The OFFICIAL Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread
 

GSC3 and Phred can preach their Tesla/EV love here and tell us all how great EVs are and how bad ICE cars are so those arguments don't clog up other threads. The potential topics are almost endless:

- What's best for a hot meal, WaWa or Buc-ee's?
- Is your home TV or car touch screen better for movies and video games?
- Do you let anyone eat or drink anything in your car?
- Refueling, which is better; 45 minutes or 5 minutes?
- How often do you drag race your SUV?
- Real pickup or Cybertruck for a work truck?
- Do you fill your gas tank full or stop at 80%?
- Does stopping at a gas station for 5 minutes once/week annoy you?

There are lots more. Go!

:popcorns:

Union picketers have been out in force in front of the new Tesla Dealership being built in Warminster !

People who don’t want to work are always forming mobs. :eek:

EVs are quick. They do not solve any issue and are dumb.


/thread

Next time you meet someone who is itching to tell you about his EV, tell him that it's a coal burner.

:iagree: And there is always something quicker.

This thread does not have "Official" in the title - gonna keep posting to the other threads. :thumbs:

EV's have their place in the automobile world. There are a few things I like
about EV's. The problem is all the BS that EV'ers and the government has
been pushing, is a big negative for this new brand. The public can still think
for themselves and do not like to be pushed into buying a product.

:cert:

Fact or Fiction?: Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed

Is energy always conserved, even in the case of the expanding universe?

Attachment 94197


"The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing."

LINK TO FULL ARTICLE

Until an EV can tow 40,000lbs, 550 miles without stopping, for under $100k = hard pass.

For clean restrooms and miles of overpriced tchotchkes and snack food? Buc-ee's. Yes.

For a hot meal? Tacos at Stripes gas stations. C'mon, Texans, y'all know what I'm talkin' about.....

- What's best for a hot meal, WaWa or Buc-ee's?
My wife's home cooking.
- Is your home TV or car touch screen better for movies and video games?
Meh. Home TV gets limited use as is. No games.
- Do you let anyone eat or drink anything in your car?
Sure, it's a truck. The smell of food covers up the
smell of dog and tools and sawdust and dirt.
- Refueling, which is better; 45 minutes or 5 minutes?
The correct answer is 5 minutes.
- How often do you drag race your SUV?
Don't drag race. Not on a track and not on MTV. :ack:
- Real pickup or Cybertruck for a work truck?
I think you know my answer here. :D
- Do you fill your gas tank full or stop at 80%?
I top off most times. And by "top off" I mean to the top of the fill tube.
- Does stopping at a gas station for 5 minutes once/week annoy you?
I wish I only stopped once a week. :Jeff '79:

This can cause damage to your emissions equipment/fuel tank venting.

Diesel. Not a problem. :seasix:

I traded in my wife's 5 series BMW for a Tesla M3 performance. Wife was not happy.

Doesnt have XM radio
Doesnt have soft close doors.
Not as comfortable as the BMW.

That being said, she loves not having to stop and get gas.

Are they for everyone? Nope.
Do they work for some people? Yep

Do either of those sides agree? Nope.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

I've read that before, but only as related to my CX5 Mazda.

Is that true of all vehicles? I always fill them all the way.

I only see this warning on the 100% reliable interwebs, no warnings on the gas caps, filler pipes, gas pumps, etc.

The big issue is (or should be) the loss of freedom by having EVs forced on us and the purposeful destruction of the gas vehicle market.

But most Americans do not know what liberty is, so they do not know when it's being taken away, so we're on a downward spiral to tyranny.

Fox Business is running a report of a cross country trip. Only complaint so far is almost running out of power when plans changed an GPS showing charging stations off the route. A restaurant was closed so they had to go off the planned route.

