The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

And you called me a socialist the other day,,,

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Does anyone else want to grab a case of soda and go on a road trip with Oliver, or is it just me?

He has always been, and will remain a solid DOOD, a real car guy with a proven history.

With that said, he is the highest flyer of the telsa flag on the forums, he will never concede, playing the game with him is better than most threads.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Yes. By all means. Use all of your insight to tell the guy that owned a dealership in the time that that shit was happening how much things didn't go up.

More profit???? Yes, that's exactly why close to 50% of auto dealers in the US went out of business in a 4 year span.

If you actually believe that, you really are an absolute f**king idiot.

Please link up where NEW CAR dealerships went out of business???

Yes, many car dealers went out of business but it was usually high inventory used car dealers because they bought the cars expensive and then the prices dropped and they were sitting on an inventory worth a fraction of what they paid for the cars. That really doesn't apply to new car dealers.
I can't recall any of my local DEALERSHIPS (not used car lots) going out of business in the last couple of years.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Another one with a fake price..

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

How is it a “fake price”?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Nothing went up for them. They cashed in more profit because demand was high and inventory was low. They are now selling the same cars for under MSRP with no mark ups becuause demand it low. Their "COST" didn't change much. They just took advantage of low inventory and high demand to jack up their prices.

You must understand that the supply shortage meant less units to sell. Meanwhile the costs of the business was the same or more.
So the business will take advantage of the market to offset the lower unit inventory.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

How is it a “fake price”?

Because that's not the price you pay if you don't have a trade (for which they will give you crap and if you don't finance with them for a high rate)
Actual price is advertised price +$3k

All new vehicles include a $2000 trade-in assistance dealer discount and a $1000 financing discount. This price requires a trade less than 7 model years old and 120,00 miles or less. Oxford White 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning Pro AWD Single-Speed Automatic Electric Motor BLUETOOTH, MP3- USB / I-POD READY, USB ADAPTER, SATELLITE RADIO / SIRIUS XM, NAVIGATION GPS NAV, MOONROOF SUNROOF, REARVIEW / BACKUP CAMERA, COOLED A/C VENTILATED SEATS, SERVICE RECORDS AVAILABLE, REMAINDER OF FACTORY WARRANTY, HEATED SEATS, ALL WHEEL DRIVE, FOUR WHEEL DRIVE 4WD.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

BTW, there is also something called FAIR MARKET RENT for houses just like there is a MSRP for cars. I NEVER charge anyone above FAIR MARKET RENT just like dealerships should not charge over MSRP.

Show us where Florida has this “fair market rent” requirement. Which in effect is rent control.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Because that's not the price you pay if you don't have a trade (for which they will give you crap and if you don't finance with them for a high rate)
Actual price is advertised price +$3k

It is not a fake price. The details are clearly defined.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Please link up where NEW CAR dealerships went out of business???

Yes, many car dealers went out of business but it was usually high inventory used car dealers because they bought the cars expensive and then the prices dropped and they were sitting on an inventory worth a fraction of what they paid for the cars. That really doesn't apply to new car dealers.
I can't recall any of my local DEALERSHIPS (not used car lots) going out of business in the last couple of years.

Used car prices were at an all time high during the supply shortages.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

While your scenario is shitty, this part is true. Unless you want to pay a deposit, if you walk out the door... tough shit. What percentage of people who say they will be back... actually come back? At a minimum, you should ask how long this quote is good for (personally, I'd never give more than a day, and even thin I'd add the caveat that someone else coming along could change it.)

I've had people come back a month later, pissed that something was gone that they were going to "think about".

I wanted to pay then with a personal check, but they demanded a cashier's check. Since I was unable to shit a cashier's check, I had to leave for at least some time, and it was late in the day so the banks were already closed. We were there by 10 am the next day, not like we dawdled around for a month. If they were afraid I wouldn't come back, they could have asked for a $500 cash deposit, or hit my credit card for $1000 or SOMETHING, but they never even mentioned a deposit. So instead, they decided to be douche bags.

A few days later, the sales manager called me and said he would "honor the deal", more or less an admission that they tried to screw me on the day. Luckily I was in a good mood, and just politely said "no thank you", and kept my personal opinionn of what kind of business man he was to myself.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Please link up where NEW CAR dealerships went out of business???

