This Confederate flag controversy is moronic...

[island14]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

We do living histories at battlefield parks. We can't display a Confederate flag anymore. The gift shops are no longer allowed to sell merchandise with a flag on it. ANY group can have specialty tags made and recv. part of the profit from the state. The SCV was doing this in several states and now are being prohibited.

Now that is way beyond stupid..

What your people do is try to recreate history as accurately as you can for those events.. even down to the buttons on your shirt, will those be outlawed next?

What's next.. Hollywood wont be allowed to use the flag for movies about the Civil War?

[Grey Ghost]

Originally Posted by aerovette

Just a bit of clarification. The removal of items bearing the flag (confederate/rebel/whatever) is a request by the National Park Service and is (so far) voluntary.

Nope. There was a direct order to remove it. I have a friend that works at Kennesaw battlefield.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

Nope. There was a direct order to remove it. I have a friend that works at Kennesaw battlefield.

That contradicts what I just saw minutes ago on the news. Are you certain that directive came from the NPS or did it come from gift shop management?

National Park Service Asks Retailers to Stop Confederate Flag Sales

[Grey Ghost]

Washington (CNN) – The National Park Service on Wednesday asked its bookstore and gift shop vendors to remove standalone Confederate flag items from their shelves… "With this particular flag, the connotation is that because it represents the Confederacy that fought on the side of succession and slavery it can be viewed as a racist symbol," said National Park Service spokeswoman Kathy Kupper.

The service is asking vendors to remove products that solely feature the flag as a symbol, like a Confederate flag pin or belt buckle. Gifts and souvenirs that include the flag — a book with the Union and Confederate flags on the cover, for instance — would remain because, Kupper said, it puts the Confederate flag "in the context of history."

Those other items can remain ‘for now.’

A non-profit that runs the gift shop at the Ft. Sumter [sic!] National Monument in South Carolina began pulling flag items from shelves on Monday. Eastern National is removing the flag items from its stores in 159 other national parks and the park service is asking its other vendors to follow Eastern National’s lead, Kupper said. While the request is unprecedented, Kupper said, park officials expect its more than 70 vendors to comply.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

Washington (CNN) – The National Park Service on Wednesday asked its bookstore and gift shop vendors to remove standalone Confederate flag items from their shelves… "With this particular flag, the connotation is that because it represents the Confederacy that fought on the side of succession and slavery it can be viewed as a racist symbol," said National Park Service spokeswoman Kathy Kupper.

The service is asking vendors to remove products that solely feature the flag as a symbol, like a Confederate flag pin or belt buckle. Gifts and souvenirs that include the flag — a book with the Union and Confederate flags on the cover, for instance — would remain because, Kupper said, it puts the Confederate flag "in the context of history."

Those other items can remain ‘for now.’

A non-profit that runs the gift shop at the Ft. Sumter [sic!] National Monument in South Carolina began pulling flag items from shelves on Monday. Eastern National is removing the flag items from its stores in 159 other national parks and the park service is asking its other vendors to follow Eastern National’s lead, Kupper said. While the request is unprecedented, Kupper said, park officials expect its more than 70 vendors to comply.

The key word is "asked".

[Aerovette]

The request was voluntary

Please seems to be the word of the day from the National Park Service, which is asking but not requiring that its associated retailers join a growing effort to stop the sale of Confederate flags and related products in the aftermath of the Charleston church massacre.

According to the Washington Post, spokeswoman Kathy Kupper wrote in an email Wednesday that “The National Park Service is asking its cooperating associations, concessions, and partners to voluntarily withdraw sales in their stores of Confederate flags and other items, such as stickers, that depict the Confederate flag as a stand-alone feature.”

The request comes after major U.S. retailers—including Walmart, Amazon, Sears, and eBay—pledged this week to stop selling Confederate flag-themed merchandise. A number of small and large retailers have pulled Confederate-related products from their offerings in response to mounting pressure after pictures of the man charged in the killings of nine black people emerged, showing him posing with the flag.

If successful, the request could have wide-reaching effects. The National Park Service is entrusted with the care of more than 400 parks across the nation, and its response to the Post noted more than 70 of them—including cemeteries, homes and other sites—”have resources that are related to the history of the Civil War.”

[Washington Post]

   

[Bill]

Originally Posted by aerovette

The key word is "asked".

