So, I got the free Full Self driving trial this morning

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Issues such that it debunks your position? Yeah, I can see why you want to dismiss that data.

What exactly do you think it "debunks"?

Even the most devoted supporter has admitted that the shit is unsafe other than on the highway.

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to see the inherent flaw in the "data" claiming that accidents don't happen while using FSD... when FSD turns off before the accident happens.

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm not anti-EV. I am, however, anti-bullshit. The data is incomplete at best. It's a sales pitch and is presented in a way to lead to a conclusion. That's not how data works. Unlike people who have their mind made up in advance, I would actually like to see complete data before coming to a conclusion. I don't want it filtered by Elon to show what he wants it to show and I don't want it filtered the other way either. I don't come up with an opinion and look for data to confirm it. It's the other way around. Data ~~> Conclusion.

If actual well collected data shows that it's safer, great. This is not that.

You're smarter than that.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Thanks for pointing out that there are indeed exceptions... which is why I didn't speak in absolutes and I didn't say ALL of the time.

And yes, unpredictability and actions taken without notice are the ones that people in other cars generally can't avoid. If you were paying attention to the rest of the post that you didn't quote, that is EXACTLY the point I was making. Normal idiots are pretty easy to avoid. Unpredictable idiots are the problem. And FSD is unpredictable.

I typed a huge response to why all of this wasn't logical and erased it. This is what's left....

Here's a list of cars with self driving features. GM, Ford, Tesla, Audi, BMW, Volvo, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, Hyundai...Does your distrust extend to all of the manufacturers that have automated driving technology or is it just Tesla's?



I have done some quick googling and here is what I found....

The NHTSA says that self driving cars are twice as likely to have an accident as human driven cars. 9.1/mmd vs 4.2/mmd. mmd = million miles driven. However, what the NHTSA likes to break out into its own little box is drunk driving fatalities. They conveniently change the measurement standard to hundred million miles driven and its .43. Quick math tells us that is 43/mmd. 5x self driving and 10x normal human operator.

So statistically drunk humans are more unpredictable & dangerous than a self driving car and there are a lot more of them. Neither of them are very good...so try and stay alive out there.

There is your ray of sunshine for the day.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

I typed a huge response to why all of this wasn't logical and erased it. This is what's left....

Here's a list of cars with self driving features. GM, Ford, Tesla, Audi, BMW, Volvo, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, Hyundai...Does your distrust extend to all of the manufacturers that have automated driving technology or is it just Tesla's?



I have done some quick googling and here is what I found....

The NHTSA says that self driving cars are twice as likely to have an accident as human driven cars. 9.1/mmd vs 4.2/mmd. mmd = million miles driven. However, what the NHTSA likes to break out into its own little box is drunk driving fatalities. They conveniently change the measurement standard to hundred million miles driven and its .43. Quick math tells us that is 43/mmd. 5x self driving and 10x normal human operator.

So statistically drunk humans are more unpredictable & dangerous than a self driving car and there are a lot more of them. Neither of them are very good...so try and stay alive out there.

There is your ray of sunshine for the day.

You seem to be looking for some Tesla bias that isn't there. This thread is specifically about Tesla FSD, so that's what I was referring to.

Your list is labeled as: "self driving features". None of those except Tesla include the word FULL. I have an Audi with "self driving features". I have a Cadillac with "self driving features". I have a GMC with "self driving features". I have driven Volvo, Ford, and Hyundai versions as well. That is not even remotely the same as what Tesla is putting out there on the roads with their FULL self driving. None of those are navigating intersections without driver input. None are merging into traffic. None are driving through construction zones. They are all labeled as driver ASSIST functions. They ASSIST the driver. Most require the driver to be in contact with the wheel at all times. GM Super Cruise and Ford's Blue Cruise allow hands free in certain environments and situations only. They do not remove the driver from the equation entirely. The only function a driver serves with FSD is to have "fraction of a second" input when it screws something up.

Words matter. Definitions matter. Trying to equate what Tesla is doing with "Full Self Driving" to those other versions from other manufacturers is apples to giraffes. It's not even remotely close to the same thing.

To answer your question, no, my distrust is not some Tesla biased thing. I don't trust any of them to make a decision for me. I use it on all 3 vehicles that have it, but when I do, I am not browsing the internet believing that it will keep me safe. Audi has 1 of the highest rated adaptive cruise systems out there. I use it to maintain distance on those days when traffic speeds are fluctuating and nothing else. If I see traffic stopping in front of me, especially if it is stopping quickly for some reason, I don't wait for the car, I do it myself.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

So statistically drunk humans are more unpredictable & dangerous than a self driving car.

"Safer than driving drunk"

What an excellent advertising campaign idea.

The saddest part is that you know damn well that people are going to use it for exactly that purpose. Without question.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

You seem to be looking for some Tesla bias that isn't there. This thread is specifically about Tesla FSD, so that's what I was referring to.

Go look at your posting history, its not even a stretch for someone to believe you have a strong anti-Tesla bias. You probably come in second in "tesla posts" you're just on the against side vs GSC3's pro side.

My original post noted that it was a Tesla thread but that part didn't make the cut.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

"Safer than driving drunk"

What an excellent advertising campaign idea.

The saddest part is that you know damn well that people are going to use it for exactly that purpose. Without question.

I don't make the news, i just report it. Those are the facts as reported by the gov't.

Yes they are and should be held accountable for it. On the flip side if that guy that killed my friend's family member had been using FSD, she'd most likely still be alive.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Go look at your posting history, its not even a stretch for someone to believe you have a strong anti-Tesla bias. You probably come in second in "tesla posts" you're just on the against side vs GSC3's pro side.

My original post noted that it was a Tesla thread but that part didn't make the cut.

Sure. Seeing what GSC3 says next is good entertainment.

I've also said numerous times that I have actually considered buying one, but they quite simply don't do what I need them to do.

Go read those many posts. They are not anti-Tesla. They are anti-bullshit. Simply tell the truth and give unbiased data. That is my only ask and damn near every post is to that point. The lion's share of my posts are simply addressing that GSC3 specifically does everything he can to minimize all negatives. I have no problem with Tesla or any other EV. You've never seen me post any of the typical anti-EV propaganda. Outside of thinking that the tax credit is bullshit (which would be true for all things, not just EVs), you've never seen me make a political or idealistic argument against them.

Saying that the Cybertruck is less capable than any other 1/2 ton in absolutely every measure that matters for a work truck is not anti-EV. Saying that Tesla build quality is poor with specific examples is not anti-EV. Arguing that mandatory stops being spun into a safety feature is not anti-EV. Arguing against absurdly skewed "math" that is twisted to make them sound like some sort of savior of humanity is not anti-EV.

I don't hate Tesla. I don't hate EVs. I don't know why anybody would be either on the side of loving them or hating them to the point that facts become irrelevant. They're cars. No different than any other. My problem in this case comes with constant arguments that they are something beyond what they really are. Tell facts as facts. Tell opinions as opinions and let the chips fall where they may. The "safer" argument is a perfect example. What I would like in that case is actual, non-manipulated, unfiltered, complete data. From there, draw a conclusion. Unfortunately, as is the case with many other polarizing things, logic and reason seem to have no place in this discussion.

[jw38]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

"Safer than driving drunk"

What an excellent advertising campaign idea.

The saddest part is that you know damn well that people are going to use it for exactly that purpose. Without question.

He also knows damn well that given the opportunity, drunk Tesla owners will use it to try to get themselves home.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by jw38

He also knows damn well that given the opportunity, drunk Tesla owners will use it to try to get themselves home.

Would you rather they drove themselves?