and sales of goods/services.
So just where in the hell are all the jobs with the low taxes they have been paying since the Bush tax cuts???

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How are we hammering anyone on food stamps? they aren't paying any taxes to begin with! all they are doing is taking our money. and those that are in that bracket that DO actually work, are probably getting refunds back that are GREATER than what they paid in! that's the crock of shit here.
Republicans want to curtail these programs. Sounds like a hammering to me.

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You're not going to get me to fixate on 15%. so the guy made $30m. wtf cares? yes, I think that dude paying $4.5 m in taxes has paid WAY more than his fair share to the .gov. he certainly did not use anywhere near those kinds of resources from the .gov, so why hammer him any more?
This is very short sighted thinking. You really believe these people making this kind of money are not using a ton of resources from the government? Take a McDonald's franchise owner for example. He pays his workers minimum wage while reeling in all the profits. He doesn't insure his employees, he leave that up to the government through Medicaid. He doesn't pay them enough so his employees qualify for food stamps and reduced housing. How much money is this franchise owner costing the government because he wants to pay himself so much more than his workers? The wealthy rely on the government to expend all sorts of resources to their under paid work force.

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I don't think taxes should be profession specific either, but how the hell are the holllywood and professional sports people any less evil than corporate America? they don't contribute shit, and they are the reason entertainment prices are so high.
Yea, the people that own the studios and foot ball teams aren't anywhere close to being as wealthy as their movie stars and football players.

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and your last sentence hits to the larger problem. I agree, i'd love to be wealthy enough to have tax problems. but you and I are in the minority. most would rather the $7 an hour or unemployment so they can continue to suck our tits. the entitlement generation.
I sincerely doubt anyone would turn rich down so they can "suck our tits".
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:30pm   #47
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By the way, at $15 an hour, all of your employees with families would qualify for medicare, HUD housing and food stamps.
...which is F**KING pathetic.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:38pm   #48
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Let's face it Joe. you won't be happy until people doing mindless, menial tasks are getting paid the exact same amount as the CEO.

About 100' from where I am sitting right now are union workers who are making almost $50 an hour, + health benefits, + retirement, + + + + + to put in screws with air tools. My 7 year old nephew could do what they do. $50/hr to do a minimum wage job.

Can you really not see how things like that force companies overseas?
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Old 10-13-2011, 1:39pm   #49
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Let's face it Joe. you won't be happy until people doing mindless, menial tasks are getting paid the exact same amount as the CEO.

About 100' from where I am sitting right now are union workers who are making almost $50 an hour, + health benefits, + retirement, + + + + + to put in screws with air tools. My 7 year old nephew could do what they do. $50/hr to do a minimum wage job.

Can you really not see how things like that force companies overseas?
Unions are at their weakest since WW2. They are not the primary issue.

Besides, union pay wasn't an issue until corporations forced politicians into free trade agreements. Now companies get tax credits for firing Americans and employing Chinese.
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Old 10-13-2011, 1:48pm   #50
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Unions are at their weakest since WW2. They are not the primary issue.

Besides, union pay wasn't an issue until corporations forced politicians into free trade agreements. Now companies get tax credits for firing Americans and employing Chinese.
So just to be clear... you see no problem with a company being forced to pay unskilled workers insane amounts of money plus benefits because they are part of a union?
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Old 10-13-2011, 1:56pm   #51
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So just to be clear... you see no problem with a company being forced to pay unskilled workers insane amounts of money plus benefits because they are part of a union?
Companies are not forced to do anything. They enter into agreements with the unions.

I might also add that even if you are not a member of a union, if you are in an industry that has a union your employer will often times offer comparable union wages and benefits just to keep the union out.

Unions built the American middle class and were at their strongest when America was its strongest. That's undeniable.
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Old 10-13-2011, 1:58pm   #52
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Companies are not forced to do anything.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:01pm   #53
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Unions built the American middle class and were at their strongest when America was its strongest. That's undeniable.
There was a time and a place for unions. 2011 America is not that time. They went from being advocates for worker's rights to being advocates for themselves to make money... nothing more.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:28pm   #54
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There was a time and a place for unions. 2011 America is not that time. They went from being advocates for worker's rights to being advocates for themselves to make money... nothing more.
I think these protest show that unions are needed now more than at any point in the last 75 years.

I suspect we will see a resurgence of unions in this country. Its going to take unions to close these corporate loop holes and stop exporting jobs.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:31pm   #55
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So Phil, even if all loopholes were closed, where do you think corporations will get the money to pay their taxes? Out of their profits?
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:39pm   #56
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So we can agree the system is fcuked and the wealthy are using it to their advantage. Great! Now you see why I am supporting these protesters. They want to CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

No they don't. They get all sorts of breaks you don't know about because you can't take advantage of them. Didn't you hear about the private jet tax breaks? Look at how they skirt property taxes - This Tax Day, 'Farms' Owned by the Rich Provide Massive Tax Shelter | The Nation

So just where in the hell are all the jobs with the low taxes they have been paying since the Bush tax cuts???

Republicans want to curtail these programs. Sounds like a hammering to me.

This is very short sighted thinking. You really believe these people making this kind of money are not using a ton of resources from the government? Take a McDonald's franchise owner for example. He pays his workers minimum wage while reeling in all the profits. He doesn't insure his employees, he leave that up to the government through Medicaid. He doesn't pay them enough so his employees qualify for food stamps and reduced housing. How much money is this franchise owner costing the government because he wants to pay himself so much more than his workers? The wealthy rely on the government to expend all sorts of resources to their under paid work force.

Yea, the people that own the studios and foot ball teams aren't anywhere close to being as wealthy as their movie stars and football players.

I sincerely doubt anyone would turn rich down so they can "suck our tits".
there's no point in furthering this discussion and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

on your last note, though, you're right. nobody will turn down rich to suck our tits, so long as its given to them. show me those that will work for it. generation entitlement.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:45pm   #57
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So Phil, even if all loopholes were closed, where do you think corporations will get the money to pay their taxes? Out of their profits?
Yes. Corporate profits are at all time highs.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:52pm   #58
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Unions never embraced the fact that sweat is only worth so much.
When others will sweat for less, that's where you go. (shrugs)

No damn body in America is "owed" a job.
The flip side is anyone can have an idea, make a ton of money and get rich and goofy. (see Warren Buffet)
That's what makes capitalism so awesome.
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Old 10-13-2011, 2:56pm   #59
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Occupy Wall Street now much more popular than Tea Party.

Occupy Wall Street: More Popular than the Tea Party | Swampland | TIME.com
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Old 10-13-2011, 3:59pm   #60
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Yes. Corporate profits are at all time highs.


They are just going to pass on those taxes to the consumer. Why is it that you can't comprehend that?
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