The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[Mick]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As I pointed out, if your normal travel style includes food stops on a long trip, your travel time won't be affected much. The only impact would be a lower selection of food joints and I can easily live with that.
We have been travelling from Central FL to McAllen/TX (1350 miles each way) almost every year, some years even 2 to 3 times since 2007 with many different vehicles and every single time, we left early morning and arrived early afternoon next day, staying overnight somewhere south of Houston. We arrived the same time with the Model Y or Model X that we did with gas cars (Grand Caravan, Corvettes, Audi A4, Chevy Metro, Jeep Patriot and others)

You keep posting stuff like this, and it is totally wrong. I just got back on Thursday from a 3100 mile road trip, and at no time was ANY stop more than about 15 minutes. That would include stops where we got the dog out of the car to relieve herself, both my wife and I used the facilities at the place, AND had a good meal at the stop. Good meal meaning NO fast food.

Our last day was a 750 mile run that included 2 gas stops, 2 potty stops, and a lunch stop. Total stop time was under an hour.

I have no interest in hanging around a truck stop for 45 minutes waiting for my car to charge. But if that is what floats your boat, go for it.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by Mick

at no time was ANY stop more than about 15 minutes. That would include stops where we got the dog out of the car to relieve herself, both my wife and I used the facilities at the place, AND had a good meal at the stop. Good meal meaning NO fast food.

I find this extremely difficult to believe. At most non-fast-food restaurants it takes more than 15 minutes just to get your food.

[DDSLT5]

Originally Posted by Mick

You keep posting stuff like this, and it is totally wrong. I just got back on Thursday from a 3100 mile road trip, and at no time was ANY stop more than about 15 minutes. That would include stops where we got the dog out of the car to relieve herself, both my wife and I used the facilities at the place, AND had a good meal at the stop. Good meal meaning NO fast food.

Our last day was a 750 mile run that included 2 gas stops, 2 potty stops, and a lunch stop. Total stop time was under an hour.

I have no interest in hanging around a truck stop for 45 minutes waiting for my car to charge. But if that is what floats your boat, go for it.

On my drive to Florida from Ontario, I drive straight from home to Naples. 22 hours straight. 3 stops to fill the tank, and take a piss. Never more than 10 minutes for each stop. 30 min stopped total, traversing the entire USA north to south. Electric car? UH - **** no - I want to get to my destination.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

I find this extremely difficult to believe. At most non-fast-food restaurants it takes more than 15 minutes just to get your food.

I don't care if you believe it or not. I find it more than difficult to believe that anyone needs 30+ minutes to fill their tank, take a piss, get something to eat, and shove it in their face. I could light my charcoal grill, and cook some steaks in a few more minutes than that.

I'm guessing the real reason that these folks are stopping for a long time is they are paying for blowies in the truck stop men's room.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Mick

You keep posting stuff like this, and it is totally wrong. I just got back on Thursday from a 3100 mile road trip, and at no time was ANY stop more than about 15 minutes. That would include stops where we got the dog out of the car to relieve herself, both my wife and I used the facilities at the place, AND had a good meal at the stop. Good meal meaning NO fast food.

Our last day was a 750 mile run that included 2 gas stops, 2 potty stops, and a lunch stop. Total stop time was under an hour.

I have no interest in hanging around a truck stop for 45 minutes waiting for my car to charge. But if that is what floats your boat, go for it.

Your travel style is not normal. We have done road trips with friends and they want to stop more and longer than we do.
All those Restaurant chains along the highway are doing it wrong and they are always empty during breakfast, lunch and dinner hours because people don't stop for food.

[Tikiman]

That's because they cannot stand another minute inside your electric appliance listening to you go on and on about EVs.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Tikiman

That's because they cannot stand another minute inside your electric appliance listening to you go on and on about EVs.

That statement is as stupid as saying that gas car owners should only be allowed to use gas that they personally drilled for and refined.

[Tikiman]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

That statement is as stupid as saying that gas car owners should only be allowed to use gas that they personally drilled for and refined.

Incorrect. The owners of gasoline powered vehicles are under no illusions that they are saving the environment as they charge their appliances using electricity made from burning coal.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Tikiman

Incorrect. The owners of gasoline powered vehicles are under no illusions that they are saving the environment as they charge their appliances using electricity made from burning coal.