This does seem to be the most common complaint. And yet to date not one single government anywhere in the US is forcing anyone to buy an EV. :shrug:

Sure, California made a big announcement about banning the sale of new ICE cars in a few years, but as y'all keep pointing out the infrastructure just doesn't exist to support such a transition. It may still happen, but clearly not on the timetable that California has announced. And since none of you actually live in California, it doesn't affect you anyway. :lol:

But don't let reality get the in the way of a good freak out. :thumbs:

Actually, if you own a home, an EV will give you more freedom than a gas car. Gas has been rationed in the past and there is no reason why it can't be rationed in the future. You can't make your own gas at home. Nobody can ration sunshine and with solar panels, you can be independent from rationing. One reason I oppose Hydrogen is the same reason. You can't make enough Hydrogen yourself, being dependent on a government regulated commodity and pricing thereof. If electric rates go up, solar and backup batteries make you independent from any government rationing.

Holy shit, I don't know where to start. You need some serious history lessons instead of being an internet troll. :rolleyes: You're in the same camp as three liberal friends of mine: I asked them in October 2018 if they could define "liberty." Nothing, and still nothing 5+ years later.

The elites are not directly forcing people to buy EVs, but they are regulating gas vehicles into oblivion. Just keep making stricter and stricter rules so at some point they simply won't work. Tiny displacement turbocharged engines working harder and harder to move heavier and heavier cars because of safety and emission mandates -- yeah that's the answer.

Stockholm Sweden is banning gas/diesel vehicles from downtown next year. But don't worry, it will stop there. Global tyranny will not spread.

So unless you want to walk, ride a bike or horse, you will have to buy an EV eventually because gas vehicles will be regulated out of existence. This shouldn't be like rocket science to figure out.

No the infrastructure does not exist for EVs and this is just fine with the global elites. Americans are so spoiled (that includes you) that we take our mobility for granted. Tyrannies usurp liberties, including the liberty of having mobility.

But you're safe, Communism never spreads. :rolleyes:

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." -- James Madison, Father of the Constitution

“Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people . . . " -- John Adams, Dissertation on Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

"The masses never revolt of their own accord, and they never revolt merely because they are oppressed. Indeed, so long as they are not permitted to have standards of comparison, they never even become aware that they are oppressed." -- George Orwell, "1984"

Attachment 94201

Tesla doesn’t even have Apple CarPlay. Fail.

Sure, just the largest, most populated state in the US plans to ban ice vehicles in a few years…..but you’re right, that’s no big deal really. No big left wing ideas proposed by CA ever spread around the US…..:slap:

It is the same tactic used with the clot shot. You aren't "forced" to get it, but you'll sure be a pariah and a prisoner of your own making if you don't get it.

No, you don't "have to" buy an EV, but gas will have a Federal tax of $6.00 a gallon and there will be a highway tax for non-EVs of $5,000.00 per year to drive on US roads, etc. etc.

I hate to agree but if Dems remain in power, this is about to happen. Better leave Liberal states while you can. I personally favor freedom of choice! Democrats are a disease. They ruin everything..

Many of the mandates we currently live with are the result of California’s commie ideas.

Also...dont forget , we have already paid billions of our hard earned money in tax dollars towards state & federal subsidies for EV manufacturers & charging station installs .....

Point.

unfortunately. That's why it's important to vote to prevent that shit on the federal level. I have no sympathy for the Republican Party and I'm a Libertarian but the Dems are sooooo bad that I vote Republican to vote AGAINST those commies.

I'm an Indy and vote for the repub assholes with pinched nose. It is why I like the Trumpster. He's far from perfect but he's not the typical politician.

It sucks to fight evil with evil but it needs to be done. The Dems are becoming true Marxists.

Agree.
Problem is, the repubs would rather lose graciously than win viciously.

The REPUBLICAN party is a corrupt piece of shit just like the Dem party. Mitch McConnell is the most corrupt of them all. Hopefully he will be out soon. What an old corrupt fart. He should be sent to a nursing home along with BIDEN.

Of course you can make your own fuel. It's as simple as making booze. Far more simple and cheaper than attempting to generate and store electrical power.

Right, you can easily make 10 to 20 gallons of fuel per week, right?
Don't forget that ethanol does not have the energy density of gas and therefore, the car will run on much lower efficiency, needing more ethanol than you would need gas. So, needing 20 gallons per week is no unrealistic. Also, most cars can't handle pure ethanol. They need at least 10% of gas in the fuel.
You'd have a hard time starting a vehicle in the cold with pure ethanol.
In Brazil, they run pure ethanol (they call it alcool) in their cars but it's a tropical country. In Southern Brazil where it gets cold at times, those ethanol fueled vehicles are very hard to start and that's in temperatures around 50 degrees.. Under 50 degrees, you likely won't be able to stat a car running on pure ethanol at all.

