Here we go again, USS john Mccain in collision

[DAB]

you would think that there would be several lookouts posted at all times.

[Mike Mercury]

[Norm]

Some more fallout.

WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. Navy has fired two senior commanders in the Pacific region in connection with recent deadly collisions of Navy ships, as part of a sweeping purge of leadership in the Japan-based fleet.

The announcement comes a day before the top U.S. Navy officer and the Navy secretary are scheduled to go to Capitol Hill for a hearing on the ship crashes.

Vice Adm. Phil Sawyer, commander of the Navy’s Japan-based 7th Fleet, fired Rear Adm. Charles Williams and Capt. Jeffrey Bennett, citing a loss of confidence in their ability to command. Williams was the commander of Task Force 70, which includes the aircraft carriers, destroyers and cruisers in the 7th Fleet, and Bennett was commander of the destroyer squadron.

Last month, Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, who previously led 7th Fleet, was relieved of duty.


Navy fires 2 commanders in connection with ship collisions | The Seattle Times

[Olustee bus]

They are reaching very high up in leadership it seems to me. Usually, we complain that they pick a low level scapegoat. Seems to me, due to the timing and nature of these accidents, training was a problem there.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Olustee bus

...training was a problem there.

I was never a part of 7th fleet and I know they do things in a different manner than the US based fleets but this is simply unbelievable that these crews could end up in these positions.

I have posted many times on these collisions. My posts have been almost entirely on the "how" part of the question. I have never been able to figure out (or even have a good theory about) the "why". "They weren't trained" never even entered my head as an option.

As far as I'm concerned, if this really is the case and these crews really weren't trained to be able to carry out the tasks that they are doing on a daily basis, fire every person in the chain that had something to do with it or that simply said nothing.

Fire every CO, XO, CMC, that wasn't screaming to get the resources that their crews needed. This is absolutely unacceptable. I can't even begin to imagine this happening with the US based crews. How in the hell so many people did nothing and let it happen in 7th Fleet is absolutely beyond me.

...and yes, I'm angry.

[VatorMan]

I know as I was leaving the USN, they had started loosening the rules for ESWS because of the females we had on board. They weren't required to actually trace out engineering systems-only produce the drawings based on system drawings.

I'd love to see the qualification books today and how many signatures are required for each sign off. Were the signatures based on real world conditions or simulations ?

[Fasglas]

Things are getting VERY strange.

Navy probes whether hacking contributed to destroyer crash | National and World | sentinelsource.com

Navy probes whether hacking contributed to destroyer crash

By Elias Groll Foreign Policy Sep 16, 2017

The military is examining whether compromised computer systems were responsible for one of two U.S. Navy destroyer collisions with merchant vessels that occurred in recent months, Vice Admiral Jan Tighe, the deputy chief of naval operations for information warfare, said Thursday.

Naval investigators are scrambling to determine the causes of the mishaps, including whether hackers infiltrated the computer systems of the USS John S. McCain ahead of the collision on Aug. 21, Tighe said during an appearance at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Investigators are not, however, considering the possibility that the USS Fitzgerald collision, which took place on June 17, was the result of hacking.

“With the McCain incident happening so close to the Fitzgerald,” questions immediately arose about whether computer manipulation could have been the cause of the crash, Tighe said. The Navy has no indication that a cyberattack was behind either of the incidents, but is dispatching investigators to the McCain to put those questions to rest, she said.

Tighe said the Navy plans to use the results of the McCain probe to include a look at cybersecurity in future investigations.

The two collisions left a total of 17 sailors dead and the Navy humiliated. Chief of Naval Operations John Richardson ordered a halt to operations after the second collision and called on the service to review safety protocols for its global fleet.

While the idea of a cyberattack causing a collision remains purely speculative, U.S. intelligence officials have warned in recent years that this sort of digital threat could pose a major problem for the Navy’s sprawling armada. Tighe said on Thursday that the service has already set aside $1.5 billion between fiscal years 2014 and 2023 to improve defenses.

The Fitzgerald and the McCain, both Arleigh Burke-class destroyers outfitted with a suite of advanced sensors and weapons, represent two of the most capable ships in the Navy’s arsenal. The collisions have raised troubling questions about the readiness of the American Pacific fleet at a time when it faces a number of threats in the region, from North Korean missile tests to China’s territorial claims over disputed islands.

Early assessments of the two incidents have blamed crew training and growing demands on the Navy’s fleet of warships. Following the McCain collision in August, the Navy relieved the commander of the 7th Fleet, Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, citing a “loss of confidence in his ability to command.” The skipper of the Fitzgerald has also been dismissed, along with several of the ship’s officers, for losing situational awareness ahead of the June collision.

If hackers breached the McCain’s digital defenses, it would represent a startling development in naval warfare. American intelligence officials have theorized that hackers working on behalf of an enemy state could conceivably hack into a ship’s computer systems and blind its commander by, for example, displaying an inaccurate location of the ship on its charts.

Such a deception could conceivably result in a night-time crash, such as the one suffered by the McCain. The merchant vessel Alnic MC struck the ship’s left, or port, side and left a huge gash in its hull.

Tighe said the Navy is preparing for potential digital warfare and said the service has to “be able to fight through” a cyber attack. Ships must monitor their own computer systems, she said, and if one method of communication is knocked out, naval forces have to be able to rely on other methods to relay commands and information.

