The Obama Tax Compromise

[leec4ce]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

No one has ever paid nine billion in taxes. The vast majority of income from the nations highest earners comes from capital gains. They have successfully paid off law makers to tax this income at no more than 15%. This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country. Capital gains is income, it must be taxed as such.

Wrong:

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.


In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.

Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.
Treasury Department analysts credit President Bush's tax cuts with shifting a larger share of the individual income taxes paid to higher income taxpayers. In 2005, says the Treasury, when most of the tax cut provisions are fully in effect (e.g., lower tax rates, the $1,000 child credit, marriage penalty relief), the projected tax share for lower-income taxpayers will fall, while the tax share for higher-income taxpayers will rise.


The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers will fall from 4.1 percent to 3.6 percent.

The share of taxes paid by the top 1 percent of taxpayers will rise from 32.3 percent to 33.7 percent.

The average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers falls by 27 percent as compared to a 13 percent decline for taxpayers in the top 1 percent.
The White House has announced it will lobby Congress to pass legislation making most of President Bush's tax cutting measures permanent.

Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis

[Z06PDQ]

so we are quoting government stats when it works for us & then calling them liars on things like unemployment rates?

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

Wrong:

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.


In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.

Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.
Treasury Department analysts credit President Bush's tax cuts with shifting a larger share of the individual income taxes paid to higher income taxpayers. In 2005, says the Treasury, when most of the tax cut provisions are fully in effect (e.g., lower tax rates, the $1,000 child credit, marriage penalty relief), the projected tax share for lower-income taxpayers will fall, while the tax share for higher-income taxpayers will rise.


The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers will fall from 4.1 percent to 3.6 percent.

The share of taxes paid by the top 1 percent of taxpayers will rise from 32.3 percent to 33.7 percent.

The average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers falls by 27 percent as compared to a 13 percent decline for taxpayers in the top 1 percent.
The White House has announced it will lobby Congress to pass legislation making most of President Bush's tax cutting measures permanent.

Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis

Here yea go ...

[DropTheTop]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

This argument holds no water. Welfare checks are sent by the state, not the federal government.

I'm not talking about welfare, I'm talking about people that are taking advantage of the extended unemployment benefits, and not even bothering to look or accept work. These people do exist, and they need to be forced back on their feet. Survival mode will snap back in when the free ride ends. Then we save money in payouts and gain more tax revenue. Don't punish the rich further, is all I'm saying.

I'm not suggesting that the taxes be increased on the wealthy to pay unemployment benefits. I'm saying they need to be raised because we are 13 trillion dollars in debt and that is going to crush the economy.

Government needs to cut spending, not eliminate the desire to succeed and chase the rich out of our country.

No one has ever paid nine billion in taxes. The vast majority of income from the nations highest earners comes from capital gains. They have successfully paid off law makers to tax this income at no more than 15%. This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country. Capital gains is income, it must be taxed as such.

You are forgetting to mention that short term gains are taxed at the regular rate, and only long term gains are taxed at 15%. Those people are taking a risk with their investments, and thank goodness! Would you prefer they all pull out and move their money elsewhere?

Well that logic has already been shot to hell. Bush's tax cuts have been in place for the better part of a decade. Supposedly this is resulting in jobs being generated by the wealthy. Where are the jobs? Voodoo economics has not nor has it ever worked as advertised. Its just bull**** the wealthy use as an excuse to the peons to justify raping the system.

If I were rich, I'd have had a hard time risking investments with this past decade's political climate, multiple wars, housing fall, bailouts, enabled unemployment, etc... If we bring assurance back to the people, and take some fear of risks away, we'll see a turnaround. But only when people are motivated to succeed and find it worthwhile.

I can't believe how many people want to ride off the success (and death) of certain individuals, rather than work for their own slice of the pie.

[Exotix]

Originally Posted by DropTheTop

I can't believe how many people want to ride off the success (and death) of certain individuals, rather than work for their own slice of the pie.

You must've missed *born with a silver spoon up his azz and admits it* Businessman John Raese running in W.Va. this last time around ...


Raese's riches in West Virginia, Florida - Maggie Haberman - POLITICO.com


Businessman John Raese, the GOP nominee in the race for Byrd's seat, has run twice before, and was once the the West Virginia GOP chairman, making his back story as a businessman somewhat different from others entering politics from the corporate world this cycle who are claiming political purity.

Some are taking a fresh look at the Greer Industries heir who, as labor officials noted with glee today in a clip they sent around, has often joked about earning his money through inheritance, including in a radio interview yesterday.

