[Loco Vette]

OK, I am back.

Originally Posted by Joecooool

So we are in agreement that the "47% don't contribute" idea Mitt is pushing really isn't close to being true. When you factor in all the other taxes the majority of these people pay, they are productive members of society. And for the 10% or so of the elderly that no longer work, their going to get a pass because they did work when they were younger.

No we're not. If the only taxes they pay are to secure a future return to them down the road, then they are contributing to their good, not the common good. And by "other taxes", I assume you mean sales tax, etc. These are consumption based and do not "progress" with the payor's income, therefore they are not part of this discussion.

I'm not saying you specifically are responsible for these people. Society as a whole had decided that we don't want to see people starving in the streets.

I musta missed that referendum. And even if it is true, "society as a whole" damn sure did not agree to create a system whereby families can go through 3 or 4 generations with no one holding a job, just reproducing.

And by the way, not all of the 47% Mitt cites are people who do drugs, dropped out of school and had kids. A very large percentage of them include hundreds of thousands of out of work war veterans, millions of college students, and the unemployed actively looking for employment. The number of people you are describing and the right likes to portray as being the typical person receiving government assistance, is anything but. Sure, some of those people are out there, but represent perhaps only 1/5th of the population not paying income taxes.

But the ones that go into the 47% and stay there are there because of poor decisions. People drift in and out of the 47% just like they do the 1%. And where did you get your 1/5 stat? Or is it just your opinion?

They would face civil and federal penalties because the government has stepped in and said you will take care of these people. What your side advocates for is to toss that idea out. That if you can not pay for medical assistance or have insurance, then tough shit. It only because the government has stepped up that the poor are not left for dead.

When did the GOP start consulting you on the platform? No one is advocating that and you know it.

This is a point neither of us can prove conclusively. Its not really relevant to the point either of us is trying to make either.

You're the one who dismissed my statement with no data. What data has been shown supports my point. And no, I'm not pullin all their tax returns in to see.

Economic realities do not excuse us from our moral obligations.

Spoken like a true dreamer. Neither of us can overrule the laws of economics any more than we can the law of gravity. What we can do is look critically at the fact that the "War on Poverty" has been no more effective than the "War on Drugs" and quit throwing more money into the failed machine.

If we have people who are down and out, society has long ago determined that we want a social safety net to help these individuals and families out. What I think many conservatives don't understand is that these is a life time cap on the amount of welfare a person can receive. For most states, its 60 months. The vast majority of people are not on welfare for extended periods of time, most take it when they have to, and strive for gainful employment.

While that may (and I am not gonna go to the effort to research it) that statement is true only in the classic sense of the word "welfare". SNAP, AFDC, etc have no such restrictions.

But the reality is simply this. There will always be millions of jobs out there that do not pay a livable wage or offer benefits people need to survive. Your side doesn't want to pay them more nor use illegal immigrants to fill the positions. So now you are left with simply two outcomes. Pull their benefits and let them fend for themselves, or offer them assistance when they need it. The amount we spend on real welfare and assistance - not social security or medicare but real actual welfare is a fart in the wind when compared to the total US budget. I believe its less than 2% of US GDP.

Not true. If a job has to be done and no one is willing to do it for the wage offered, then the wages offered will go up or the job will go undone. Those immigrants you love so much are exacerbating this problem, by the way.

And all of that money is reinvested into the community.


That is not true. The capital gains tax has only been at about 15% since 2006. http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf

You started with the capital gains rate, I answered, you jumped to the Bush tax cuts, I answered, now we are back to capital cains rates. I will debate either or both of these with you but we have to stay on one subject at a time.

Have fun with Chad.

It was. He said Hi!