Build me a C2

[Sea Six]

I'm thinking I might keep my '66.

I've sold a couple of cars, might have a buyer for a third. Currently my '66 has a 2004 ZZ4 GM crate motor with probably 15,000 miles on it. I'm thinking about beefing it up to give it a renewed interest on my part, especially since I've been looking at other classic cars and nothing is catching my interest. This is a really nice car and it might be better to just keep it and put a few $K in it than sell it and deal with getting something else.

I know next to nothing about engines or hot rodding cars. All advice needs to be painfully detailed and leave no gaps for me to fill in.

I'm going to redo the exhaust. Currently it has headers which I think I could probably keep. Everything else is a cobbled together mess and I want it gone. I'm thinking side pipes. :D

Gonna keep the ZZ4. What I want is a motor that has the kind of really loping idle that shakes the car all around and sounds incredibly nice and deep. Lets the neighbors know every time I start the car.

What types of side exhaust options are there out there? Do I need a new cam? What type? Other parts?

Currently has a 4bbl carb. Want to keep this setup.

Tranny is an M21 which I'd really rather not change out. It was rebuilt around the time the current engine was installed. I don't plan on power shifting at 8,000 rpm ever. If it grenades on me I'll just deal with it then.

Tires?

What else am I leaving out that needs consideration?



In a nutshell: if this were your car, and you had a budget of around $5,000 including all labor and parts, what specifically would you do?


:waiting:

[Kerrmudgeon]

Unfortunately you can't just do a couple of things and forget about the rest Clark. Especially if you want a lopey idle. Have you ever lived with a cam like that, or sidepipes? Trust me, you'll get pretty sick of both of them very fast.
You need to take into consideration what you want to do driving wise, and everything is related, trans, rear end ratio, everything.

Solid lifters, or juice. Roller set up, or flat tappet. Todays oil can turn a 10K$ build into junk in a few hundred miles if you don't know what you're doing.
Get to know an old school wrench head around you and do it together, but it ain't cheap anymore.
Your z24 is probably set up pretty good as is. You could go a little lumpier, but what rear end is in it? Sidepipes will scare the neighbors just by themselves! :rofl:

[Sea Six]

Unfortunately you can't just do a couple of things and forget about the rest Clark. Especially if you want a lopey idle. Have you ever lived with a cam like that, or sidepipes? Trust me, you'll get pretty sick of both of them very fast.
You need to take into consideration what you want to do driving wise, and everything is related, trans, rear end ratio, everything.

Solid lifters, or juice. Roller set up, or flat tappet. Todays oil can turn a 10K$ build into junk in a few hundred miles if you don't know what you're doing.
Get to know an old school wrench head around you and do it together, but it ain't cheap anymore.
Your z24 is probably set up pretty good as is. You could go a little lumpier, but what rear end is in it? Sidepipes will scare the neighbors just by themselves! :rofl:

This isn't going to be a daily driver.

I don't know what rear end is on the car- I'll find out though.

I don't know what any of those things you suggested are, or what the different effects of each is. What would you do and why did you select what you did if it were your car?

The guy who works on my cars was listing off a whole list of items that he said would bring a Lopey idle and bring the hp from 350 currently up around 450, and he figured around $3,000 in parts. Cam and a bunch of other stuff. I didn't write any of it down.

I know I need to do several things, not just one or two... that's why I'm asking for options and explanations as to what each choice means!

Details, please.

:waiting:

[Sea Six]

Oh, by the way, I won't be doing any of the work myself.

Let's make that perfectly clear. :funny:



I want the end result, not the actual experience of doing it. Working on cars is not my thing.

Owning them and driving them is my thing.

[Kerrmudgeon]

First, find out the ratio in the rear end. Changing that is $$$ and if it's a highway gear there's no use doing radical changes to the motor unless you want to go highspeed racing. BTW 100 extra horses is going to cost a lot more than 3K i'm thinking.

do you have the specs on the current motor?

BTW sidepipes get tiresome, at least they did for me. Sitting in traffic sucking in fumes at idle isn't fun, and forget having a conversation or listening to the radio! :rofl:

Do some research and find out some stuff.....:thumbs:

[Sea Six]

First, find out the ratio in the rear end. Changing that is $$$ and if it's a highway gear there's no use doing radical changes to the motor unless you want to go highspeed racing. BTW 100 extra horses is going to cost a lot more than 3K i'm thinking.

do you have the specs on the current motor?