Raese leads a lavish lifestyle that's included over 15 cars, boats and motorcycles, a home in Florida where his family lives full-time and where, records show, he paved the driveway with marble in 2008 as the economy was nosediving.

The fact of Raese's family living in another state fulltime almost certain to come up on the campaign trail.



Elizabeth and John Raese have a nearly 7,000-square-foot home, one where in 2008 — shortly after the first of the TARP package was being allocated — the Raeses put in permits to repave their marble driveway with fresh pink stone.

They've also claimed homeowners' exemptions, which are available only to Florida state residents, including a $25,000 one this year, according to Palm Beach County property records, because of his wife's residence.



*My thanks to all of you who are taxed enough already for all my stuff .. *

Here come the girls: Sarah Palin lines up with Republican candidate for Senate John Raese (left) and performer Ted Nugent in Charleston, West Virginia.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

Wrong:

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.


In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.

Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.
Treasury Department analysts credit President Bush's tax cuts with shifting a larger share of the individual income taxes paid to higher income taxpayers. In 2005, says the Treasury, when most of the tax cut provisions are fully in effect (e.g., lower tax rates, the $1,000 child credit, marriage penalty relief), the projected tax share for lower-income taxpayers will fall, while the tax share for higher-income taxpayers will rise.


The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers will fall from 4.1 percent to 3.6 percent.

The share of taxes paid by the top 1 percent of taxpayers will rise from 32.3 percent to 33.7 percent.

The average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers falls by 27 percent as compared to a 13 percent decline for taxpayers in the top 1 percent.
The White House has announced it will lobby Congress to pass legislation making most of President Bush's tax cutting measures permanent.

Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis

You say I'm wrong then post irrelevent information.

Here, I'll let you take another stab at it -

"No one has ever paid nine billion in taxes. The vast majority of income from the nations highest earners comes from capital gains. They have successfully paid off law makers to tax this income at no more than 15%. This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country. Capital gains is income, it must be taxed as such."

[DropTheTop]

You just keep on hating. Perhaps some day you'll get your wish of standing in a bread line because you, and everyone else, gave up the will to live and flourish to the hands of communism.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by DropTheTop

Originally Posted by Joecooool
This argument holds no water. Welfare checks are sent by the state, not the federal government.

I'm not talking about welfare, I'm talking about people that are taking advantage of the extended unemployment benefits, and not even bothering to look or accept work. These people do exist, and they need to be forced back on their feet. Survival mode will snap back in when the free ride ends. Then we save money in payouts and gain more tax revenue. Don't punish the rich further, is all I'm saying.

I have said repeatedly that I do not support extensions of benefits for those out of work. That point is irrelevant to this discussion.

I'm not suggesting that the taxes be increased on the wealthy to pay unemployment benefits. I'm saying they need to be raised because we are 13 trillion dollars in debt and that is going to crush the economy.

Government needs to cut spending, not eliminate the desire to succeed and chase the rich out of our country.

Your solution is simply absurd. We are 13 trillion in debt. Our federal budget is 3.5 trillion and our intake in all taxes is only 2.3 trillion. We would have to cut about a third of everything just to stay at the current debt level. I'm a supporter of cutting many programs but the reality is even if we cut ten percent across the board, we still need to generate about an extra billion in revenue. Failure to raise taxes is going to destroy this nation for generations.

No one has ever paid nine billion in taxes. The vast majority of income from the nations highest earners comes from capital gains. They have successfully paid off law makers to tax this income at no more than 15%. This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country. Capital gains is income, it must be taxed as such.

You are forgetting to mention that short term gains are taxed at the regular rate, and only long term gains are taxed at 15%. Those people are taking a risk with their investments, and thank goodness! Would you prefer they all pull out and move their money elsewhere?

I'm not forgetting anything. The VAST MAJORITY of money the wealthiest Americans make every year comes from long term capital gains. It needs to be counted as income and taxed accordingly.

Well that logic has already been shot to hell. Bush's tax cuts have been in place for the better part of a decade. Supposedly this is resulting in jobs being generated by the wealthy. Where are the jobs? Voodoo economics has not nor has it ever worked as advertised. Its just bull**** the wealthy use as an excuse to the peons to justify raping the system.

If I were rich, I'd have had a hard time risking investments with this past decade's political climate, multiple wars, housing fall, bailouts, enabled unemployment, etc... If we bring assurance back to the people, and take some fear of risks away, we'll see a turnaround. But only when people are motivated to succeed and find it worthwhile.

