Malaysia Air Airliner missing

[Kevin_73]

Originally Posted by 69camfrk

That is absolutely true, and nothing can be ruled out. Generally if that happens though, the circuit breaker for the probe will pop. Everything is redundant on aircraft. Also, fuel on many aircraft is used as a "heat sink" to cool off other fluids, etc. running through the airplane. And, as Island said, jet fuel doesn't burn for crap under "normal" circumstances. TWA flight had full fuel tanks which obviously doesn't leave a lot of room for fuel vapors which are more easily ignitable. This plane that just went missing has already passed up WTF status. Even if it came apart in mid air, a debris field should've been spotted already.

Wrong!

As I recall.
The center fuel tank on TWA 800 was nearly empty.
The center fuel tank was located in very close proximity to the air conditioners.
TWA 800 was delayed on the tarmac waiting to take off, and it was a very hot summer day.

Hot jet fuel creates vapor that is just as volatile as gasoline.

I remember watching the news reports immediately following that crash, and I remember very well how many eyewitnesses said that they saw something shooting up towards the airplane followed by an explosion.
When the NTSB report came out I was sure there was some kind of conspiracy and cover up, but I have changed my mind.
I think what the witnesses actually saw streaking upward was the airplane itself.
I think there were two explosions. The first was the center fuel tank exploding, which actually caused the fuselage to break in half just forward of the wing root. That explosion is what got the attention of so many people on the ground, and caused them to look up and witness the second explosion.

With the front half of the fuselage missing the aircraft became tail heavy and pitched up immediately, so the first thing all the witnesses saw when they looked skyward was a fiery object that was climbing rapidly.
After climbing and burning for several seconds the rear half of the plane then broke up further, and the fuel from the other (full) tanks exploded which created the massive fireball that everyone saw.

[99 pewtercoupe]

A new wrinkle in the story

NewKUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Beijing sent two delegations here Monday to probe stolen passports as reports surfaced that an Iranian man purchased the two tickets used by those passengers on the Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared Saturday off the coast of Vietnam.

Chinese diplomat Guo Shaochun arrived with a 10-member working group from the Chinese ministries of foreign affairs, transport, public security and the civil aviation administration. Earlier, a team from China's Ministry of Public Security arrived to discuss the passports with their Malaysian counterparts.

The passports, one Italian and one Austrian, were stolen in Thailand in 2012 and 2013. CNN and the Financial Times, citing Thai police, reported that an Iranian man named Kazem Ali purchased the tickets used with the passports for two friends who he said wanted to return home to Europe. The tickets were paid for in cash, the reports said.

[island14]

Originally Posted by Kevin_73

Hot jet fuel creates vapor that is just as volatile as gasoline.

No one is saying it wont burn.. just that it is hard to light... and no where as easy as gasoline.


Think Diesel Fuel

[ApexOversteer]

For those who need a visual aid.

Seconds From Disaster - TWA Flight 800 - YouTube

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by Kevin_73

With the front half of the fuselage missing the aircraft became tail heavy and pitched up immediately, so the first thing all the witnesses saw when they looked skyward was a fiery object that was climbing rapidly.
After climbing and burning for several seconds the rear half of the plane then broke up further, and the fuel from the other (full) tanks exploded which created the massive fireball that everyone saw.

I can't imagine the horror of the passengers in the back of the plane looking up and seeing the whole front of the plane being gone.

[island14]

Originally Posted by 99 pewtercoupe

A new wrinkle in the story

NewKUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Beijing sent two delegations here Monday to probe stolen passports as reports surfaced that an Iranian man purchased the two tickets used by those passengers on the Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared Saturday off the coast of Vietnam.

Chinese diplomat Guo Shaochun arrived with a 10-member working group from the Chinese ministries of foreign affairs, transport, public security and the civil aviation administration. Earlier, a team from China's Ministry of Public Security arrived to discuss the passports with their Malaysian counterparts.

The passports, one Italian and one Austrian, were stolen in Thailand in 2012 and 2013. CNN and the Financial Times, citing Thai police, reported that an Iranian man named Kazem Ali purchased the tickets used with the passports for two friends who he said wanted to return home to Europe. The tickets were paid for in cash, the reports said.

When it all comes out in the wash...

I'm going with MrVette on this one..


Surprised no one has taken claim to it yet

[onedef92]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I can't imagine the horror of the passengers in the back of the plane looking up and seeing the whole front of the plane being gone.

At that speed and altitude, I'm sure any glances were reflexively and quickly extinguished, mercifully. In similar situations, the victims are typically recovered naked or partially clothed, since clothing gets torn off due to the forces of explosive decompression. The lungs burst, too. It would be a rapid death.

[MrPeabody]

Originally Posted by island14

When it all comes out in the wash...

I'm going with MrVette on this one..


