Hot For Teacher: Houston Teacher Dates 13yo, Kid's Family Supports Relationship

[Bill]

Middle school English teacher wanted on continuous sex abuse charge | abc13.com (http://abc13.com/news/middle-school-teacher-accused-of-getting-pregnant-by-student/1364312/)


Middle school English teacher wanted on continuous sex abuse charge

Wednesday, June 01, 2016 04:07AM
HOUSTON (KTRK) --
A middle school teacher is wanted by authorities, accused of sexually abusing a child. There's a warrant out for her arrest.

Alexandria Vera was an English teacher at Aldine ISD's Stovall Middle School. According to court documents, last summer Vera met a 13-year-old boy who was a student in her 8th grade English class during summer school. A sexual relationship reportedly developed.

Vera claims she and the teen are in love, and she's been introduced to his family as his girlfriend, court documents state. The boy's parents are reportedly accepting of the relationship, including Vera in family gatherings.

Parents at the middle school are sounding off about the accusations.

"I have chills just because of this -- just think that the teacher would even do something like this," parent Mary Claycomb said.

One student told Eyewitness News that other students would talk about Vera's suspicious behavior with the teen boy.

"He like grabbed her butt, and everybody saw it," the student said. "And then they were talking about it."

Court documents go on to detail the fact that Vera allegedly became pregnant with the boy's baby in January, and his family was said to be excited and supportive about the baby. But after an unexpected visit to the school by Child Protective Services in February, when Vera and the boy were questioned about their relationship, she reportedly became nervous and terminated the pregnancy.

Vera is charged with continuous sexual abuse of a child, and is currently wanted for arrest.

Aldine ISD issued the following statement: "Aldine ISD has been made aware that charges have been filed against a former Stovall Middle School teacher involved in inappropriate behavior with a male student. When the allegation was made in April, the teacher was immediately removed from the school and placed on administrative leave. Aldine ISD Police investigated the incident and turned their findings over to the Harris County District Attorney's Office. The safety and security of Aldine ISD's students and staff remains a priority of the school district."

[Bill]

She turned herself in. Compare and contrast the mug shot with the Facebook pics.

Teacher accused of sexual relationship with 13-year-old turns herself in | abc13.com (http://abc13.com/news/teacher-accused-of-sex-with-13-year-old-turns-herself-in/1366303/)

[boracayjohnny]

There's a whole lotta wrong in that story. Idiots.

[Mike Mercury]

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/alexandria-vera-171-e1464752557341.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=379

[OldSarge]

What thirteen year old boy, wouldn't want that.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

That reporter chick is a complete idiot.

"Who are you calling!?"

"Your husband. I'm gonna bang him on your washing machine."

[SnikPlosskin]

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/alexandria-vera-171-e1464752557341.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=379

WTF?

[Bill]

https://www.lapatilla.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/06-01/alexandria-vera-big.jpg

Hey fellas, she will be needing a pen pal while she's in the pokie (no pun intended). Probably only cost you a couple hundred a month for her commissary so she can buy ramen soups, candy bars, and lipstick in the joint.

....and you know she won't be banging the guards, 'cause they're all waaaaay too old for her.

[Mike Mercury]

WTF?

Oh, that's her; in a rare "I'm not a psycho slut" moment. Most of her pics are of the crazy type pose.

[johnnyvettes]

thats one lucky 13 year old . I would have sold my soul to the devil at 13 for that hell I would now

[RedLS1GTO]

thats one lucky 13 year old . I would have sold my soul to the devil at 13 for that hell I would now

:iagree:

Minus the whole knocking her up part...

[SilverBullitt]

I wonder what that kid looks like. What 13 year old could possibly attract a woman like that? I can sorta understand how some of these skanks end up with a 17-18 year old high school student, but a 13 year old? Crazy people are everywhere these days.

[Iron Chef]

With some exceptions, we as a country really need to get out of the morality business.

[Craig]

With some exceptions, we as a country really need to get out of the morality business.

Interesting; do elaborate.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Interesting; do elaborate.

Lemme get this one;

If she wants to smoke his pole let her.

[VITE1]

Interesting; do elaborate.

:iagree:

This is not a case of morality. This is a case of abuse of a position of power.

['77Babe]

I wonder what that kid looks like. What 13 year old could possibly attract a woman like that? I can sorta understand how some of these skanks end up with a 17-18 year old high school student, but a 13 year old? Crazy people are everywhere these days.

:iagree: To me, this is paedophelia.