Neither are EV owners except for a few Libs in California. We have many EV owners on here and I never saw anyone make any statement that they bought an EV to save the planet. For me, it's acceleration, no routine maintenance and extremely low operating cost. I don't give a f about how green the car is.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

For me, it's acceleration, no routine maintenance and extremely low operating cost. I don't give a f about how green the car is.

You say that over and over and over, and yet you've admitted there is maintenance. Which is it? Any what about routine maintenance on a gas powered car is so horrible, expensive and time consuming?

[Bill]

EV's are great for not getting stolen, though:

https://www.topspeed.com/electric-ve...heives-report/

Why Car Thieves Aren't Interested In Electric Vehicles
By
William Clavey
Published Feb 20, 2024

Car theft is on the rise in the U.S. and Canada, but the thieves don't seem interested in EVs.


Car theft in the US and Canada hit record numbers in 2023.
New tech like keyless entry is fueling car theft escalation.
Thieves avoid EVs due to their advanced security features and lack of demand.

Car theft in the US and Canada reached record numbers in 2023. A recent report from the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB) indicates that between January and July 2023, more than 80,000 vehicles were reported stolen per month, totaling nearly 500,000 car thefts during the first half of the year. This equates to a 2% increase versus 2022. California was the state where car theft was at its highest, with a total of 99,769 stolen cars in the first half of 2023.

In Canada, auto theft is also a pressing issue. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently summoned a national summit to fight against auto theft, which rose 50% in the province of Quebec, 48.3% in Ontario, 34.5% in Atlantic Canada and 18.35% in Alberta in 2022. This spike was triggered by several different factors. The COVID-19 global pandemic, for starters, which led to serious supply chain issues, created significant discrepancies in supply and demand all over the world. Hot markets to which some of our stolen cars are being shipped - like Dubai - began sourcing cars whichever way they saw fit, increasing demand in the black market.

New technologies, such as keyless entry, give thieves easier methods to steal a car, allowing them to simply copy your key fob's signal. The motivations for stealing cars have also changed. A few decades ago, cars were being stolen so their parts could be sold on the black market. Today, it's so they can be shipped and sold to other markets.

Which cars are thieves interested in? At the top of NICB's list, you'll find GM and Ford full-size trucks, like the F-150 and the Silverado/Sierra. The Honda Civic, the Accord, and the Toyota Camry are all hot items in the US. In Canada, the top spots go to the Honda CR-V and the Toyota RAV4. What's interesting, however, is that car thieves are not targeting electric vehicles (EVs). As a matter of fact, vehicles like the Tesla Model 3 are ranked among the least stolen vehicles in North America. Why is that?
Red 2019 Hyundai Elantra driving
Related
A Software Update And Window Stickers: Hyundai's And Kia's Solution To TikTok Car Theft Trend
A TikTok challenge has made Hyundai the most stolen vehicle in the U.S., but with Kia, the Korean automaker is fighting back.


Yes, it's true that all new cars now come with some form of an app to remotely operate some features, but EVs are considerably more advanced in that respect. Tesla invented the whole concept of being able to control your car remotely using your phone. Thanks to features like Sentry Mode, which relies on a myriad of cameras to monitor your car's surroundings in real-time, the owner instantly gets a notification if someone simply gets close to the car.

All EVs come with important remote features that allow the owner to get the car on or off, lock the doors, sound the alarm system and even track the vehicle in real-time. For a thief, that's a big turn-off.


All EVs are engineered to prevent the car from moving if it senses the charge port is being used. Even if the thief decides to chop the charging cable using an industrial pair of cutters, that won't prevent the car from still detecting a J1772 connector (or NACS if it's a Tesla) plugged into its charging port.

Unless that thief finds a way to hack into the car's mainframe, it'll be impossible to get the car into the D position. And since several EVs lock the charge port when their doors are locked, that thief will need something rather strong to beat that connector out of its locked position. The time and effort involved could quickly discourage a thief.
The Destination Markets Don't Care About EVs
2010 Top Gear's Stig drives the Zenvo ST1 along the Dubai desert for a photo shoot

Some may argue that an EV can be hacked and controlled by a thief anyway. Those people would be absolutely right. However, it seems that thieves are simply not interested in these types of cars for the simple reason that the markets that request them don't really care for them.