Surprised no one has taken claim to it yet

It could be that claiming responsibility would endanger their future plans.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by onedef92

At that speed and altitude, I'm sure any glances were reflexively and quickly extinguished, mercifully. In similar situations, the victims are typically recovered naked or partially clothed, since clothing gets torn off due to the forces of explosive decompression. The lungs burst, too. It would be a rapid death.

I remember when the report came out that not everyone died in the explosion. It was a disturbing read and I don't want to see it again. Especially with all the flying I have coming up over the next couple of weeks.

[onedef92]

Originally Posted by ApexOversteer

For those who need a visual aid.

Seconds From Disaster - TWA Flight 800 - YouTube

That's a good series. I think I've seen every one of those epsidodes.

[island14]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I can't imagine the horror of the passengers in the back of the plane looking up and seeing the whole front of the plane being gone.

Now that you mention it....


I have no clue how long a plane way up there takes to fall.


I'm going to guess quite awhile?

3 to 5 minutes?

Several at least I would guess.

Seems like a short time, but to put it into perspective...

To me 15 seconds is a whole lap around my old racetrack, and quite a bit can happen in just one lap.

It would be a long time to think about a short future....

[onedef92]

Originally Posted by island14

Now that you mention it....


I have no clue how long a plane way up there takes to fall.


I'm going to guess quite awhile?

3 to 5 minutes?

Several at least I would guess.

Seems like a short time, but to put it into perspective...

To me 15 seconds is a whole lap around my old racetrack, and quite a bit can happen in just one lap.

It would be a long time to think about a short future....

There is only one worse fate that I can think of than dying.....

[Rob]

Temperatures at that height would be pretty cold - not likely that they would live since 1) there is not enough oxygen at 35k to support life 2) the temp would be around -40 to -60* (guessing based on previous flights).

My last flight to PI I remember seeing the temp at -91*F when we were at 35k ft - but we were over Siberia at the time....not sure if global position matters that much when at that altitude, but it was at night.

My guess - if the plane breaks apart at those altitudes - the people would immediately freeze and suffocate in about the same amount of time. They would only see a very brief moment of the disaster before they blacked out and death occurs

[onedef92]

Originally Posted by Dixievet

Temperatures at that height would be pretty cold - not likely that they would live since 1) there is not enough oxygen at 35k to support life 2) the temp would be around -30*F (guessing based on previous flights).

My last flight to PI I remember seeing the temp at -91*F when we were at 35k ft - but we were over Siberia at the time....not sure if global position matters that much when at that altitude, but it was at night.

My guess - if the plane breaks apart at those altitudes - the people would immediately freeze and suffocate in about the same amount of time. They would only see a very brief moment of the disaster before they blacked out and death occurs

On top of that, your lungs are gonna' burst immediately and your eyes will reflexively snap shut due to the wind velocity. I doubt anyone would suffer long.

[island14]

Originally Posted by MrPeabody

It could be that claiming responsibility would endanger their future plans.

Whats the point of being a terrorist if they cant take the claim for it?


I'm guessing the motive is to gain recognition to their cause?

[Rob]

Originally Posted by onedef92

On top of that, your lungs are gonna' burst immediately and your eyes will reflexively snap shut due to the wind velocity. I doubt anyone would suffer long.

True - and maybe some other effects because you "were" pressurized and sudden depressurization would cause some serious narcosis (similar to scuba diving)?

[Mike Mercury]

interesting:

When Air France Flight 447, flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in 2009, went down in the Atlantic with 228 people on board, the Airbus 330 fell into especially deep water. It took five days to locate the first [/b]substancial [/b]wreckage , but it took nearly two years to recover the main wreckage and the black boxes from a depth of around 13,000 feet.

edited:

small piecies of wreckage was spoted 30 hours later, though not officially deemed part of that flight until days later:

On 2 June at 15:20 (UTC), a Brazilian Air Force Embraer R-99A spotted wreckage and signs of oil, possibly jet fuel, strewn along a 5 km (3 mi) band 650 km (400 mi) north-east of Fernando de Noronha Island, near the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago. The sighted wreckage included an aircraft seat, an orange buoy, a barrel, and "white pieces and electrical conductors". Later that day, after meeting with relatives of the Brazilians on the aircraft, Brazilian Defence Minister Nelson Jobim announced that the Air Force believed the wreckage was from Flight 447

[island14]

Originally Posted by onedef92

There is only one worse fate that I can think of than dying.....

Lets hear it...

Going to Hell?

[onedef92]

Originally Posted by Dixievet

True - and maybe some other effects because you "were" pressurized and sudden depressurization would cause some serious narcosis (similar to scuba diving)?

I would think the immediate trauma to the lungs/heart would make narcosis irrelevant. You'll be biologically dead long before the critical depletion of vital blood gasses.

[ApexOversteer]

Originally Posted by Mike Mercury

interesting:

Now that was a brutal end.

The plane stalled at 30k+ feet and likely spun down to the water, still intact and pressurized, taking several terrifying minutes to descend.