Yes, many car dealers went out of business but it was usually high inventory used car dealers because they bought the cars expensive and then the prices dropped and they were sitting on an inventory worth a fraction of what they paid for the cars. That really doesn't apply to new car dealers.
I can't recall any of my local DEALERSHIPS (not used car lots) going out of business in the last couple of years.

It had absolutely nothing to do with sitting on inventory. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. The much bigger damages came when inventory was at it's lowest, and despite what you think, income < expenses.

An absolutely overwhelming number of franchise dealerships, the ones that didn't close, changed hands. Why? The mid-sized ones were the hardest hit. They may not be closed, but I am absolutely certain that even within your tiny little bubble that you seem to think represents the entire universe, many of them are now under a larger umbrella and dealer "groups" (even if you don't know it) because they were forced to sell out at massive losses to the bigger companies that had enough financial backing to take advantage of it. The original owners are out on their asses. How many 1-off dealerships, as in a dealership independently owned and operated as opposed to part of an "auto group" or some similar term do you know of? Almost none. They're all gone... and you didn't even notice. There is no more "XXXX Chevrolet" that stands on it's own. There is now "YYYY Auto Group that owns what used to be XXXX Chevrolet"

The smaller dealerships... they were just completely f**ked.

I could show exactly that, but I'm not going to. I've presented you with facts many many times. Not once has any of it managed to get through to you. Believe it or not. I genuinely don't care. At best, even if I did prove you wrong, you'll just deflect to something else... like you just did when you managed to blow up (in spectacular fashion I might add) your own argument by not realizing that "fair market" and MSRP are not the same thing. By admitting that you did EXACTLY what you were claiming was unethical from car dealers. Followed by a deflection about buying Tesla.

The last sentence of my post stands on it's own. You clearly have absolutely no f**king clue about this industry. Nothing I could say and no amount of facts is going to change that.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

You must understand that the supply shortage meant less units to sell. Meanwhile the costs of the business was the same or more.
So the business will take advantage of the market to offset the lower unit inventory.

Before and after the supply chain crisis, cars would sell BELOW MSRP. I have no issue actually paying MSRP during the supply chain crisis, just not above it. They would still get more for the cars than they used to, just not obscene amounts.
In the end, all the customers who paid those mark ups got screwed. They now own cars that are worth a fraction of what they paid for.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Mick

I wanted to pay then with a personal check, but they demanded a cashier's check. Since I was unable to shit a cashier's check, I had to leave for at least some time, and it was late in the day so the banks were already closed. We were there by 10 am the next day, not like we dawdled around for a month. If they were afraid I wouldn't come back, they could have asked for a $500 cash deposit, or hit my credit card for $1000 or SOMETHING, but they never even mentioned a deposit. So instead, they decided to be douche bags.

A few days later, the sales manager called me and said he would "honor the deal", more or less an admission that they tried to screw me on the day. Luckily I was in a good mood, and just politely said "no thank you", and kept my personal opinionn of what kind of business man he was to myself.

Sounds like a pretty douche move. I'll give you that one. I'm not about to defend all dealers. Hell, I dislike most of them myself, but a whole lot of the hate is just based on stupidity. Certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

It had absolutely nothing to do with sitting on inventory. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. The much bigger damages came when inventory was at it's lowest, and despite what you think, income < expenses.

An absolutely overwhelming number of franchise dealerships, the ones that didn't close, changed hands. Why? The mid-sized ones were the hardest hit. They may not be closed, but I am absolutely certain that even within your tiny little bubble that you seem to think represents the entire universe, many of them are now under a larger umbrella and dealer "groups" (even if you don't know it) because they were forced to sell out at massive losses to the bigger companies that had enough financial backing to take advantage of it. The original owners are out on their asses. How many 1-off dealerships, as in a dealership independently owned and operated as opposed to part of an "auto group" or some similar term do you know of? Almost none. They're all gone... and you didn't even notice. There is no more "XXXX Chevrolet" that stands on it's own. There is now "YYYY Auto Group that owns what used to be XXXX Chevrolet"

The smaller dealerships... they were just completely f**ked.