Statistics show that the vast majority of cars stolen in the US and Canada end up in other parts of the world, such as Africa or the Middle East. We're talking about countries where EV infrastructure is weak, or downright non-existent. The buyers of these stolen cars, which typically end up listed on social media platforms like TikTok, are not interested in having to charge their car.

Car thieves therefore seek simple and reliable internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, hence why Toyotas, Hondas and American pickup trucks are among the most stolen cars on this continent. They're easy to steal, and just as easy to sell.
Buying An EV Is A Good Way To Mitigate Car Theft
Silver 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5
Hyundai

I was recently contacted by an acquaintance who'd recently gotten her Honda CR-V stolen. She was absolutely enraged by what happened and was seeking advice for a new vehicle that wasn't targeted by thieves. "I don't want to have to go through this again" - she proclaimed in frustration.

To her request, I showed her the data about the least stolen vehicles. Realizing how many EVs were on the list, she placed an order for a brand-new Hyundai IONIQ 5. If you were recently a victim of car theft, then perhaps replacing your ICE with an EV could prevent it from happening again.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

You say that over and over and over, and yet you've admitted there is maintenance. Which is it? Any what about routine maintenance on a gas powered car is so horrible, expensive and time consuming?

A warranty repair is NOT ROUTINE maintenance. There is NO routine maintenance on Teslas. Theoretically, you should change the cabin air filter once a year ($30 for the filter) and "test" the brake fluid. That's it for the life of the car.
I haven't had any warranty repairs for a while and all those were minor issues and didn't cost me a dime. I was able to schedule mobile service at my house on my work from home days, so I had zero impact, zero down time when I needed the car.

[Steve_R]

So there’s only “theoretical” routine maintenance on an EV. Got it.



Care to answer my question, or ignore it as usual?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

A warranty repair is NOT ROUTINE maintenance. There is NO routine maintenance on Teslas. Theoretically, you should change the cabin air filter once a year ($30 for the filter) and "test" the brake fluid. That's it for the life of the car.
I haven't had any warranty repairs for a while and all those were minor issues and didn't cost me a dime. I was able to schedule mobile service at my house on my work from home days, so I had zero impact, zero down time when I needed the car.

Just to add.. as for maintenance, we have driven over 170k EV miles in 5 years so far and total maintenance (other than tires) was under $100.
Tires on my wife's BMW i3 were expensive. We are on the 3rd set of tires already (so, we changed tires twice) which cost us $1100 each time. The treadwear on those tires is like 400 or so, so those tires don't last more than 25k miles. Tires on the Kona Electric were $600 for the set of 4 and only changed tires once in 58k miles.. Changed tires on the Plaid for $900 installed for all 4 (NEXEN Roadian GTX tires instead of the pricey Contis)

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

So there’s only “theoretical” routine maintenance on an EV. Got it.



Care to answer my question, or ignore it as usual?

If you change oil based on your oil life monitor in your car, you have to change every 8k miles or so. That's 2 oil chances per year per vehicle. We have 2 vehicles, so, 4 oil changes in a year. DEPENDING on the car, you may need brake pads frequently. (Our 2008 Grand Caravan needed brake pads every year. Unfortunately, Dodge designed the brakes too small which causes them to wear out quickly). You also need engine air filter replacement, spark plug replacement, transmission fluid replacement etc..

Here is the maintenance schedule on a Dodge Durango, a similar sized SUV with my MX Plaid:

6,000 miles (about six months)
Oil and filter replacement
Tire inspection
12,000 miles (about one year)
Oil change
Brake system inspection
Exhaust system inspection
Tire rotation and inspection
24,000 miles (about two years)
All 12,000-mile interval tasks
Replace spark plugs
Replace engine air filter
Inspect other filters
48,000 miles (about four years)
All 12,000-mile and 24,000-mile tasks
Transmission fluid and filter replacement (if towing often)
Inspect other fluids
Parking brake adjustment

[GrandSportC3]

Warranty is also a major factor. My Model X Plaid has 150k mile powertrain warranty including 3 motors (which include gearbox) and battery which are the most expensive components. Can't get a gas car with 150k mile factory warranty on your powertrain.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Here is the maintenance schedule on a Dodge Durango, a similar sized SUV with my MX Plaid:

6,000 miles (about six months)
Oil and filter replacement
Tire inspection
12,000 miles (about one year)
Oil change
Brake system inspection
Exhaust system inspection
Tire rotation and inspection
24,000 miles (about two years)
Oil and filter replacement
Replace spark plugs - Bullshit
Replace engine air filter
Inspect other filters
48,000 miles (about four years)
Oil change
All 12,000-mile and 24,000-mile tasks
Transmission fluid and filter replacement (if towing often)
Inspect other fluids
Parking brake adjustment

Now let's take out the bullshit filler lines that you left in to make it look longer and look at the actual list.