I think I'll just interrupt them and say "Have you heard the good news about Jesus?"

This is 100% spot on and fact. And applies to anything else we take for granted that provides us freedom: guns and ammunition, natural gas stoves, gas cans that actually pour, heaters that actually heat, and on and on and on. The gradual process of regulating us into submission and compliance. The longer we sit silently and let the misguided dreams of the few dictate our lifestyles, the more we stand to lose. Wake the **** up, Varla.

I consider the absence of Apple tracking technology to be a plus. :thumbs:

It would be a plus if it didn't have more than enough tracking of it's own to make up the gap...

It's fascinating to me how some folks get all bent out of shape about something that might happen way off in the future, but blithely ignore the loss of privacy and freedom that comes from Surveillance Capitalism that is happening right now.

Tesla is no different than any other current car manufacturer - they all have built in telematics ECUs. Some of them you can't even disable because doing so would prevent the vehicle from operating normally.

Another current threat to privacy and liberty that nobody seems to be bothered about. :shrug:

I’ll just leave this here…

I'm not sure which part is more amusing, that it only went 100 miles or that he had to slow down to 55 to make it even go that far. :rofl:

But... but... the spec sheet says the R1 has an 11,000lb towing capacity!!

I can't wait to see Elon's hideous beast increase that to at least 110.

Idiots.

telsas are on fire, literally!!

https://bakersfieldnow.com/resources...ail_image0.jpg

https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod...R67XDFGNPA.jpg

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...a-170574_1.jpg

Or maybe not...

https://insideevs.com/news/703326/te...ld-range-test/

:iagree:


:rofl:

You want to talk about a WORTHLESS truck, the Cybertruck weighs damn near as much as a diesel dually, and actually will weigh more with an additional 600lb "extended battery" (7,443 vs 7,190lbs). You have a bed the size of an F-150. You'll lose about 1/3 of that with the extended battery and you can't tow a trailer farther than your neighbors driveway. You sure as hell won't be able to do it at anything resembling normal highway speeds, and if you want to actually go farther, you'll have to unhook your trailer every time you stop to fit it in a charger.

Heil Elon!

Restrict the movement of the proletariat. Marxism/Commucrat Agenda Item #3

A ICE vehicle has 10 times higher risk catching fire IN SCALE!! Both statistics based on number of cars sold that caught fire as well as fires by miles driven show that Teslas have significantly lower risk of catching fire.

Worthless?? That's why there are 2 Million orders and 10000 people are ordering every day since the delivery event.

Might want to wash the jizz off your face. :yesnod:

10's of millions bought the pet rock.

You think you had a point?

Rivian’s owners manual should indicate towing should really be limited to <15 minute trips to Bed Bath & Beyond with a small utility trailer.

Yes. It is absolutely worthless as a truck.

The number of people buying them to drive back-and-forth to Starbucks and Target doesn’t change that.

Funny, how specs mean everything to you… Until they don’t. And then it becomes about the number of people who buy them.

Which is it?

The cybertruck is bigger than most diesel dually trucks, has less cargo room than an F150, and likely won’t be able to tow more than 150 miles (150 is a generous estimate). If it somehow can eek out 150, it sure as hell won’t be able to do it at normal highway speed like any other truck can do. We’ve already seen that it has the off-road prowess of a Toyota Camry. You can’t fit anything of size in it, you can’t tow beyond your neighbor’s driveway with it, it can’t go off-road. It absolutely sucks at any stat even remotely relevant to a truck.

So, do “specs” matter or not?

Honest question: What percent of 1/2 ton truck owners do you think frequently haul large trailers for a long distance?