[Bill]

:iagree: This is paedophelia.

Fixed, and :iagree:

[Iron Chef]

Interesting; do elaborate.

Let's not forget that underage marriages/relationships were and in some cases still are very common worldwide. Even in our own country in past centuries it was very common. In fact, our very own lawmakers who are supposedly held to the highest of standards are some of the biggest sleaze balls on the planet.

We have a tendency to impose our moral standards on others. Just because we as a country find a given activity morally reprehensible doesn't mean it is.

This is not a case of morality. This is a case of abuse of a position of power.

How so? We don't know all the facts, but if what is reported is to be believed, it seems as though everyone involved is ok with this. How would it be any different if she were a neighbor or family friend?

I know...I know...law of the land and all that. And before anyone says anything, I'm not saying it's right. In fact it's a little gross...but it doesn't sound like this teacher is forcing herself on anyone.

[Bill]

:iagree:

This is not a case of morality. This is a case of abuse of a position of power.

Exactly right. And even the most devout libertarian recognizes the distinction between minors and adults. We don't give minors the same rights as adults, simply because they are minors. We also do things to protect minors....simply because they are minors. The unequal power ratio between teacher and student simply exacerbates the fact that we are talking about a 13 year old minor.

[VITE1]

How so? We don't know all the facts, but if what is reported is to be believed, it seems as though everyone involved is ok with this. How would it be any different if she were a neighbor or family friend?

I know...I know...law of the land and all that. And before anyone says anything, I'm not saying it's right. In fact it's a little gross...but it doesn't sound like this teacher is forcing herself on anyone.

The Boy is 13 Years old. How many 13 YO's have the ability to make life decisions like having a child or making a commitment?

The kids parents are F**king nuts as well as the teacher. It's does not matter if it was the neighbor, family friend or just some strange women off the street.

NO 13 YO is capable of have the emotional or intellectual to make an informed decision.

[Iron Chef]

NO 13 YO is capable of have the emotional or intellectual to make an informed decision.

Please spare me the morality play (and 7 type font). I have no doubt that there were guys on this very forum bangin’ away at their 13, 14 or 15 yo girlfriends back when they were in high school. And I’m sure none of them were the least bit concerned about their or the girls ability to make an “informed decision.” Oh...wait...you were 16 or 17. Or maybe 21, 22 or 23 so suddenly it’s all ok, right? :spdchk:

If we are to assume that the story is true as reported, (and as reprehensible as WE may think it is and whether WE like it or not), it is consensual, then answer the question: How, specifically, is this an abuse of power?

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem here, or that these people aren’t seriously messed up, but I don’t think abuse of power is an accurate way to put it.

[Craig]

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem here, or that these people aren’t seriously messed up...

Then what are you saying? Because in your original post, you seemed to indicate that "we as a country" shouldn't have a problem with it. If it was a forty year old male, poking a thirteen year old girl, would/should we have a problem with it?

[VITE1]

Please spare me the morality play (and 7 type font). I have no doubt that there were guys on this very forum bangin’ away at their 13, 14 or 15 yo girlfriends back when they were in high school. And I’m sure none of them were the least bit concerned about their or the girls ability to make an “informed decision.” Oh...wait...you were 16 or 17. Or maybe 21, 22 or 23 so suddenly it’s all ok, right? :spdchk:

If we are to assume that the story is true as reported, (and as reprehensible as WE may think it is and whether WE like it or not), it is consensual, then answer the question: How, specifically, is this an abuse of power?

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem here, or that these people aren’t seriously messed up, but I don’t think abuse of power is an accurate way to put it.

An Adult is taking advantage of a 13 YO child. If you can't see that then you have the problem.

And 2 12-14 YO's are being normally inquisitive. If an Adult comes along and convinces them they can "Teach them" or help them enjoy it more then the adult has crossed the line.

[Kevin_73]

Please spare me the morality play (and 7 type font). I have no doubt that there were guys on this very forum bangin’ away at their 13, 14 or 15 yo girlfriends back when they were in high school. And I’m sure none of them were the least bit concerned about their or the girls ability to make an “informed decision.” Oh...wait...you were 16 or 17. Or maybe 21, 22 or 23 so suddenly it’s all ok, right? :spdchk:

If we are to assume that the story is true as reported, (and as reprehensible as WE may think it is and whether WE like it or not), it is consensual, then answer the question: How, specifically, is this an abuse of power?

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem here, or that these people aren’t seriously messed up, but I don’t think abuse of power is an accurate way to put it.

