The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Maybe some areas are different.. Around here, just read the fine print in their ads.. Advertised price assumes $2000 discount for trade in and $1000 discount for financing with them.. Obviously, they'll give you crap for your trade in order for you to get the $2000 off. So, you lose $2000 either way. If they offer a discount for financing with them, their rate is usually not good. If you don't read all the fine print, you'll get royally screwed. I'm so sick of Stealerships.
Now, they all play "nice" because demand, especially for higher priced vehicles sucks. 2 years ago, they'd screw their customers with huge mark ups unless you were willing to wait.. Those who waited would take delivery right now, when no more shortage exists and people are getting cars well below MSRP because otherwise they can't sell them.. Stealerships won't give up a cent unless they really have to. They will word their ads in a way to mislead customers.. I have seen it over and over again.. Then, here in Central Florida, the STEALERSHIP fee is now over $1k at most dealers. When I bought my Kona Electric in Maryland, they charged me $299.
Screw the Stealerships. I had it with them.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Have you ever read the misleading dealer ads? You open up Autotrader and pull up a car and you like the price. You go to the dealership and find out that the price in the ad is not the price you pay.. It may be ok in your book but it's not ok.

You must suck at negotiating. Right now the buyer has an advantage and dealers are willing to negotiate, but you have to be smart enough to know that and use it to your advantage. We just did it successfully a few weeks ago.

And if you get hung up on the price of the new car, or what they’ll give you for yours in trade, you deserve the screwing you get.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Have you ever read the misleading dealer ads? You open up Autotrader and pull up a car and you like the price. You go to the dealership and find out that the price in the ad is not the price you pay.. It may be ok in your book but it's not ok.

Where in the shit are you trying to buy cars? Autotrader? Ads?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by LATB

What is the $3,600 cost over 5 years?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Maybe some areas are different.. Around here, just read the fine print in their ads.. Advertised price assumes $2000 discount for trade in and $1000 discount for financing with them.. Obviously, they'll give you crap for your trade in order for you to get the $2000 off. So, you lose $2000 either way. If they offer a discount for financing with them, their rate is usually not good. If you don't read all the fine print, you'll get royally screwed. I'm so sick of Stealerships.
Now, they all play "nice" because demand, especially for higher priced vehicles sucks. 2 years ago, they'd screw their customers with huge mark ups unless you were willing to wait.. Those who waited would take delivery right now, when no more shortage exists and people are getting cars well below MSRP because otherwise they can't sell them.. Stealerships won't give up a cent unless they really have to. They will word their ads in a way to mislead customers.. I have seen it over and over again.. Then, here in Central Florida, the STEALERSHIP fee is now over $1k at most dealers. When I bought my Kona Electric in Maryland, they charged me $299.
Screw the Stealerships. I had it with them.

I guess you missed this part...

Originally Posted by LATB

It’s all negotiable.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

You must suck at negotiating. Right now the buyer has an advantage and dealers are willing to negotiate, but you have to be smart enough to know that and use it to your advantage. We just did it successfully a few weeks ago.

And if you get hung up on the price of the new car, or what they’ll give you for yours in trade, you deserve the screwing you get.

I haven't visited a regular dealer since late 2021 when I tried to buy an Ioniq 5 for the wife and I was lied to left and right. I was told on the phone that they would sell the car at MSRP, drove 80 miles to the dealership and when I got there, they marked up the car by like $13k.
I understand that right now, dealers have to drop their pants because of high interest rates and resulting lack of demand. They have to play nice, not because they want to but because they have to. My experience shopping for my wife's car was enough for me to never want to visit stealerships again.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I haven't visited a regular dealer since late 2021 when I tried to buy an Ioniq 5 for the wife and I was lied to left and right. I was told on the phone that they would sell the car at MSRP, drove 80 miles to the dealership and when I got there, they marked up the car by like $13k.
I understand that right now, dealers have to drop their pants because of high interest rates and resulting lack of demand. They have to play nice, not because they want to but because they have to. My experience shopping for my wife's car was enough for me to never want to visit stealerships again.