Again an argument that holds no water. If you are wealthy you HAVE to invest in something. You can't just sell all your assets in put the money in the bank. First its only insured to 100,000 dollars, second, you lose your ass even with slight inflation. The wealthy are forced to invest.

I can't believe how many people want to ride off the success (and death) of certain individuals, rather than work for their own slice of the pie.

I disagree that there are many people that want to do this. I'm shocked that you can understand and accept that every single person on the Forbes 400 richest Americans list pays less - as a percentage of total income - in taxes, than their secretaries. Truly, this is a shame.

[DropTheTop]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I have said repeatedly that I do not support extensions of benefits for those out of work. That point is irrelevant to this discussion.

Tens of millions of people not working for two years and adding their proper due to the tax system is irrelevant, so punish the rich. Check.

Your solution is simply absurd. We are 13 trillion in debt. Our federal budget is 3.5 trillion and our intake in all taxes is only 2.3 trillion. We would have to cut about a third of everything just to stay at the current debt level. I'm a supporter of cutting many programs but the reality is even if we cut ten percent across the board, we still need to generate about an extra billion in revenue. Failure to raise taxes is going to destroy this nation for generations.

Government should not cut spending. The rich should cough up more of their money while the rest of the people give up the pursuit of life and dreams to get paid by their communist government. Check.

I'm not forgetting anything. The VAST MAJORITY of money the wealthiest Americans make every year comes from long term capital gains. It needs to be counted as income and taxed accordingly.

Again an argument that holds no water. If you are wealthy you HAVE to invest in something. You can't just sell all your assets in put the money in the bank. First its only insured to 100,000 dollars, second, you lose your ass even with slight inflation. The wealthy are forced to invest.

Raise capital gains tax for the rich, to a level that allows the government to continue paying out to everyone else, without affecting it's already bloated budget. Check.

I disagree that there are many people that want to do this. I'm shocked that you can understand and accept that every single person on the Forbes 400 richest Americans list pays less - as a percentage of total income - in taxes, than their secretaries. Truly, this is a shame.

I fully understand the whole percentage of total income equation. What I can't believe is that some people wish to place everyone on the same level, thereby eliminating the motivation to succeed and take risks.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that a secretary probably isn't investing the same amount of money as the CEO of the company she works for. But somehow it's the CEO's fault that she made all the choices in life that lead up to her accepting the position of secretary, and accepting the wages offered. Sure, go ahead and tax him more in a recession. That will teach him for being successful. And I'm sure she'll really appreciate it when he says FU and sells the company or liquidates it leaving her home to collect for two years. Obama will pay her mortgage.

Hey, maybe we could add an even higher tax bracket for those with natural talent. You know, "entertainers". I mean, it's so unfair that everyone's genetic code isn't the same. They should be punished too.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by DropTheTop

You just keep on hating. Perhaps some day you'll get your wish of standing in a bread line because you, and everyone else, gave up the will to live and flourish to the hands of communism.

your precious capitalism has failed miserably & it's failed world wide. will the capitalists give us commies free bread?

[leec4ce]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

You say I'm wrong then post irrelevent information.

Here, I'll let you take another stab at it -

"No one has ever paid nine billion in taxes. The vast majority of income from the nations highest earners comes from capital gains. They have successfully paid off law makers to tax this income at no more than 15%. This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country. Capital gains is income, it must be taxed as such."

First sentence:

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.

The relative information is the progressive tax code. It’s all about taxable income not just income tax and capital gains. As Chase likes to say “If your taxed enough already you need to a tax accountant”.

You care to compute a $100,000 taxable income single person at 21.71% and compare it to 1 Million in capital gains at 15% and see who pays more.

As for “This is unfair and unheard of in any other first world country”:

An International Comparison of Capital Gains Tax Rates

Most industrial and developing countries tax individual and corporate capital gains more lightly than does the United States, according to a survey of twenty-four industrialized and developing countries that the ACCF Center for Policy Research commissioned from Arthur Andersen LLP. The Center's analysis shows that the United States taxes both short- and long-term capital gains more harshly than most other countries. High capital gains tax rates increase the bias against saving and investment, raise the cost of capital for new investment, and slow U.S. economic growth.

You are absolutely right the progressive tax code is unfair and needs some kind of overhaul maybe a Flat Tax or National Sales Tax.

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

You are absolutely right the progressive tax code is unfair and needs some kind of overhaul maybe a Flat Tax or National Sales Tax.

This was a problem 10 years ago and 20 years ago; not just 20 Months ago.

[leec4ce]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

so we are quoting government stats when it works for us & then calling them liars on things like unemployment rates?