I agree somewhat with what you said, but I just read somewhere that the court documents in this case state that the boy tried to break up with her at one point, and then the teacher responded by threatening to fail him if he did.

If that is true, then it is absolutely an abuse of power!

[Bill]

In IC's defense, both the teacher and the student probably were not very far removed from Mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise) and in that culture, this kind of thing is tolerated more. All cultures have value, remember?

[VITE1]

In IC's defense, both the teacher and the student probably were not very far removed from Mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise) and in that culture, this kind of thing is tolerated more. All cultures have value, remember?

I hope we let Cannibal Headhunter move into LA, SF, NYC, Boston and The Hamptons and watch how fast liberals stop believing that Bullshit.

[Iron Chef]

Then what are you saying? Because in your original post, you seemed to indicate that "we as a country" shouldn't have a problem with it. If it was a forty year old male, poking a thirteen year old girl, would/should we have a problem with it?

As usual, you read into things what you want and then use a straw man argument. It isn't a 40 year old man and it isn't a 13 year old girl. But if that's what you want, do a Google search for "congressman with underage girl." Or maybe "Police Chief with underage girl." How about "Minister with underage girl."

Oh wait...you didn't do that? :rofl:

I'm saying we're kidding ourselves if we think we hold such a high moral standard and it kinda sucks when our own lawmakers and civic leaders who rail against these social miscreants cannot themselves obey the laws they are supposed to uphold.

An Adult is taking advantage of a 13 YO child. If you can't see that then you have the problem.

And 2 12-14 YO's are being normally inquisitive. If an Adult comes along and convinces them they can "Teach them" or help them enjoy it more then the adult has crossed the line.

Well, that's not what I said and I also said nothing about an adult coming along and teaching anyone anything. So maybe interpretation is your problem.

I agree somewhat with what you said, but I just read somewhere that the court documents in this case state that the boy tried to break up with her at one point, and then the teacher responded by threatening to fail him if he did.

If that is true, then it is absolutely an abuse of power!

CORRECT! And that was not relayed in the article. There ARE situations where there is a clear abuse. Based on the information given, that did not seem to be the case. In fact the article paints a very difference scenario.

[VITE1]

Well, that's not what I said and I also said nothing about an adult coming along and teaching anyone anything. So maybe interpretation is your problem.


I’m not saying there isn’t a problem here, or that these people aren’t seriously messed up, but I don’t think abuse of power is an accurate way to put it

Your quote. An Adult taking advantage of a child for Sex, Money or any other reason is an abuse of thier power over the child.

[Iron Chef]

Your quote. An Adult taking advantage of a child for Sex, Money or any other reason is an abuse of thier power over the child.

Based on the article AS WRITTEN, no one took advantage. It was mutually consensual with the full knowledge (and apparent blessing) of the family. What Kevin pointed out changes the situation completely.

[VITE1]

Based on the article AS WRITTEN, no one took advantage. It was mutually consensual with the full knowledge (and apparent blessing) of the family. What Kevin pointed out changes the situation completely.

And you still fail to accept the fact that the 13 YO incapable of making an informed consensual decision.

And having his family "Accept it" is like saying "Oh it''s OK she/he's a sex slave their Parents approved of it."

[Iron Chef]

And you still fail to accept the fact that the 13 YO incapable of making an informed consensual decision.

And having his family "Accept it" is like saying "Oh it''s OK she/he's a sex slave their Parents approved of it."

That's what this particular family said. Not what I would have said. I could give two shits about how they run their lives.

Of course a teen can't make an informed consensual decision. But a crappy decision doesn't get any better or worse if you're 13 or 30. Being "normally inquisitive" is a weak way of excusing a teen for having had sex with a young adult...which, as we know if we're being honest...happens all the time.

[VITE1]

That's what this particular family said. Not what I would have said. I could give two shits about how they run their lives.

Of course a teen can't make an informed consensual decision. But a crappy decision doesn't get any better or worse if you're 13 or 30. Being "normally inquisitive" is a weak way of excusing a teen for having had sex with a young adult...which, as we know if we're being honest...happens all the time.

It's not the 13 yo I am criticizing. It the 23 yo women. She abused the child, pure and simple.

[Iron Chef]

It's not the 13 yo I am criticizing. It the 23 yo women. She abused the child, pure and simple.

Oh please. There's nothing pure and simple or innocent about either of these two people. They knew exactly what they were doing.

[VITE1]

Oh please. There's nothing pure and simple or innocent about either of these two people. They knew exactly what they were doing.