I recommend not buying a car over the phone. And if you do get a quote over the phone, I sure as heck would request a written quote before I drove 80 miles to finalize the deal.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I haven't visited a regular dealer since late 2021 when I tried to buy an Ioniq 5 for the wife and I was lied to left and right. I was told on the phone that they would sell the car at MSRP, drove 80 miles to the dealership and when I got there, they marked up the car by like $13k.
I understand that right now, dealers have to drop their pants because of high interest rates and resulting lack of demand. They have to play nice, not because they want to but because they have to. My experience shopping for my wife's car was enough for me to never want to visit stealerships again.

That sounds like bullshit. They "marked up the car by like $13k"?

What, exactly did they "mark up"? Did they add $13,000 to the base price? Did they add an expensive warranty? Where was this $13k delta? What did they lie about? Please be specific. What lies, exactly, were told?

Please tell me you aren't 1 of the idiots that doesn't understand sales tax...

[RedLS1GTO]

While I do still have some affiliation, I sold my dealership not all that long ago. The main reason for that was that I was smart enough to see ahead of time that the motorcycle market was going to take a downturn, and it has, a BIG one.

But. There was another reason. Idiots. The percentage of people that walk through the door that are absolute f**king idiots is astounding. The number of people that think they know what they are talking about but have no clue is ridiculous. The number of people that don't understand basic concepts like sales tax, title fees (hint, the dealer doesn't pocket those), etc is more than you could ever imagine. The people that walk through the door and offer something ridiculous. The people that try to use whatever stupid tactic that they saw in a youtube video to "outsmart" the dealer. Another hint... if I sell you a vehicle, it's because you paid the price I wanted you to pay. You didn't somehow get it for less. You didn't outsmart me. If I act upset at the deal, it's because you are an easy to read asshat that needs to feel like he won something and brag about how good the deal was.

Dealing with that number of absolute f**king idiots, idiots that inevitably think that they are smarter than they are, is exhausting. It was usually easy to see who it was going to be, the customers that get a quick paper rock scissors battle to decide who has to go deal with the bullshit that is inevitably about to happen. Somehow, the comments in this thread remind me of that.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by LATB

I recommend not buying a car over the phone. And if you do get a quote over the phone, I sure as heck would request a written quote before I drove 80 miles to finalize the deal.

That’s common sense. At least for most people.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

That sounds like bullshit. They "marked up the car by like $13k"?

What, exactly did they "mark up"? Did they add $13,000 to the base price? Did they add an expensive warranty? Where was this $13k delta? What did they lie about? Please be specific. What lies, exactly, were told?

Please tell me you aren't 1 of the idiots that doesn't understand sales tax...

Market adjustment. Low supply and high demand. Virtually all F150 Lightning were offered for at least $20k market adjustment when supply was low and demand was high. Same applied for most IONIQ5 or KIA EV6 at that time.
During the supply chain crisis, dealers were ripping off customers left and right.

On the IONIQ 5, MSRP was $48k, Market adjustment $13k and sales tax like $4k.. $66k for a $48k car..

[Mick]

Originally Posted by LATB

I recommend not buying a car over the phone. And if you do get a quote over the phone, I sure as heck would request a written quote before I drove 80 miles to finalize the deal.

Originally Posted by Steve_R

That’s common sense. At least for most people.

Doing it in person is no guarantee either. When I bought my present truck, I negotiated a deal with the dealer, and even had a piece of paper with the math of how we got to the out-the-door price that included some dealer add-ons, most notably the rails for the roof rack, signed by me and the sales manager.

I left for them to do the add-ons, and came back the next day with my check and my piece of paper ready to pay and leave, and they said the price was $300 higher because of the rails. I showed them our agreement, that clearly included $150 for the rails, and the sales manager said "that means nothing". I walked out and bought the same truck from another dealer for a lower price.

Apparently they are like the old pits on the floor of the stock exchange: The rule was "the price I am offering is only good for as long as it takes to come out of my mouth".

