The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Red Baron

What is at the end of "the final stretch", in your opinion? I agree with you, but was curious to hear any ideas or formulations of a final picture. Would it involve an armageddon like sitch, or a decay of moral, social, and mechanical responsibilities to such a degree that we end up wandering around like Australopithecus?

Imagine Cuba, but five thousand times larger.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

They will cheat more.
They will get away with more cheating.
They will have many more new methods of cheating.
They will not lose a close-count in any state.
Cheating will gain them the victory.
rnc, pub pols, pub strategists are all idiots, they know it is coming, yet their response is so very weak.

2020
AZ 10K votes. 11 electoral
GA 11K votes, 16 electoral
NV 32K votes, 6 electoral
PA 80K votes, 20 electoral
WI 20K votes, 10 electoral

TRUMP lost by 74
Above states are 63 votes

IMO, socialists will focus on stealing TX, this is all they will need.

I hope that the difference will be big enough that makes winning by cheating close to impossible as they would have to cheat so much that the chance of getting caught will increase.. I hope that they get caught and fry in jail..

[Aerovette]

Goldilocks election.

Hillary - These votes are too few
Biden - These votes are too many
Biden 2024 - These votes are just right.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

High interest rates especially effect non entry level vehicles. Harder to sell more expensive vehicles. Furthermore, Tesla did have a factory shut down in Q1 for retooling for the refresh Model 3. This affected production. We will see in Q2 if the trend continues or if Tesla will go back selling more. The market right now is very difficult for any cars above entry level. My local Ford dealer has been sitting on 4 heavily discounted F150 Lightning for months now.. 1 year ago, those cars would sell with a $10k mark up and now, they can't sell them with $15k in discounts.. Interest rates affect everyone, not just Tesla.

Discounted F150 lightning… gee… what else do those have in common with Tesla? Oddly enough, they don’t seem to have a problem selling anything else. Ford was up 6.8% overall. I wonder what it could be about the lightning that people don’t seem to like.

The problem isn’t that they are “non-entry-level”. The problem is that nobody wants an electric truck that on its best day can’t do the same things as a decade old beater. You know, the things that actually matter… Things other than accelerating in a straight line.

Your argument of “non-entry level vehicles” needs a little bit of work. The best selling Tesla models are in the $40,000 range. That’s not exactly high-end by today’s standards. The average new car cost in Q1 was $47,000. Those pesky facts standing in the way of the argument.

The entire auto industry increased 5%.
The average cost of the new cars sold increased to over $47,000.
Tesla dropped by 20%.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that the reason is the interest rates.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Discounted F150 lightning… gee… what else do those have in common with Tesla? Oddly enough, they don’t seem to have a problem selling anything else. Ford was up 6.8% overall. I wonder what it could be about the lightning that people don’t seem to like.

The problem isn’t that they are “non-entry-level”. The problem is that nobody wants an electric truck that on its best day can’t do the same things as a decade old beater. You know, the things that actually matter… Things other than accelerating in a straight line.

Your argument of “non-entry level vehicles” needs a little bit of work. The best selling Tesla models are in the $40,000 range. That’s not exactly high-end by today’s standards. The average new car cost in Q1 was $47,000. Those pesky facts standing in the way of the argument.

The entire auto industry increased 5%.
The average cost of the new cars sold increased to over $47,000.
Tesla dropped by 20%.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that the reason is the interest rates.

Ford offered a 3.9% interest rate for Q1 on gas powered F150's and other vehicles which helped move them. I doubt that they would've sold as many had they charged market rate.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Ford offered a 3.9% interest rate for Q1 on gas powered F150's and other vehicles which helped move them. I doubt that they would've sold as many had they charged market rate.

I know the chances of you admitting anything negative about Tesla are exactly 0, but come on man. Prime in Q1 was about 5.8% average. You can’t honestly believe that 2% interest rate was the difference between losing 20%(Tesla) and gaining 6.8% (Ford).

The entire auto industry dealt with the exact same interest rates. BMW, Lexus, Mercedes all gained significantly (your entry level argument is wrong). Toyota gained. Nissan gained. Ford gained. GM was a net 0 overall. Passenger vehicles were up, fleet were down. Their big loser? The Bolt. The only other major loser of Q1 was Audi. Why? Audi was selling their traditional ICE vehicles faster than they were making them but they went full dumbass with electric vehicles and shockingly enough didn’t sell them.