I could show exactly that, but I'm not going to. I've presented you with facts many many times. Not once has any of it managed to get through to you. Believe it or not. I genuinely don't care. At best, even if I did prove you wrong, you'll just deflect to something else... like you just did when you managed to blow up (in spectacular fashion I might add) your own argument by not realizing that "fair market" and MSRP are not the same thing. By admitting that you did EXACTLY what you were claiming was unethical from car dealers. Followed by a deflection about buying Tesla.

The last sentence of my post stands on it's own. You clearly have absolutely no f**king clue about this industry. Nothing I could say and no amount of facts is going to change that.

Indeed. I did notice that many (most) new car dealerships have become part of a large dealer group that has multiple brands and multiple locations.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

In the end, all the customers who paid those mark ups got screwed. They now own cars that are worth a fraction of what they paid for.

...and in your mind that's the fault of the DEALERS who charged exactly what the market dictated as opposed to the idiots who went and bought shit at the dumbest possible time to buy shit?

Come on man. Again, you aren't actually that stupid.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Before and after the supply chain crisis, cars would sell BELOW MSRP. I have no issue actually paying MSRP during the supply chain crisis, just not above it. They would still get more for the cars than they used to, just not obscene amounts.
In the end, all the customers who paid those mark ups got screwed. They now own cars that are worth a fraction of what they paid for.

It’s as if you completely ignored my post because your reply doesn’t address my point.

And every new car is worth a fraction of what the buyer paid.

Btw-
What is your position on those private sellers who sold during the shortage and run up of used pricing for more than they paid in many cases.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by LATB

Indeed. I did notice that many (most) new car dealerships have become part of a large dealer group that has multiple brands and multiple locations.

I personally don't know of a single independent franchise dealer that survived. There are certainly none in the Cincinnati area. Even as recently as 10 years ago that would have made up a large majority.

10 years ago there were 8 individual Motorcycle dealerships in the Greater Cincinnati area. Today there are 0. The only 1 that somewhat survived has changed almost completely into a niche race shop as opposed to sales. Personally, I sold out to Polaris about 6 months before the remainder either closed or sold out to 1 of the 2 corporations that came in and didn't give them a choice.

But yea, dealerships were just raking in those unethical profits...

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Before and after the supply chain crisis, cars would sell BELOW MSRP. I have no issue actually paying MSRP during the supply chain crisis, just not above it. They would still get more for the cars than they used to, just not obscene amounts.
In the end, all the customers who paid those mark ups got screwed. They now own cars that are worth a fraction of what they paid for.

Kind of like your X.

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I personally don't know of a single independent franchise dealer that survived. There are certainly none in the Cincinnati area. Even as recently as 10 years ago that would have made up a large majority.

10 years ago there were 8 individual Motorcycle dealerships in the Greater Cincinnati area. Today there are 0. The only 1 that somewhat survived has changed almost completely into a niche race shop as opposed to sales. Personally, I sold out to Polaris about 6 months before the remainder either closed or sold out to 1 of the 2 corporations that came in and didn't give them a choice.

But yea, dealerships were just raking in those unethical profits...

I can't think of any here, either. In a way it's kind of nice being able to shop several different makes from one dealer but it really sucks for any sort of competition. Hopefully the dealers that were bought out didn't get buttucked too badly.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by sublime1996525

Hopefully the dealers that were bought out didn't get buttucked too badly.

Unfortunately, I think you know better.

If you're at a point where you're hemorrhaging money (as they all were) and the guy that has the financial backing knows you don't have a choice... the lucky ones are now employees and "managing" the dealerships that they owned a few years ago.

Despite the claim from that 1 guy that the evil dealers were raking in all of those profits, the reality is that entire independent automotive dealer industry was absolutely decimated in a 5 year span and replaced by nothing but large corporations. They're all gone. And the crazy part is that nobody even noticed.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

...and in your mind that's the fault of the DEALERS who charged exactly what the market dictated as opposed to the idiots who went and bought shit at the dumbest possible time to buy shit?

Come on man. Again, you aren't actually that stupid.

You are probably ok with gas stations charging $10 per gallon before a Hurricane hits, right?? It's virtually the same to me. Everyone wants to fill up before the storm and gas stations ran out of gas. Therefore, gas stations ended up gouging the prices, charging an outrageous price. Luckily here in Florida, legislation stepped in and prohibited that.. They should pass a bill prohibiting price gouging when it comes to new cars as well.