“Semaphores” — the system of communicating by hand-held flags — “are going to be really hard to hack,” Tighe said.

“That’s a joke,” she quickly added.

------------------

Joke? Is this what it is to YOU, Ms. Tighe? A JOKE?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

I'd love to see the qualification books today and how many signatures are required for each sign off. Were the signatures based on real world conditions or simulations ?

As CHENG I was known as "the asshole who expects us to know way too much". I was pretty much the only person who would actually "fail" someone. If you wanted my signature, you earned it. If someone didn't know what the F they were talking about when asked questions about the plant, you can absolutely guarantee that I was looking at who gave the signatures and holding them accountable for it.

If I was sitting on your ESWS board, you better know your sh*t. My life and the lives of the other people onboard depend on you knowing it.

Unfortunately I was in the minority with my approach. Now, that approach is more than likely completely extinct.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Fasglas

Things are getting VERY strange.

...

Navy probes whether hacking contributed to destroyer crash

I may be missing something but I don't see anything in this article that would lead me to believe that anything of the sort actually occurred.

I have no doubt that they are asking the question and at least looking at the possibility. That doesn't mean it actually happened.

Nothing I see in there says anything other than "if" and "theory".

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Fasglas

If hackers breached the McCain’s digital defenses, it would represent a startling development in naval warfare. American intelligence officials have theorized that hackers working on behalf of an enemy state could conceivably hack into a ship’s computer systems and blind its commander by, for example, displaying an inaccurate location of the ship on its charts.

Let's end this right here. The NAV radar is what is used primarily for locating surface contacts during normal steaming.

These are a stand alone system. They are basically a Furuno (or comparable) civilian type of nav radar that is a direct link and not on any network. It would be equivalent to hacking the depth finder on a Bass boat. You can't "hack" something that isn't on any network. Short of somehow manipulating actual radar returns, nobody is getting in and changing what is displayed.

The theory of "displaying an inaccurate location of the ship on it's charts" has absolutely NOTHING to do with running into other ships. Again, the primary method of plotting is a simple hand-held GPS that then gets plotted on a paper chart and then correlated with digital charts. If the points don't line up, flags get raised. They are completely standalone, battery operated devices so that they will actually work if power is lost. There is nothing to "hack" on these GPS systems short of a complete GPS signal manipulation, which would have to happen to multiple units using both civilian and military satellites simultaneously. Even IF somehow false GPS signals were sent and all of that was completely jacked up, it still has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with running into other ships.

[erickpl]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Let's end this right here. The NAV radar is what is used primarily for locating surface contacts during normal steaming.

These are a stand alone system. They are basically a Furuno (or comparable) civilian type of nav radar that is a direct link and not on any network. It would be equivalent to hacking the depth finder on a Bass boat.

The theory of "displaying an inaccurate location of the ship on it's charts" has absolutely NOTHING to do with running into other ships. Again, the primary method of plotting is a simple hand-held GPS that then gets correlated with digital charts. There is nothing to "hack" on these GPS systems. They are not on any network. If somehow false GPS signals were sent, it still has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with running into other ships.

Maybe they watched the Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies where they send the ship offtrack by hacking the GPS satellite system.... LOL

[Olustee bus]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I was never a part of 7th fleet and I know they do things in a different manner than the US based fleets but this is simply unbelievable that these crews could end up in these positions.

I have posted many times on these collisions. My posts have been almost entirely on the "how" part of the question. I have never been able to figure out (or even have a good theory about) the "why". "They weren't trained" never even entered my head as an option.

As far as I'm concerned, if this really is the case and these crews really weren't trained to be able to carry out the tasks that they are doing on a daily basis, fire every person in the chain that had something to do with it or that simply said nothing.

Fire every CO, XO, CMC, that wasn't screaming to get the resources that their crews needed. This is absolutely unacceptable. I can't even begin to imagine this happening with the US based crews. How in the hell so many people did nothing and let it happen in 7th Fleet is absolutely beyond me.

...and yes, I'm angry.

Absolutely, and I do not really know enough to say that training was lax. It should be easy to determine after an extensive review and hopefully we will learn the truth. If the military as a whole is becoming lax in training, we are in deep trouble.

[04 commemorative]

Are the captains trained at "The Lighthouse"

[09CTSV]

My last command before retirement was with Afloat Training Group Atlantic. I can say in 2004, I saw a decline in the training of our fleet. I saw the level of experience coming to the fleet from the "A" and "C" schools and was not impressed. Simple things like how to adjust a pump packing seal gland, do preventative maintenance on a valve, clean a purifier or simple understanding of a fuel or lube oil system were non existent. They dumbed down the engineering training courses so the kids coming to the fleet knew very little. I saw how everyone was about quality of life and getting into 8 or 9 duty sections import and having as many as possible underway. I saw training compromised for operations. Instead of going out and running drills the ships would go out and play war games and then right back into port. I'd like to see the East Coast bring back Gitmo training. Go down there for 4-6 weeks and train until you can safely navigate, fight and repair the ship. The team building in that environment was like nothing I'd ever seen before. You were highly motivated to get out and learn your ship and become a well oiled machine.
I remember seeing civilians loading stores for the crew before deployments, unlike the old days of working parties or all hands working parties to load up before deploying. It was a lot of work but hell it was worth it when it was over.