Government State are Goverment States:


The U.S. Department of Labor

From Apr 2008 low of 4.8 unemployment to a high of 10.6 Jan 2010.
2009 is showing the largest increases from 8.5 to the high of 10.6 in Jan 2010. 2010 is showing downward trend through the month of month of Oct at 9.0. Hopefully the trend will continue down. Until the 8% as government said would never go over just can’t say catastrophe avoided. The catastrophe has already happen.

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

Government State are Goverment States:


The U.S. Department of Labor

From Apr 2008 low of 4.8 unemployment to a high of 10.6 Jan 2010.
2009 is showing the largest increases from 8.5 to the high of 10.6 in Jan 2010. 2010 is showing downward trend through the month of month of Oct at 9.0. Hopefully the trend will continue down. Until the 8% as government said would never go over just can’t say catastrophe avoided. The catastrophe has already happen.

Do you have any idea what led to what happened in 2009 and 2010?

Or is it a freak of nature ...

Maybe we just woke up on January 1st 2009 and everything went to hell.

[leec4ce]

Originally Posted by ChasC5

Do you have any idea what led to what happened in 2009 and 2010?

Or is it a freak of nature ...

Maybe we just woke up on January 1st 2009 and everything went to hell.

No freak of nature

Maybe we fell asleep in in 2000 woke up in January 2009 sing "He did it He did it So we can do it too

[ChasC5]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

No freak of nature

Maybe we fell asleep in in 2000 woke up in January 2009 sing "He did it He did it So we can do it too

Anyone who knows how to analyze problems, first analyzes the root causes.

The United States of America choose to take-in less Tax revenue in both 2001 and 2003.

Fact; Treasury Revenues consistently decreased over the last decade.

Then came the Economic a collapse in 2008

Cause = Effect

Or

Deny = Deny

Your Choice

[Exotix]

Originally Posted by ChasC5

Anyone who knows how to analyze problems, first analyzes the root causes.

The United States of America choose to take-in less Tax revenue in both 2001 and 2003.

Fact; Treasury Revenues consistently decreased over the last decade.

Then came the Economic a collapse in 2008

Cause = Effect

Or

Deny = Deny

Your Choice

There's only one reason that the (R)'s are compelled to destroy America ... so they can privatize it ... this has been a criminal conspiracy based on a slow burn of subversion of the Founding Fathers / U.S. Constitution since the advent of William McKinley known as the one true Godfather of neo-conservatism (though this demogogy of neo-conservatism didn't come to fruition until Reagan) ...

As the Tea Party fizzles out in terms of *re-inventing / re-interpreting* what the Founding Fathers *really meant* (actually believing that the Founding Fathers puposely meant for silences in the constitution so that somebody would come along to abolish it) ..
... the (R)'s simply waited for Tea Party fanaticism to die down so to get on with their Bush Tax Cut *revisionism* that will take America over the cliff ...

Although taking Obama down is merely incidental as the *Party of No* at a time America is in critical condition ... this is in fact the only way they can do it ... and do it now ...

From Trade Policies to entitlements ... this is the real discussion (I-Vermont) Bernie Sanders has been leading since 7 a.m this morning ...

... nobody should miss this discussion with regards to this (D) Bush Tax Cut extension Filibuster ...

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by leec4ce

Most industrial and developing countries tax individual and corporate capital gains more lightly than does the United States, according to a survey of twenty-four industrialized and developing countries that the ACCF Center for Policy Research commissioned from Arthur Andersen LLP. The Center's analysis shows that the United States taxes both short- and long-term capital gains more harshly than most other countries. High capital gains tax rates increase the bias against saving and investment, raise the cost of capital for new investment, and slow U.S. economic growth.

So it should be real easy for you to provide examples then.

[Peter Pan]

Originally Posted by ChasC5

Anyone who knows how to analyze problems, first analyzes the root causes.

The United States of America choose to take-in less Tax revenue in both 2001 and 2003.

Fact; Treasury Revenues consistently decreased over the last decade.

Then came the Economic a collapse in 2008

Cause = Effect

Or

Deny = Deny

Your Choice

The real problem is uncontrolled spending, even if the tax code goes back to 2001 levels our country will still have defict spending. We as a nation have to get spending to be less than what our country takes in and pretty soon we are going to run out of tax payers $$.

I am taxed enough already

[Peter Pan]

Originally Posted by TxAg

And that's been coming from both sides, with the Dems leading the way.

You are right here both sides are spending way to much and yes the Dems have uncontrolled spending and even more taxes will not get us out of the current lib spending habits, not that the reps can, time for our Govt to spend less than they tax to get our books in order