The entire industry dealt with the exact same interest rates. Tesla lost while almost every other gained. Tesla has pulled another $7000 off of the price of vehicles. If not for daddy .gov, they would be losing $6000+ on every sale right now. Pull off your Elon colored glasses for 3 seconds and look at reality.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I know the chances of you admitting anything negative about Tesla are exactly 0, but come on man. Prime in Q1 was about 5.8% average. You can’t honestly believe that 2% interest rate was the difference between losing 20%(Tesla) and gaining 6.8% (Ford).

The entire auto industry dealt with the exact same interest rates. BMW, Lexus, Mercedes all gained significantly (your entry level argument is wrong). Toyota gained. Nissan gained. Ford gained. GM was a net 0 overall. Passenger vehicles were up, fleet were down. Their big loser? The Bolt. The only other major loser of Q1 was Audi. Why? Audi was selling their traditional ICE vehicles faster than they were making them but they went full dumbass with electric vehicles and shockingly enough didn’t sell them.

The entire industry dealt with the exact same interest rates. Tesla lost while almost every other gained. Tesla has pulled another $7000 off of the price of vehicles. If not for daddy .gov, they would be losing $6000+ on every sale right now. Pull off your Elon colored glasses for 3 seconds and look at reality.

The Maverick and other Hybrid vehicles drove up sales. The Maverick starts at $23k MSRP. Not an expensive vehicle.

[RedLS1GTO]

Ok. Let’s take Tesla out of the discussion… because there is ZERO chance that you’re capable of admitting that Tesla may be the problem as opposed to blaming something else.

Audi.

Why has Audi dropped 16% while BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Genesis, etc have all gained over the same period?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Ok. Let’s take Tesla out of the discussion… because there is ZERO chance that you’re capable of admitting that Tesla may be the problem as opposed to blaming something else.

Audi.

Why has Audi dropped 16% while BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Genesis, etc have all gained over the same period?

Most of BMW's gains were due to their ENTRY LEVEL models like the X1 which was up 90% over the same quarter in 2023. Haven't researched the other brands yet but I bet that it will be a similar trend. Higher sales are mostly driven due to their entry level models. While AUDI's EV sales were up significantly, their gas powered, especially higher priced SUV sales dropped a lot..

As you can see in the article, generally SUB COMPACT (cheap) SUV's were the big sellers and higher prices vehicles were the losers.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g6...inners-losers/

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Most of BMW's gains were due to their ENTRY LEVEL models like the X1 which was up 90% over the same quarter in 2023. Haven't researched the other brands yet but I bet that it will be a similar trend. Higher sales are mostly driven due to their entry level models. While AUDI's EV sales were up significantly, their gas powered, especially higher priced SUV sales dropped a lot..

As you can see in the article, generally SUB COMPACT (cheap) SUV's were the big sellers and higher prices vehicles were the losers.

The X1 STARTS at $40k with most common packages being in the $46k range. Your argument before was that the $40k Tesla didn't count as "entry level". Which is it? Is $46k "entry level" or is it not? You can't call it both.

The X1 was "Up 90%"... great. The X1 was up... because it started with a baseline of damn near 0. Q1 sales of the X1 totaled 6012. BMW sold 14,923 X5s. Let that sink in for a minute. They sold more than twice as many X5s as X1s. Come on man. You have to at least use some basic level of critical thinking skills.

Most of BMWs gains? Absolutely FALSE. That's not how math works. The X1 accounted for less than 7% of the TOTAL US sales. It sure as hell didn't single handedly drive the increase of the brand as a whole.

As for Audi, they went full dumbass and turned all of their top SUVs into EVs that didn't sell.

The reason that Audi didn't sell the "normal" models was that they cut production on everything else to build EVs and didn't have them on the lots. It wasn't a function of the higher end vehicles sitting unsold. Q7/Q8 SUVs and A6/A7 sedans were gone within a couple of days of arrival a the dealers.

Interestingly enough, I wrote the above portion before I even looked at the article.

As sales of Audi's electric SUVs continue an upward trajectory, sales of the German automaker's gas-powered SUVs tanked in the first quarter. The Q5 remained Audi's top seller but fell 33 percent to 11,473 units, while the Q7 decreased by 35 percent, and the Q8 was down by 37 percent. The only saving grace was the smallest member of Audi's SUV lineup, as the Q3 saw a whopping 80 percent increase to 6926 units.