What happens when the vendor refuses? Think things are going to go well for the vendor? Think that vendor's contract will be renewed? Think the vendor will not be harrassed over ticky-tack minutia?

Think of the term request as the CF version of "directive."

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

What happens when the vendor refuses? Think things are going to go well for the vendor? Think that vendor's contract will be renewed? Think the vendor will not be harrassed over ticky-tack minutia?

Think of the term request as the CF version of "directive."

Oh I agree. That was what I was saying about being "allowed" to do something but making so it will never be in your best interest. It preserves the Constitutional freedom, but provides a subtle "forced" compliance.

Hell in a handbasket I tell ya. I'm starting to feel like a Jew in Germany just before the war.

[Czarvette]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

What happens when the vendor refuses? Think things are going to go well for the vendor? Think that vendor's contract will be renewed? Think the vendor will not be harrassed over ticky-tack minutia?

Think of the term request as the CF version of "directive."

The visiting public likely is unaware of or cares about fine distinctions such as "vendor" vs "National Park Service." To the public what's in the gift shop is part of the Park Service's face to the public and is there with the approval of the Park Service.

So, the Park Service should care about what's in the gift shop. Asking is a reasonable thing to do. The vendor may refuse. Actions have consequences. That's business.

Consider this: the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is in Washington, D.C. It
is an independent establishment of the United States Government chartered and directly funded by Congress, operating under the auspices of a board of trustees appointed by Congress.

There is a Museum Shop that undoubtedly sells various kinds of memorabilia and educational products relating to The Holocaust and perhaps World War II more generally. I speculate that the Museum Shop is operated by a vendor under contract to the Museum.

Should the shop be able to sell commemorative swastika flags if it so chooses?

Would it be reasonable for the board of trustees to ask the Shop to stop, or is this government bullying?

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by Hoog

Hating the south because of slavery is like not wanting to own a C7 solely because of the taillights.


A good read

From your link;

Your opinion better be the exact same as mine or you don't have the right to have it.

Nowhere is that more true than right here at good old VBOT.

[CropDuster]

Getting back to the social media thing. The most ****ed up stuff I've seen is on facebook, where blacks or SJWs are threatening to call people's employers and such whenever they've posted comments that are pro flag on local news articles. The "you're a racist trump card" and the potential trouble it can cause for someone makes these issues very one sided.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Czarvette

The visiting public likely is unaware of or cares about fine distinctions such as "vendor" vs "National Park Service." To the public what's in the gift shop is part of the Park Service's face to the public and is there with the approval of the Park Service.

So, the Park Service should care about what's in the gift shop. Asking is a reasonable thing to do. The vendor may refuse. Actions have consequences. That's business.

Consider this: the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is in Washington, D.C. It
is an independent establishment of the United States Government chartered and directly funded by Congress, operating under the auspices of a board of trustees appointed by Congress.

There is a Museum Shop that undoubtedly sells various kinds of memorabilia and educational products relating to The Holocaust and perhaps World War II more generally. I speculate that the Museum Shop is operated by a vendor under contract to the Museum.

Should the shop be able to sell commemorative swastika flags if it so chooses?

Would it be reasonable for the board of trustees to ask the Shop to stop, or is this government bullying?

There are many differences between the Holocaust and slavery that make it pretty easy to understand why swastika flags are a different animal.

[Czarvette]

Originally Posted by aerovette

There are many differences between the Holocaust and slavery that make it pretty easy to understand why swastika flags are a different animal.

Please explain.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Czarvette

Please explain.

Southern plantation owners did not want to commit genocide. Nor did they place any blame on blacks for any ills the country suffered. Slaves were a commodity. They needed them to generate income from their crops. Slaves built the pyramids, slavery has been around long before the US and it was a very slow lesson for mankind to realize they cannot own another man. Southerners did not decide to gather up free negroes and enslave them when a new regime came in to power.

The Nazis hated the Jews and blamed them for the ills of their country. They wanted them eliminated. They had no value in their eyes. They were free one day and being collected and killed the next (figuratively speaking).

Jews did not imprison other Jews for monetary gain as African blacks did when trading/selling other blacks to slave traders.

I can add more if needed but the Nazi flag represents far more than atrocities to Jews. It represents a madman that wanted world domination. Southerners did not want world domination, they simply wanted to be left alone.

Slavery is an event that represents a place in time. At that time, it was not perceived as wrong. We lived, we learned. There was a time that Mercury was used as a medicine and X-ray machines were used to fit shoes. We did not know better.

