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Old 08-27-2010, 5:59am   #41
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Some replace an O2, and some stick a sensor up the pipe.
My thinking on the placement of the sensor is the same as yours. If its in the X-pipe, it will be reading both banks, rather than one. When I finally get around to installing mine, thats where it's going.
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Old 08-27-2010, 6:21am   #42
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But do you have cats?
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Old 08-27-2010, 6:18pm   #43
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When you tune a car that doesn't already have a wideband do you just stick a sensor up the tailpipe or do you replace one of the existing O2 sensors while you tune?

Also, I want to install a wideband on my coupe but am a little confused on where to mount it. Some people say in the X pipe which sounds good to me but the manufacturer and a lot of other people say it needs to go before the cat (I have LG hi-flo cats). If I put it before the cat I worry that it will only be reading one bank. What should I do?

I'm putting the wideband in because I am adding a nitrous kit to the car if that matters.

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Don't take this to the bank, but this is what I have read on the internet and that has to be factual because it is on the internet.

The wideband is supposed to be installed before the cats (between cat and headers). When being tuned with a probe in the tailpipe it isn't as accurate.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...LM1_Manual.pdf

Think about what the catalytic converter does.

HowStuffWorks "What is a catalytic converter and how does it work?"

"A catalytic converter is a device that uses a catalyst to convert three harmful compounds in car exhaust into harmless compounds."

If you have a wideband in after the cats, it is not reading the actual output of your engine. For example, if you are running rich the cat will try to burn off the excess gas and your wideband will not report the actual engine output.

You can you tune with a wideband after the cats or in the tailpipe it just woun't be as accruate.

Or you could do it the easy way, take it down to Ed @c VA Speed.
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Old 08-27-2010, 6:47pm   #44
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I ordered my wideband yesterday and I don't want to have to pull a header off to install it. Like I stated earlier I worry that I will only be reading one bank. I was hoping Ed would see this and give me his professional opinion and hopefully I am just worrying too much about the bank thing. I also wonder if there is already a bung in my headers or pipes that I can use but I'm too lazy to jack it up and look under there.

Dammit... BRB
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Old 08-27-2010, 7:04pm   #45
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OK, so where the F am I supposed to mount this thing? The cats pretty much cover the collector and I can't put it in a single tube.

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Old 08-27-2010, 7:09pm   #46
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You can put it after the cats if those bungs are unused.

It's an oxygen sensor, not a gas analyzer. Cats do not create oxygen.


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Old 08-27-2010, 7:18pm   #47
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You can put it after the cats if those bungs are unused.

It's an oxygen sensor, not a gas analyzer. Cats do not create oxygen.
BUT! The company and everyone says do not put after the cats!

I'm just tellin ya what they say. I'm gettin a little frustrated with this whole thing.

Maybe just remove the cats?

On a side note: Stainless clamps should have stainless bolts, just sayin.
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Old 08-27-2010, 7:41pm   #48
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I guess I see it like this:

Anytime you see a dynograph posted on the net with afr line included, most were done so via a probe in the tailpipe. Are all of those cars catless? And if not, why does everyone seemingly love to scrutinize afr if those sensing methods were deemed bogus to begin with?

Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.


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Old 08-27-2010, 7:44pm   #49
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BUT! The company and everyone says do not put after the cats!

I'm just tellin ya what they say. I'm gettin a little frustrated with this whole thing.

Maybe just remove the cats?

On a side note: Stainless clamps should have stainless bolts, just sayin.
Removing the cats would work. Search CF and Google, a lot of info posted about this subject. Call Ed, he tunes in his sleep.

I am no expert on this topic, but believe what I have been told by many sources.
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Old 08-27-2010, 7:54pm   #50
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Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.
Good point, the sole purpose is to hook it to my nitrous controller so if it goes lean or rich during a spray it will shut down the nitrous before the motor goes boom. I guess if I calibrate the controller during normal operation then it would still see a dangerous change and do it's job.

I'd offer you a cookie for your sage advice but there's been enough cookie teasing around here for the time being.

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Old 08-27-2010, 9:08pm   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Kvert4me View Post
I guess I see it like this:

Anytime you see a dynograph posted on the net with afr line included, most were done so via a probe in the tailpipe. Are all of those cars catless? And if not, why does everyone seemingly love to scrutinize afr if those sensing methods were deemed bogus to begin with?

Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.


I agree with this point, I suppose it doesn't matter if you just want an indicator that something is wrong. It is the same idea when modding and using the same dyno, we need a known baseline to see if the mods help or hurt.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:18am   #52
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Hi Guys,

Haven't been on in a while. Sorry for being a slackazz!

AS for WB location, cats, etc. Couple things to remember here. First, Aftermarket high flow cats aren't very efficient. They don't work real well when they do work. If you wanna see when they are and are not working, log your upstream and downstream O2s. When the patterns match, the cats aren't working.

Next is, tailpipe sampling with WB O2s. Under WOT the cats "turn off" so there is no real substantial difference between upstream or downstream sampling. Sure there may be a couple tenths of a point (.2) but considering we aren't using lab grade sensors and gas benches, that's close enough for government work LOL. The reason they turn off is there is too much volume running through them ,and they just can't process it.

It's also important to understand the relationship between fuel trims and catalytic converters. Most people think fuel trims oscillate in order to keep A/F around stoich. While that is a convenient side effect, they actually oscillate to alternately douse the cats with oxygen. The main job of the cats is to store and release oxygen (oxidation), the second one being reduction, which also requires oxygen.

In the first graph, you'll see 2 oscillating wave forms. The lower one is an upstream O2, the upper one being downstream. In this scenario, the cats are not working. Notice the slight time delay from the upstream to downstream reaction.



In this second one, this is in decel mode, and fuel cut off. You can see the distinct delay from the upstream to downstream reaction.



In this graph, we have an operational cat. Notice the downstream flat line. What would appear to be a "rich" condition reported by the downstream O2 (higher than .500mv) is actually what it should be showing. Remember it's an OXYGEN sensor. It can only report what leftover O2 it sees. Also remember it's the job of the cats to store oxygen. So, in this case, the sensor is reporting an OXYGEN DEFICIENT condition, which is what it should be when the cats are working.



The main reason that aftermarket headers and cats set P0420/P0430 codes is because the cats don't work well, and the computer ends up seeing a pattern most similar to the top graph.

Graphs courtesy of edcmat-l1's former days as an emissions/diagnostics specialist LOL
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:27am   #53
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Did you just say to put the wideband in the X-Pipe? That's what I heard but I wanna make sure.
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Old 09-19-2010, 4:12pm   #54
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Quote:
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Did you just say to put the wideband in the X-Pipe? That's what I heard but I wanna make sure.
LOL It'll be fine there. It was more to the point of don't be afraid of tail pipe readings at WOT.
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:18am   #55
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Default Tune or not?

Ed: I have a 2001 vert with mn6, corsa exhaust and a vararam intake added. I'm considering a tune to help it run better. I don't ever plan on draging it or tracking it but do hit 120-140mph on the highway from time to time when traffic(or lack of) permits. Mostly a weekend cruiser...in nice weather!

Is there any reason to get a tune and what should I expect to achieve if I get one? And do I need an appointment to have it done? Thanks.

Bill
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Old 10-27-2010, 9:34am   #56
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I visited Va Speed this morning and have an appointment for a tune on Tuesday next week. We'll see how that works out.
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Old 10-28-2010, 6:04am   #57
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Ed tuned my C4/LT4 a couple of weeke ago and I am very pleased. You will be pleased
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:03am   #58
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Glad to hear that. Thanks.

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