Incorrect. SHE did. The 13 YO is unable to understand what he was doing.

Since his parents were OK with this I hope the kid is removed from the household.

[Iron Chef]

Incorrect. SHE did. The 13 YO is unable to understand what he was doing.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You really believe that? Kid was grabbing the woman's ass. I'll bet money he knew exactly what he was doing. Hate to break this to you, but June Cleaver isn't raising kids these days.

[VITE1]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You really believe that? Kid was grabbing the woman's ass. I'll bet money he knew exactly what he was doing. Hate to break this to you, but June Cleaver isn't raising kids these days.

So if thats the case your OK with the kid dropping out of school, Drinking, Getting Tattoos and voting?

The 13 YO Did not, does not and never had the ability to make an informed decision. He went with his Dick.

[Iron Chef]

So if thats the case your OK with the kid dropping out of school, Drinking, Getting Tattoos and voting?

The 13 YO Did not, does not and never had the ability to make an informed decision. He went with his Dick.

I don't give a rat's ass what this kid does. He's not my problem, nor is this teacher. But I'm not so naive as to convince myself that these are a bunch of innocent little flowers who are helpless and defenseless and aren't at least partially culpable for the problems they cause. If you want to believe that, it's your business.

[VITE1]

I don't give a rat's ass what this kid does. He's not my problem, nor is this teacher. But I'm not so naive as to convince myself that these are a bunch of innocent little flowers who are helpless and defenseless and aren't at least partially culpable for the problems they cause. If you want to believe that, it's your business.

Because we all know that all 13YO's are able to hook up with and bang hot teachers all on their own. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

And if you want to believe he did this all on his own without the teacher and his other adults enabling and encouraging him you're delusional.

[Iron Chef]

Because we all know that all 13YO's are able to hook up with and bang hot teachers all on their own. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

And if you want to believe he did this all on his own without the teacher and his other adults enabling and encouraging him you're delusional.

Well since you're so big on quotes, here's what I said. I've bolded some words for your convenience:

Oh please. There's nothing pure and simple or innocent about either of these two people. They knew exactly what they were doing.

And we all know that school age children banging their teachers is such an isolated occurrence. And in each and every single case, it was ALWAYS the adults luring these poor unsuspecting little angels to their doom. RIIIIIGHT. :rofl: :rofl:

People don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.

[VITE1]

Well since you're so big on quotes, here's what I said. I've bolded some words for your convenience:



And we all know that school age children banging their teachers is such an isolated occurrence. And in each and every single case, it was ALWAYS the adults luring these poor unsuspecting little angels to their doom. RIIIIIGHT. :rofl: :rofl:

People don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.

So based on your contention because the 13 YO WANTED to F**k his teacher and the teacher and his parent were OK with it the Kid is partially responsible?

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Because we all know that all 13YO's are able to hook up with and bang hot teachers all on their own.
I was, shit was easy.

As a matter of fact, you know what cracks me up? Ugly people that look down at their phone like they have notifications. Come on. You're not fooling anyone. You're ugly. Nobody is sending you anything.

[VITE1]

I was, shit was easy.

As a matter of fact, you know what cracks me up? Ugly people that look down at their phone like they have notifications. Come on. You're not fooling anyone. You're ugly. Nobody is sending you anything.

:rofl:

[Craig]

As usual, you read into things what you want and then use a straw man argument. It isn't a 40 year old man and it isn't a 13 year old girl. But if that's what you want, do a Google search for "congressman with underage girl." Or maybe "Police Chief with underage girl." How about "Minister with underage girl."

Oh wait...you didn't do that? :rofl:

I'm saying we're kidding ourselves if we think we hold such a high moral standard and it kinda sucks when our own lawmakers and civic leaders who rail against these social miscreants cannot themselves obey the laws they are supposed to uphold.


Okay

[Iron Chef]

So based on your contention because the 13 YO WANTED to F**k his teacher and the teacher and his parent were OK with it the Kid is partially responsible?

Yup. It's kinda like the liquor store owner that puts his cash drawer out on the street and expects people not to take money.

You might have this fantasy that all these kids are sweet and innocent, but my daughter teaches grade school. My son coached Middle School. I can tell you FOR A FACT that you're dealing with a completely different type of kid than when we were young. A good deal of them are sexually active. Hooking up is common in High School. My daughter has had to deal with sexual harassment issues among students in grade school. You bet I think there's responsibility there.

[MrPeabody]

I was, shit was easy.