Sales didn't tank because they couldn't sell them. They tanked because they didn't even make them (in favor of EVs). Try to understand the WHY instead of only the WHAT. In this case, WHY didn't Audi sell the Q7/Q8? Because they didn't even make them.

They chose poorly.

It is rather amusing that you attribute BMWs gains to putting a vehicle in the $40k-$50k range while simultaneously saying that Tesla's losses were due to consumers not wanting to buy $40k-$50k vehicles.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

The X1 STARTS at $40k with most common packages being in the $46k range. Your argument before was that the $40k Tesla didn't count as "entry level". Which is it? Is $46k "entry level" or is it not? You can't call it both.

The X1 was "Up 90%"... great. The X1 was up... because it started with a baseline of damn near 0. Q1 sales of the X1 totaled 6012. BMW sold 14,923 X5s. Let that sink in for a minute. They sold more than twice as many X5s as X1s. Come on man. You have to at least use some basic level of critical thinking skills.

Most of BMWs gains? Absolutely FALSE. That's not how math works. The X1 accounted for less than 7% of the TOTAL US sales. It sure as hell didn't single handedly drive the increase of the brand as a whole.

As for Audi, they went full dumbass and turned all of their top SUVs into EVs that didn't sell.

The reason that Audi didn't sell the "normal" models was that they cut production on everything else to build EVs and didn't have them on the lots. It wasn't a function of the higher end vehicles sitting unsold. Q7/Q8 SUVs and A6/A7 sedans were gone within a couple of days of arrival a the dealers.

Interestingly enough, I wrote the above portion before I even looked at the article.



Sales didn't tank because they couldn't sell them. They tanked because they didn't even make them (in favor of EVs).

They chose poorly.

It is rather amusing that you attribute BMWs gains to putting a vehicle in the $40k-$50k range while simultaneously saying that Tesla's losses were due to consumers not wanting to buy $40k-$50k vehicles.

It's really a apples and oranges comparison if we compare GLOBAL sales. BMW and Audi's main market is in EUROPE while Tesla only has a secondary market in Europe and their main market is in the US and China.
Tesla GLOBAL sales are affected by the market conditions in those countries while BMW and Audi are more affected by market conditions in their markets.
Would be interesting in looking at US only sales.. I'm not sure where to find those statistics. Would be interesting to analyze the same companies in the same market. Looking at global sales really does not necessarily reflect the US market and market conditions.

[GrandSportC3]

Actually, looking at BMW US numbers, their gains were all due to EV sales due to production ramp up on those EVs.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Actually, looking at BMW US numbers, their gains were all due to EV sales due to production ramp up on those EVs.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US

From your link:

Battery Electric Vehicle Sales Increase 62.6% vs Q1 2023, Account for 12.7% of Q1 Volume.

12.7% of the TOTAL volume. You know what that means, right? You think that 12.7% of the TOTAL volume accounts for ALL gains?

That's not how math works.

The gain in EV share at BMW was due to them (just like Audi) not producing the ICE vehicles. At least in the case of BMW (NOT like Audi) they did it with less impact on their traditional models. Stealing sales from yourself is not a "gain". The only gain there would be if it was at Tesla's expense... and it may have actually been.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

It's really a apples and oranges comparison if we compare GLOBAL sales.

I could not possibly give a less shits about global sales. I really don't care what they are buying in China and Europe.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Would be interesting in looking at US only sales..

That's exactly what I have been posting. The US market is where I live. It's where my business interests have lived for a long time. I keep up with it. I know it very well.

In the US, BMW sold 6,012 X1s. They sold 14,923 X5s. They sold 10,713 EVs across 4 model lines (i4, i5, i7, and iX).

They sold twice as many X5s as X1s. They sold almost as many X5s as they did X1s and EVs combined.


https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/bmw-x5-sales-figures/

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

From your link:

Battery Electric Vehicle Sales Increase 62.6% vs Q1 2023, Account for 12.7% of Q1 Volume.

12.7% of the TOTAL volume. You know what that means, right? You think that 12.7% of the TOTAL volume accounts for ALL gains?

That's not how math works.

They only had a 2% year over year gain and the extra EV's sold made that difference.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I could not possibly give a less shits about global sales. I really don't care what they are buying in China and Europe.



That's exactly what I have been posting. The US market is where I live. It's where my business interests have lived for a long time. I keep up with it. I know it very well.

In the US, BMW sold 6,012 X1s. They sold 14,923 X5s. They sold 10,713 EVs across 4 model lines (i4, i5, i7, and iX).