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Market adjustment. Low supply and high demand. Virtually all F150 Lightning were offered for at least $20k market adjustment when supply was low and demand was high. Same applied for most IONIQ5 or KIA EV6 at that time.
During the supply chain crisis, dealers were ripping off customers left and right.

On the IONIQ 5, MSRP was $48k, Market adjustment $13k and sales tax like $4k.. $66k for a $48k car..

Dealers were not ripping customers off. No one had a gun to their head to sign a car deal.

Key word = NEGOTIATION

MSuggestedRP

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

I recommend not buying a car over the phone. And if you do get a quote over the phone, I sure as heck would request a written quote before I drove 80 miles to finalize the deal.

When I bought my Kona Electric in 2019, I had my last pleasant experience with a dealership and it was not in Florida. I never had a positive experience at any Florida dealer. Bought most of my new cars out of state for that reason.

Went as far as Massachusetts to buy a new car (my 2005 C6 Vert).
Also bought a Jeep Patriot for my wife at a dealership in Georgia etc.

I e-mailed with the Hyundai Dealership about the Kona Electric and I asked them to give me a final price after all fees and all applicable rebates.
The price they quoted me was the price I paid. Flew up to Hagerstown/MD, signed the paperwork and drove the car home. NEVER had such a pleasant experience anywhere in Florida. Overpriced vehicles, dealer games and fake advertised prices. Maybe it's just my area but my experience with dealers was horrible.. Before I bought my F150 Supercrew, I went to a local Chevy dealer to look at Silverados. I saw a Extended Cab Silverado 1500 for a really good price and I went to look at it.. Turns out that the advertised price "assumed" $2000 down and $2000 trade in.. They advertise fake prices and only add those things in the fine print.. Why can't they just advertise the REAL price??

[LATB]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

While I do still have some affiliation, I sold my dealership not all that long ago. The main reason for that was that I was smart enough to see ahead of time that the motorcycle market was going to take a downturn, and it has, a BIG one.

But. There was another reason. Idiots. The percentage of people that walk through the door that are absolute f**king idiots is astounding. The number of people that think they know what they are talking about but have no clue is ridiculous. The number of people that don't understand basic concepts like sales tax, title fees (hint, the dealer doesn't pocket those), etc is more than you could ever imagine. The people that walk through the door and offer something ridiculous. The people that try to use whatever stupid tactic that they saw in a youtube video to "outsmart" the dealer. Another hint... if I sell you a vehicle, it's because you paid the price I wanted you to pay. You didn't somehow get it for less. You didn't outsmart me. If I act upset at the deal, it's because you are an easy to read asshat that needs to feel like he won something and brag about how good the deal was.

Dealing with that number of absolute f**king idiots, idiots that inevitably think that they are smarter than they are, is exhausting. It was usually easy to see who it was going to be, the customers that get a quick paper rock scissors battle to decide who has to go deal with the bullshit that is inevitably about to happen. Somehow, the comments in this thread remind me of that.

Indeed.
Most idiot buyers are buying a monthly payment and probably couldn’t tell you what they actually paid for the vehicle.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Dealers were not ripping customers off. No one had a gun to their head to sign a car deal.

Key word = NEGOTIATION

MSuggestedRP

So, it's not a rip off if on the phone, they tell me that they are selling at MSRP and when I get there after spending 1.5 hours to get there, I find out that I was lied to? If not a rip off, this is BAIT AND SWITCH!!

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Market adjustment. Low supply and high demand. Virtually all F150 Lightning were offered for at least $20k market adjustment when supply was low and demand was high. Same applied for most IONIQ5 or KIA EV6 at that time.

I find it very hard to believe that this chain of events happened as you claim. Why, would any dealer, ever, do that? It is a waste of THEIR time as much as yours. Not even the shadiest of dealers is going to bring someone in and say GOTCHA!!! and add $13k out of the blue. It makes no sense. Something does not add up. My bet is that if this was a discussion on the phone with absolutely nothing written, even unofficially, somebody (you) misunderstood what was being said.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

During the supply chain crisis, dealers were ripping off customers left and right.