I don't think that there are statistics on that but I don't think that it's many. I owned 6 different pickup trucks (Sierra 2500 Turbo Diesel, Ram 1500, Silverado 1500, F250 V10, S10 Pickup, F150 FX2 Supercrew) and the only time I actually hauled a heavier trailer was when I drag raced my Race Vette. Other than hauling my Race Vette, most of my truck use was to haul stuff from and to my flip homes and rentals to remodel them. So, for those who frequently haul heavy loads cross country, the Cybertruck is not for them. For everyone else, it should work just perfectlly and considering the price of gasoline pickup trucks, it would not take too long time to make up the price difference with gas or diesel savings. 2500 lbs work load is one of the best in class. Also, the Cybertruck is smaller than a F150 Supercrew yet has a longer bed 6 feet vs. 5.5 feet on the F150.

So …the argument is that for everyone who doesn’t intend to ever actually use their truck as a truck, it will work just fine. Yes, thanks for confirming that as a TRUCK it is indeed worthless.

Funny that not long ago you were spouting off about towing capacity and range. “Even while towing.” And bashing the Hummer for being “a joke of a truck”. Keep moving those goalposts.

I guarantee that a higher percentage of 1/2 ton truck owners use their trucks as trucks than people who drag race (but not race because they’re not allowed) their SUV, but that certainly doesn’t stop you from using 1/4 mile times to claim that your Plaid is the greatest thing ever made.

Like I said. With everything you keep spouting about how great they are, stats matter… until they don’t.

Also, why do you keep comparing a 7000lb Cybertruck to stats of a 1/2 ton? Even even at that, you are comparing it to the least capable half ton on the market in the short bed F150, which in itself is telling. Compare similar things, right? Could it be that it has absolutely laughable capabilities if compared to other trucks that are the same size? The other key factor is that while it may not be done on a regular basis, any of the ICE trucks COULD do truck things. You like to use exaggerations to try to deflect, minimize , and hide the (many) negatives. “ Frequently haul heavy loads cross country,”. :rolleyes: The Cybertruck can’t even make a simple outing with a camper or a quick trip to pick something up 100 miles away. It couldn’t even bring go karts to a local race and back. ANY ice truck could do that with ease.

What’s sad is that my Escalade is actually an infinitely better truck than the Cybertruck.

Your ability to continuously try to twist reality into a pile of bullshit about how amazing all things Elon are is pretty absurd. The really ridiculous part is that you actually believe it.

Not really. As of 11 years ago when Hurricane Sandy hit, ALL solar installations in NJ were REQUIRED to be connected directly to the grid. What this meant was that when the grid was down, you had no electrical access to your solar panels, and it was against the law for you to disconnect them from the grid for your own use.

Some months back, I tried to find out if that had changed, and didn't find anything definitive, other than some sites using language like "nearly all" systems are connected directly to the grid.

The point being, if you get solar panels on your house, and plan to use the power from them when the grid is down, you better ask some hard questions of your installer before you pay your money. You had to see the green weenies going apoplectic when the grid was down for 2-4 weeks, and they could not access the power from their panels. Meanwhile, us folks with dino-powered generators were fine. :yesnod:

One other thing: I couldn't find anything definitive, but it seems heavily implied that if you want "net metering", you will be required to have your panels connected directly to the grid. Caveat emptor.

Most people will use their truck around town. I would guess that less than 1% of 1/2 ton pickup truck owners take their truck on frequent long trips with a trailer. That's mostly people with campers or businesses hauling stuff.
The Cybertruck has almost TWICE the payload of a Hummer. The Hummer is a gigantic truck with a payload capacity of a Ranger while the Cybertruck has about the same payload of a gas F150 Supercrew. Again, the VAST MAJORITY of 1/2 ton pickup truck owners will not tow heavy trailers cross country or a regular basis. You know that this is the case. Why does the truck's weight have anything to do with the discussion. It's completely irrelevant as long as the heavy weight doesn't reduce the payload (like in case of the Hummer).
The amount of people with a camper is ridiculously low. It's not a large number at all. Most 1/2 ton trucks will rarely see any days where they drive more than 150 miles in a day with a heavy trailer. I only own a 8 x 5 foot trailer with a maximum weight of 2000 lbs and I have never needed anything bigger and I remodel homes from time to time and haul tile and stuff to the landfill. If you have a camper and you go on frequent long trips with it, don't get an EV truck.. It's that simple. That eliminates probably like 5% of 1/2 ton truck buyers.