As a matter of fact, you know what cracks me up? Ugly people that look down at their phone like they have notifications. Come on. You're not fooling anyone. You're ugly. Nobody is sending you anything.

Don't bullshit us. I'm pretty sure we've seen pictures of that Disco Hall and Oates hairdo you had in high school.

[VITE1]

Yup. It's kinda like the liquor store owner that puts his cash drawer out on the street and expects people not to take money.

You might have this fantasy that all these kids are sweet and innocent, but my daughter teaches grade school. My son coached Middle School. I can tell you FOR A FACT that you're dealing with a completely different type of kid than when we were young. A good deal of them are sexually active. Hooking up is common in High School. My daughter has had to deal with sexual harassment issues among students in grade school. You bet I think there's responsibility there.

I have no fantasy about the innocence of kids. I lived for 10 years among the welfare class and watched how animals raised animals.

My contention is and will remain so is the the 13 YO was enabled by his adults co conspirators. It was thier JOB to tell him NFW and do whatever it took to prevent him from being just another scumbag.


Just because the kid WANTED to do it is no reason to blame the kid. They have no sense of right or wrong and have neither the emotional or intellectual maturity to make a choice like this. It is totally the adults fault for allowing and enabling this affair.

[RedLS1GTO]

Just because the kid WANTED to do it is no reason to blame the kid. They have no sense of right or wrong...

Are you really saying that a 13 year old doesn't know right from wrong?

I spend a lot of time with my nephew who turned 13 just 2 weeks ago.... I can absolutely promise you that kid knows if he is doing something wrong.

[Bill]

I have no fantasy about the innocence of kids. I lived for 10 years among the welfare class and watched how animals raised animals.

My contention is and will remain so is the the 13 YO was enabled by his adults co conspirators. It was thier JOB to tell him NFW and do whatever it took to prevent him from being just another scumbag.


Just because the kid WANTED to do it is no reason to blame the kid. They have no sense of right or wrong and have neither the emotional or intellectual maturity to make a choice like this. It is totally the adults fault for allowing and enabling this affair.

I think this is really it, in a nutshell. We depend on our parents to teach us that stealing, assaulting people, vandalism, and boinking the teacher are wrong. Many kids don't get that kind of education from home, or from anyone.

[SteelCityBlue]

I wish my parents were that supportive. I would have liked to expand my horizons like that.

AND I WOULD HAVE KEPT MY MOUTH ****ING SHUT!

[VITE1]

Are you really saying that a 13 year old doesn't know right from wrong?

I spend a lot of time with my nephew who turned 13 just 2 weeks ago.... I can absolutely promise you that kid knows if he is doing something wrong.

And I bet between his parents and family thats the way he was Taught. That's their job. go to any Welfare neighborhood and watch how the 13 YO and younger are let louse to run wild like pack animals.

I think this is really it, in a nutshell. We depend on our parents to teach us that stealing, assaulting people, vandalism, and boinking the teacher are wrong. Many kids don't get that kind of education from home, or from anyone.
That's my Point. If a 13 YO WANTS to carry a gun, drive, drink and smoke and the parents let him it's not the kids fault because they wanted to. It's the parents fault for failing to stop them and to teach them .

[VITE1]

I think this is really it, in a nutshell. We depend on our parents to teach us that stealing, assaulting people, vandalism, and boinking the teacher are wrong. Many kids don't get that kind of education from home, or from anyone.

Best synopsis of why America is failing.

http://www.magma.ca/~yeti/troopers.html

Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein, 1959
We don't usually review fiction but, I felt that I really wanted to talk about this book since the movie came out. The movie bears little resemblance to the book in terms of the level of personal philosophy that Heinlein shares with the reader. The following quote is an example of a very perceptive view point on juvenile delinquents and possible solutions (considering he wrote it between 1949 and 1957, it is quite far-sighted). Now this view point may offend people who live by the "politically correct motife", but maybe ... just maybe, that is the problem. (see the Youth Offenders Act)
From Chapter VIII, pp. 90-96:

I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as murder were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America -- Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home-made guns, bludgeons ... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably -- or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assult, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places -- these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools, I simply couldn't. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one -- "Mr. Dubois, didn't they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don't get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad ... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn't happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a 'juvenile delinquent.'"

"Uh, one of those kids -- the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said -- "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit. 'Juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err ... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn't know any better; he was just a puppy."

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up, "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn't he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn't know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn't then know what a sadist was -- but I know pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you've never raised pups."