Nazis knew better. It was not a "way of life" it was a derisive move of created hatred for a people that became scapegoats.

Vastly different representations by the two flags. Nazis have nothing they can look back on with pride. Nothing. Southerners were successful, prideful, most wealthy, land/farm owners wanting to preserve a system that worked for them as long as settlements existed in the country.

Nazis served one lunatic in power.
Southerners served the south and themselves.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Czarvette

The visiting public likely is unaware of or cares about fine distinctions such as "vendor" vs "National Park Service." To the public what's in the gift shop is part of the Park Service's face to the public and is there with the approval of the Park Service.

So, the Park Service should care about what's in the gift shop. Asking is a reasonable thing to do. The vendor may refuse. Actions have consequences. That's business.

Consider this: the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is in Washington, D.C. It
is an independent establishment of the United States Government chartered and directly funded by Congress, operating under the auspices of a board of trustees appointed by Congress.

There is a Museum Shop that undoubtedly sells various kinds of memorabilia and educational products relating to The Holocaust and perhaps World War II more generally. I speculate that the Museum Shop is operated by a vendor under contract to the Museum.

Should the shop be able to sell commemorative swastika flags if it so chooses?

Would it be reasonable for the board of trustees to ask the Shop to stop, or is this government bullying?

The US government should indeed have final say about what gets sold in those gift shops. Having said that, the US government shouldn't be squelching the sale of that merchandise now.

As with other things, the free market should be deciding what gets sold. If it turns out that Nazi flags sell well at the holocaust museum, then they should sell them there. (Been there, BTW).

If we want to talk about things that are inappropriate, having a gift shop at a museum documenting human suffering seems inappropriate to me. I'm not up in arms, though, calling for that gift shop to be closed.

[Aerovette]

Bill truer words do not exist. The market determines whether an item should or should not be sold. I have said that for a very long time. You can tax the shit out of cigarettes until they are 50 buck a pack and they will STILL sell.

You can't legislate things like this. I also agree that as awful as it is, if they sell ONE Nazi flag at the holocaust museum, then that is bad money for a good use.

Let the parks sell the damn rebel flag and give the money to black charity if it eases the conscience. I'll bet it won't be turned down.

That would be an interesting social experiment.

A shelf full of rebel flags and a sign stating 100% of the money made from the sale of the flags will go to the NAACP. Do you think the checks would be returned?

[Czarvette]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

The US government should indeed have final say about what gets sold in those gift shops. Having said that, the US government shouldn't be squelching the sale of that merchandise now.

As with other things, the free market should be deciding what gets sold. If it turns out that Nazi flags sell well at the holocaust museum, then they should sell them there. (Been there, BTW).

If we want to talk about things that are inappropriate, having a gift shop at a museum documenting human suffering seems inappropriate to me. I'm not up in arms, though, calling for that gift shop to be closed.

??

Which is it?

[Czarvette]

Originally Posted by aerovette

Bill truer words do not exist. The market determines whether an item should or should not be sold. I have said that for a very long time. You can tax the shit out of cigarettes until they are 50 buck a pack and they will STILL sell.

You can't legislate things like this. I also agree that as awful as it is, if they sell ONE Nazi flag at the holocaust museum, then that is bad money for a good use.

Let the parks sell the damn rebel flag and give the money to black charity if it eases the conscience. I'll bet it won't be turned down.

That would be an interesting social experiment.

A shelf full of rebel flags and a sign stating 100% of the money made from the sale of the flags will go to the NAACP. Do you think the checks would be returned?

I gotta admit, that's a creative solution. I like it.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Czarvette

??

Which is it?

Good catch!

The government should have control, but it shouldn't abuse that control....like when the govt. shut down occurred, and federal employees were sent out to block highway frontage to keep people from stopping to view Mt. Rushmore.

Pulling the Confederate merchandise, in a kneejerk reaction to foment divisiveness in America is not what our Park Service should be doing. Certain parts of government are supposed to be non political.....the Park Service is one of them. Pub, Dem, Libertarian, Green, Communist.....all should be able to enjoy our national parks.

[Aerovette]

Southern civil war soldiers are about to get treated like returning Vietnam Vets.

If this trend continues and all civil war monuments etc actually get removed and the entire chapter in our history gets "erased" I can live with that under one condition. If we have to forget it happened, so do they.