Can we PLEASE get an emoji here of a person beating a dead horse? It should obviously be named :gsc3:

I feel this is more to the point that a weak emoji:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-23-2014/02umGQ.gif

You could have again saved lots of words by simply saying it sucks as a truck. :seasix:

You (or any other true believer who buys one) not caring whether it can do “truck” things doesn’t change that.

It is very amusing that your argument started out as it’s a great truck “with great range, even towing”. Now it’s great because nobody cares about those things.

It likely works for 95% of 1/2 ton pickup owners. It probably won't work for 5%.
Every single $80k+ Cybertruck produced will sell for at least the next 4 years.

I never said that they wouldn’t sell. There are people lining up to buy pink cups at Target. This is no different. It’s a novelty and there are plenty of idiots with money.

What’s your point?

My point is that it will work for 95% of 1/2 ton truck buyers.
Most 1/2 ton trucks are used as daily commuters and occasional hauling.
Our work garage is full of pickup trucks. Most of them work in IT and not a profession where they need to haul things on a regular basis.

Yes. It is a novelty that’s just fine for urban techies who worship at the cult of Elon, never leave town, never haul things, never go on trips, and never do anything that requires an actual truck.

I’m glad you finally acknowledge that as a TRUCK… it’s absolutely worthless.

Doesn’t do well in snow….

You would be very wrong if you believe less than 1% of 1/2 ton owners don't use their truck for truck stuff.

42 minutes? If it takes you 42 minutes to make your case for EVs, you are either full of bullshit, or have no idea what you are talking about (which is basically the same as being full of bullshit). You can take your pick which you like, or come back with an explanation that takes less than 5 minutes to make a point. :yesnod:

Certainly not where I’m from but things like “reality” really get in the way of the sales pitch.

See? He predicted you wouldn't like it! :lol:

Then most 1/2 ton truck owners buy their truck as a novelty.
I live outside of town, fairly rural area. Many people have trucks but I only know one of them who hauls a camper across the south with his Titan.
Most truck owners buy pickup trucks for their utility. Those shiny new F150 SuperCrew or Dodge Rams likely will never see the offroad.. Guys who do offroad stuff usually use old dinged up trucks for that and not $60k+ shiny new ones. The VAST majority buy them as daily driver and that they don't have to rent a truck every time they buy larger stuff from Home Depot or Lowes or haul stuff to the landfill. That covers probably most 1/2 ton pickup truck owners. Those who seriously haul large trailers for many miles usually don't buy 1/2 ton trucks. They get at least a 3/4 Ton or 1 Ton truck for that. When I hauled my race car, I first had a Sierra 2500 Turbo Diesel and then a F250 V10. I wouldn't have considered a smaller truck as I hauled my race car through the mountains at times to participate in races. Therefore, for the TYPICAL 1/2 ton buyer, the Cybertruck fits right in. I don't know what percent really go offroad or haul large trailers with a 1/2 ton truck but I believe that it's less than 5% of all 1/2 ton truck owners (at least NEW 1/2 ton trucks).

What percent of NEW CrewCab $60k+ 1/2 ton truck owners take their truck offroad?? I doubt that many do that. Most of the trucks that go offroad are older trucks that are already dinged up. I would bet no more than 5% owner haul LARGE trailers for long distances with their 1/2 ton trucks. I don't know if there is such statistic but I would like to see it if it exists.
As I said, I had 6 Pickup Trucks and I remodeled homes (and still do at times) and I never went offroad and I never hauled more than 8000 lbs

Wrong tires.. The factory all season tires won't cut it in the snow.. Just saying..

Great. So you finally admit that the Cybertruck is a novelty as opposed to an actual useful truck as you tried so hard to argue originally. :thumbs:

And initial real world tests indicate that changing to anything else apparently kills the range even more.

It's perfectly fine for the usage pattern of the vast majority of 1/2 ton truck owners. I personally would suggest that people who want to do true truck stuff will get 3/4 ton or 1 ton trucks, not 1/2 ton.