6,000 miles -
Oil and filter replacement
Tire inspection - your Petunia needs this too

12,000 miles -
Oil change
Brake system inspection - 5 seconds, not maintenance
Exhaust system inspection - 5 seconds, not maintenance
Tire rotation and inspection - your Petunia needs this too

24,000 miles (about two years)
Oil change
Replace spark plugs - Bullshit
Replace engine air filter - 5 minutes
Inspect other filters - not maintenance

48,000 miles (about four years)
Oil change
Transmission fluid and filter replacement (if towing often) - you don't tow so N/A
Inspect other fluids - Not maintanance
Parking brake adjustment - Bullshit.

So just to sum it up. In 4 years... the total maintenance is a few oil changes and a $10 filter. That 4 years of maintenance can be done in less time than it takes you to sit in a McDonald's and wait for yours to charge once.

Keep trying.

[jw38]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Neither are EV owners except for a few Libs in California. We have many EV owners on here and I never saw anyone make any statement that they bought an EV to save the planet. For me, it's acceleration, no routine maintenance and extremely low operating cost. I don't give a f about how green the car is.

In April, I rode in a friend's Model X with him from Los Angeles to San Antonio. Let's start with the good:

1. OK...the acceleration is fun

Now the bad:

1. It's by far the loudest vehicle I've ever ridden in. The road noise is horrible.
2. Virtually every moment of the trip was dictated by where the next charging station was.
3. There was absolutely no consideration for side trips for sightseeing because that would have taken us off the routes for the charging stations.
4. Almost all of the Supercharger charging stations had at least one non-functioning charger. Most had at least 2 that didn't work.
5. I had listen to my friend compain about all of the issues he's had with the vehicle.
a. It had 84k miles on it and he was on his 4th set of tires (he drives like an old lady)
b. It's on it's 4th set of front axle CV joints. The first two were covered under warranty,
but the last two cost him $2500 a whack. Apparently, Tesla knows about the issue,
but they won't do anything for their customers.
c. In order to lessen the issue with the front axle CV joints, once on the highway, he had
raise the suspension to the "middle" position via the center screen because the
suspension automatically defaults to the "low" setting, causing CV joint wear.
d. Tons of electrical "glitches" as he calls them.
6. So much for no routine maintenance.

I could go on, but it would be senseless to do so.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by jw38

I could go on, but it would be senseless to do so.

It really is. I said it in the other thread...

Elon managed to find a way to make his businesses into a religion.

Look at his followers. They are absolute zealots. Look at the way they argue about things. They don't argue about cars... they argue as someone would about their religious beliefs. Facts are irrelevant. Reality is unimportant. If Elon shit in a bag, I'm sure he'd have them lining up to pay "six figures" for it (and then constantly tell us how amazing it was).

Don't believe me? Try to imagine for a minute if GM built the Cyber"truck". If they built 100% the same thing. The same specs, the same reliability issues, the same exact thing... with a GM badge on the front of it. The perfect example is right here with the resident fanboy doing nothing but bash the Hummer EV while defending the useless "truck" to the death. If GM built the cyber"truck" they would get laughed out of business, and rightfully so. As it is, Elon's merry band of zealots slurp it up and ask for more.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

When the "I know a guy" arguments have come up, I have referenced my coworker with a Model S Plaid that I have driven a few times.

This is the same car that has had multiple issues.

Last week another... yes ANOTHER motor failed, the 3rd one overall.

This was in the parking lot today.

I asked him this morning how he liked it compared to the Tesla after a little bit of time in it.

His response was simple.

"It's not even a comparison. It is better in absolutely every way possible"

I still haven't had a chance to drive it, but overall, it ... is a Porsche. Still won't work for me and how I drive, but not a bad car overall from what I have seen so far.