They sold twice as many X5s as X1s. They sold almost as many X5s as they did X1s and EVs combined.


https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/bmw-x5-sales-figures/

Now, compare how many X5's and X1's they sold Q1 2023 and Q1 2024..
X1 increased significantly.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

X1 increased significantly.

The 3rd gen X1 wasn't yet widely available in Q1 2023. I'd certainly hope it increased as they were actually made and available. The X1 is still behind where it was from 2016-2021 with the previous generations.

Again, ask the WHY. Not just the WHAT.

In this case... for the most part, you couldn't actually buy them in Q1 2023.

On the X5, same thing in reverse. Production of the X5 was way down due to facilities upgrades and model year changes. They are selling every X5 they make.

WHY. You constantly look at numbers with absolutely no context and come to whatever conclusion it is that you come to. That conclusion in your case will without fail fit whatever narrative you are trying to push. Ask the WHY.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

High interest rates especially effect non entry level vehicles. Harder to sell more expensive vehicles. Furthermore, Tesla did have a factory shut down in Q1 for retooling for the refresh Model 3.

This is a perfect example of you spinning shit to fit a narrative.

Tesla: Harder to sell more expensive vehicles. (Specifically $40k-$50k)
BMW: Growth was due to them selling more X1s ($40k-$50k)

Tesla: Hurt by low Model 3 sales due to retooling and refresh
BMW: Low X5 sales because people don't want them (despite a retool and refresh directly impacting Q1 availability)

Tesla: People aren't buying expensive cars due to interest rates
US Market: With the same interest rates, average new car price increased to $47,000... which is more than the average price of a Tesla. Mercedes, Lexus, Genesis, Lincoln all gained and ALL have a higher average price than Tesla. Cadillac was almost flat (-2%). Audi, even with a complete fk'n shit show not producing their top selling sedans and SUVs still didn't lose as much as Tesla.

Which is it?

Is it interest rates? Is it price point? Is it production delays?

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth on EVERY topic.

Any politician would be proud of your twisting of shit to fit your narrative.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

This is a perfect example of you spinning shit to fit a narrative.

Tesla: Harder to sell more expensive vehicles. (Specifically $40k-$50k)
BMW: Growth was due to them selling more X1s ($40k-$50k)

Tesla: Hurt by low Model 3 sales due to retooling and refresh
BMW: Low X5 sales because people don't want them (despite a retool and refresh directly impacting Q1 availability)

Tesla: People aren't buying expensive cars due to interest rates
US Market: With the same interest rates, average new car price increased to $47,000... which is more than the average price of a Tesla. Mercedes, Lexus, Genesis, Lincoln all gained and ALL have a higher average price than Tesla. Cadillac was almost flat (-2%). Audi, even with a complete fk'n shit show not producing their top selling sedans and SUVs still didn't lose as much as Tesla.

Which is it?

Is it interest rates? Is it price point? Is it production delays?

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth on EVERY topic.

Any politician would be proud of your twisting of shit to fit your narrative.

There are a variety of reasons and market condition. The reason why BMW had gains was due to the X1 and electric vehicle sales which all went up. Most other vehicles went down in sales. Once the same thing happens to the Cybertruck (production ramp and higher production numbers), Tesla will show growth again. Generally, the lowest priced models have increased in sales while the higher priced ones have dropped. Of course, ramping of a new product does affect sales numbers. If Tesla could make 500k cybertrucks in Q2, they would sell 500k cybertrucks but their capacity is limited and production and sales numbers will increase.. The Model Y is becoming dated and many people are waiting for the refresh Model Y (Juniper) just like Model 3 sales slowed when the refresh Model 3 came out. Many people are willing to wait for the refreshed Model Y. There are just so many factors that come into play. You can't judge a car maker by 1 quarter.. Tesla has has bad quarters before and recovered the following quarter.

YouTube

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You can't judge a car maker by 1 quarter.. Tesla has has bad quarters before and recovered the following quarter

Sure. 1 quarter for 1 company is an indicator.

How long has Tesla been hemorrhaging price/margin to try to maintain their growth? Guess what, they have now gone to the point that without the .gov funded $7500 on each car, they would actually be losing money.

Novelty only takes you so far. There's a reason that there is a new iPhone every time you look.

As for the Cyber"truck". Yea, let's wait and see where that turd lands once the novelty fades and it has to stand on actual capabilities and real world performance instead of a bunch of dipshits who want one to say "Look at me!"