No doubt that range is impacted on both, EV and gas trucks if you change to offroad rated tires.

The difference is that “range” on a gas truck is at most a minor nuisance.

Although based on the customer demographic, I guess taking even more range out of the Tesla wouldn’t matter if it’s only used to pick things up at Target and make and a quick stop at Starbucks.

The 1 certainty is that it won’t be in a Tesla…

Logical

Just because you never did it doesn’t mean more than 99% don’t. You don’t need to always be hauling an 8,000 pound trailer or rock climbing. Towing a 3,500 pound trailer is done very often. Which is nothing for a 1/2 ton truck but still kills the range on an EV.

He will never acknowledge this. He never does… what you will inevitably see is some ridiculous strawman deflection about regularly pulling large loads cross country.

Interestingly enough, I’m pulling a 3500 pound kart trailer from Cincinnati to Indy and back. It is about 260 miles round trip and is an easy 0 stop drive with the Escalade at 75mph on cruise control. To imagine that you would likely need not just one, but two stops to charge in the Tesla to make the same trip (unless you decide to drive at 55mph to make range) is absolutely laughable.

Edit: 272 miles round trip.

I doubt that many people will go on major road trips during conditions like that. Most people up north will use winter tires during winter season and not all season tires.

At this point, there are no viable EV choices for this type of use.

Why would that be? Then, maybe gas car owners should only power their gas cars with home made gas.. That statement makes no sense. Most EV owners give a F about the environment. None of the Plaid owners I know cares about that.

A 3500 lbs trailer won't cut range anywhere close to a 11000 lbs trailer.
I have towed a 2000 lbs trailer with my Model Y as well as Model X Plaid and efficiency was reduced by about 20 - 25%

Tell us you've never lived in the north without telling us you've never lived in the north. :Jeff '79:

Most people up north do not change to "winter" tires and run all season tires the rest of the year, that went out decades ago. I grew up in Colorado and lived my entire life up north until our move to Florida in 2019. We didn't use "winter" tires for at least 20 years because all season tires worked fine unless it was very deep snow.

Just another set of wheels and tires. No big deal.

Funny that nobody I know has ever had to change tires on any other truck or SUV seasonally. Don’t forget to factor that into the “per mile” cost.

Fitting as the process for manufacturing the batteries is devastating to the environment.

Crazy that the phrase “all season” actually means… All seasons.

Unless you drive a Tesla.

It's a difficult concept to grasp for people who never drive in snow and ice and think changing to "snow" tires every winter is still a thing.

My rental car this week in Utah has all season tires. I should demand "winter" tires. :yesnod:

Please make sure you record that conversation. :lol:

I lived for the first 26 years of my life in Austria/Europe.. Plenty of snow there. In Austria, government actually REQUIRES you to use winter tires from November to March I believe.

I'd think that this applies to most vehicles up north. I grew up in Austria/Europe and it was even required to have snow/winter tires for the winter season. It's actually shocking that you can drive in many US states that have snow with all season tires.

IDGAFF.
Do you like your smartphone?? All that slave labor that goes into those smartphone batteries.. Shame on you :rofl:

Never been concerned about the environment, especially if it's not in our country.

I hauled over 7,000 pounds over 650 miles in one shot, over the Cascade mountains. It was a 12 hour haul with one fuel stop that took minutes. In an 18 year old Toyota Tundra 4x4. No issues, no drama. Attachment 94654

And the month before, hauled a 16 foot trailer loaded with thousands of pounds of stuff from Las Vegas to the SF Bay Area. About 650 miles also. No issues. Same old truck.

So, I once rented a Nissan Sentra out of New Jersey (Atlantic City) and drove up to Westchester County/NY. There was a major snow storm/bilzzard while I was there. I had a hard time getting up most hills with those all season tires. Not really a tire that I'd use if I'd live there.. I would definitely have a set of winter rims&tires. When I lived in Austria, I did have a separate set of wheels&winter tires for my cars.

didn't read

:rofl: :rofl: the irony

Winter tires being far superior to all season has almost nothing to do with snow depth and everything to do with temperature and their ability to stay softer.

All seasons were okay in the 70’s but so were rotary phones.