"Many. I'm raising a daschund now -- by your methods. Let's get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class ...and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. Newspapers and officials usually kept their names secret -- in many places this was the law for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as 'cruel and unusual punishment.'" Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment -- and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mecahnism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh ... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house ... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken -- whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why ... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh ... why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."

"Mr. Dubois," a girl blurted out, "but why? Why didn't they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it -- the sort of lesson they wouldn't forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?"

"I don't know," he had answered grimly, "except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves 'social workers' or sometimes 'child psychologists.' It was too simple for them, apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder -- but that is unlikely; adults almost always act from conscious 'highest motives' no matter what their behavior."

"But -- good heavens!" the girl answered. "I didn't like being spanked any more than any kid does, but when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one when I got home -- and that was years and years ago. I don't ever expect to be hauled up in front of a judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don't happen. I don't see anything wrong with our system; it's a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life -- why that's horrible!"

"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientifc theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives), but their theory was wrong -- half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray. You see, they assumed that Man had a moral instinct."

"Sir? I thought -- But he does! I have."

"No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not -- and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind. These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to acquire any; their experiences did not permit it. What is 'moral sense'? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everwhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do.

"But the instinct to survive," he had gone on, "can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive. Young lady, what you miscalled your 'moral instinct' was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up. A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive -- and nowhere else! -- and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts.

"We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race -- we are even developing an exact ethic for extra-human relations. But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation: 'Greater love hath no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens.' Once you understand the problem facing that cat and how she solved it, you will then be ready to examine yourself and learn how high up the moral ladder you are capable of climbing.

"These juvenile criminals hit a low level. Born with only the instinct for survival, the highest morality they achieved was a shaky loyalty to a peer group, a street gang. But the do-gooders attempted to 'appeal to their better natures,' to 'reach them,' to 'spark their moral sense.' Tosh! They had no 'better natures'; experience taught them that what they were doing was the way to survive. The puppy never got his spanking; therefore what he did with pleasure and success must be 'moral.'

"The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual. Nobody preached duty to these kids in a way they could understand -- that is, with a spanking. But the society they were in told them endlessly about their 'rights.'

"The results should have been predictable, since a human being has no natural rights of any nature."

Mr. Dubois had paused. Somebody took the bait. "Sir? How about 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'?"

"Ah, yes, the 'unalienable rights.' Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry. Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If the chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is the least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.

"The third 'right' -- the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is ismply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives -- but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."

Mr. Dubois then turned to me. "I told you that 'juveline delinquent' is a contriction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue -- indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be, a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents -- people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail.

"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights' ... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."

[RedLS1GTO]

And I bet between his parents and family thats the way he was Taught. That's their job. go to any Welfare neighborhood and watch how the 13 YO and younger are let louse to run wild like pack animals.

In your original comment below:

They have no sense of right or wrong and have neither the emotional or intellectual maturity to make a choice like this.

Who is "they"? The way I read it was 13 year olds in general, as in this was a general comment based on age.

If you want to say that THIS kid was never taught "right" and "wrong" you may have a case and based on what I see here I would probably agree, but not as a blanket statement about 13 year olds in general.

I know that at that age I certainly knew when I was doing something wrong.

[VITE1]

In your original comment below:



Who is "they"? The way I read it was 13 year olds in general, as in this was a general comment based on age.

If you want to say that THIS kid was never taught "right" and "wrong" you may have a case and based on what I see here I would probably agree, but not as a blanket statement about 13 year olds in general.

I know that at that age I certainly knew when I was doing something wrong.

Children are not born with a sense of right or wrong. it is learned from family, friends schools and other places. it's the culture they are raised in.

Many children have been taught well. Way to many have not as the OP is an example of it.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

I'd dance the chocolate cha-cha with that teacher.

[VITE1]

I'd dance the chocolate cha-cha with that teacher.

You'd travel down Knogers Hershey Highway.

[Aerovette]

In IC's defense, both the teacher and the student probably were not very far removed from Mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise) and in that culture, this kind of thing is tolerated more. All cultures have value, remember?

I was close friends with a girl who had a daughter at 13 . She was Hispanic and honestly didn't think anything of it. She thought it was cool to have a daughter that was like a little sister. :willy:

[Craig]

I'd dance the chocolate cha-cha with that teacher.

You're waaaay too old for her.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

You're waaaay too old for her.

I'm only 41 years older than the kid. It's not THAT big of a gap.