And by "ripping off" you mean following the very basic concepts of supply and demand. If demand is low, do you pay MSRP anyway? Of course you don't. You pay less.

How do you determine what your current car is worth if you were to trade it in? Do you follow a standard depreciation curve... or do you adjust based on current demand? If a dealer offers you more than market value, which happens quite often, do you tell them no... because you don't want to rip them off? I was selling some bikes at almost 200% of market value at the height of Covid when there was no supply. People knew the price, they were willing to pay it, and they did. This may come as a shock, but in those times of high demand, the dealers are paying more as well. My BUY prices were above my normal SELL prices. They had to be just to keep some hint of inventory in stock. Even auction prices were above NEW MSRP. You really think that dealers should eat losses because the market fluctuates?

Read this carefully. The market determines price, not MSRP. Selling to the market is not "ripping people off". Not getting the deal you wanted doesn't mean you got ripped off. A dealer selling at above MSRP because the market demands it is not "ripping customers off" any more than going the other way with customers trying to get prices below MSRP when dealers have huge inventories.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

When I bought my Kona Electric in 2019, I had my last pleasant experience with a dealership and it was not in Florida. I never had a positive experience at any Florida dealer. Bought most of my new cars out of state for that reason.

Went as far as Massachusetts to buy a new car (my 2005 C6 Vert).
Also bought a Jeep Patriot for my wife at a dealership in Georgia etc.

I e-mailed with the Hyundai Dealership about the Kona Electric and I asked them to give me a final price after all fees and all applicable rebates.
The price they quoted me was the price I paid. Flew up to Hagerstown/MD, signed the paperwork and drove the car home. NEVER had such a pleasant experience anywhere in Florida. Overpriced vehicles, dealer games and fake advertised prices. Maybe it's just my area but my experience with dealers was horrible.. Before I bought my F150 Supercrew, I went to a local Chevy dealer to look at Silverados. I saw a Extended Cab Silverado 1500 for a really good price and I went to look at it.. Turns out that the advertised price "assumed" $2000 down and $2000 trade in.. They advertise fake prices and only add those things in the fine print.. Why can't they just advertise the REAL price??

Many online prices have rebates and incentives and even an assumed trade equity baked in. Anyone with a brain can decipher the facts. Including incentives like military discount…you are not military you don’t get that 500 bucks, whatever.

I have been buying new trucks/cars/boats/motorcycles/and a tractor in Florida for 35 years. Mostly I’ve done ok with the negotiations.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, it's not a rip off if on the phone, they tell me that they are selling at MSRP and when I get there after spending 1.5 hours to get there, I find out that I was lied to? If not a rip off, this is BAIT AND SWITCH!!

Did you have a written quote?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, it's not a rip off if on the phone, they tell me that they are selling at MSRP and when I get there after spending 1.5 hours to get there, I find out that I was lied to? If not a rip off, this is BAIT AND SWITCH!!

A.) That's not bait and switch. Bait and switch would be selling you something different, not marking up the price.

B.) It makes absolutely no sense for a dealer to do that. Trying to sneak in fees, warranties, etc. Yea, that's some shady shit that some do. Simply tacking $13k onto the price? Nah, that doesn't add up. I'm still sticking with the bet that there was a communication problem in there somewhere.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

A.) That's not bait and switch. Bait and switch would be selling you something different, not marking up the price.

B.) It makes absolutely no sense for a dealer to do that. Trying to sneak in fees, warranties, etc. Yea, that's some shady shit that some do. Simply tacking $13k onto the price? Nah, that doesn't add up. I'm still sticking with the bet that there was a communication problem in there somewhere.

There was no communication problem. It was LIES. I walked out when they came back with the paperwork showing the mark up.
Also, some dealers advertise cars that sold long ago to bring people into the door and then try to sell them a more expensive car that was in stock.
During the supply chain crisis, most in demand cars were market up. Mark ups on the new IONIQ5 were common and between $5k and $15k. I did find one dealer later that would not mark them up but had none in stock at the time.
Lies and misleading all over the place. Again, might be a Central Florida thing..