BTW sidepipes get tiresome, at least they did for me. Sitting in traffic sucking in fumes at idle isn't fun, and forget having a conversation or listening to the radio! :rofl:

Do some research and find out some stuff.....:thumbs:

Ok... yes, I don't want to breathe exhaust... didn't think about that. And being able to converse inside the car is also important. Maybe sidepipes aren't for me.

[Kerrmudgeon]

Here's a nicely built 350, probably about 8K in parts alone.

Listen to the cam.....that's a Comp Cams Thumper which is designed to get the sound you want......Lumpy.

Small Block Chevy 350-Thumpr Cam - YouTube

[Sea Six]

Here's a nicely built 350, probably about 8K in parts alone.

Listen to the cam.....that's a Comp Cams Thumper which is designed to get the sound you want......Lumpy.

Small Block Chevy 350-Thumpr Cam - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzHsLKNGQbc)

That is exactly what I had in mind.

[Sneaks]

A nice lopey cam, a good set of heads, and the right 4bbl set up can get you the extra 100 ponies you're looking for. I would have my mechanic contact Comp Cams and get some recommendations. That lope isn't going to do you any good if it isn't right for your set up. The more lope, "bigger cam", the more air and fuel you need to move through the heads. This means bigger chambers, larger valves, stronger springs, and a 4bbl large enough to move sufficient fuel to feed it.

[Kerrmudgeon]

A nice lopey cam, a good set of heads, and the right 4bbl set up can get you the extra 100 ponies you're looking for. I would have my mechanic contact Comp Cams and get some recommendations. That lope isn't going to do you any good if it isn't right for your set up. The more lope, "bigger cam", the more air and fuel you need to move through the heads. This means bigger chambers, larger valves, stronger springs, and a 4bbl large enough to move sufficient fuel to feed it.

Edelbrock aluminum head complete are around 1200$ if I remember right. But you have to know the chamber size etc. Then a new Thumper roller setup is probably 500$, complete 2.5 inch under car pipes and mufflers around 400$ plus headers, 250$min........plus misc. stuff and LABOR! Yikes. :willy:

It doesn't take long to blow through a pile of green. :(

Oh ya....intake and carb....500$ :D

[Steve Austin]

The ZZ4 already has a roller . A bigger roller cam will not be that much $$$. Just get one that will work with the current block. If you get some aftermarket heads plan on $2k. They need to match the cam and have small chambers like the ZZ4 heads to keep compression up.

[LATB]

In a nutshell: if this were your car, and you had a budget of around $5,000 including all labor and parts, what specifically would you do?




I'd sell it for the 35K. Add the 5K. And go buy something for 40K.

[CertInsaneC5]

5K. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
THE ONLY WAY that is going to happen is if you wrench on it yourself. Don't even waste your time with that budget. :funnier: :cert:

[mrvette]

Just what EVER you do, no NOT do business with TPIS up in Chaska Minn. they sold me a POS cam that had an intermittent idle to it, it was called the ZZ9 cam to fit a ZZ4 engine, I have essentially a ZZ4 engine, with the rockers and rollers.....L98/ZZ4 heads, headers, H pipe exhaust and two MAGNAFLOW stainless muffs out back, obviously over the last 20 year my car has been worked over extensively, even the previous owners who did the body work/tail lights it was an old show car.....
obviously being an old ET for the last 60 years, I have DPFI in it, did it myself.....obviously I think you can see the interior off one of the sites, and you see what I mean....ME, I"d ditch that carb so fast and put on an L98 system for like 350 bux....pick one up at the vette show this coming weekend.....

total install, maybe a grand, if that these daze....

I not a fan of lumpy cams and all that shake/rattle/rolling......nore side exhausts as your lady friends WILL ATTEST.....

:issues:

[RonC5]

ZZ4 is a great motor, you would really not need to do anything. It probably would have a mild lope that would come out with side pipes. You can ad the factory pipes, around 1900 at Corvette Central. C2 Corvette Side Exhaust (http://www.corvettecentralexhaust.com/c2/stock/side-exhaust/)

Hedman makes headers to fit the factory sides, $200
Hedman Husler 68280 Header Corvette SB 63 82 Side Exh | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hedman-Husler-68280-Header-CORVETTE-SB-63-82-SIDE-EXH-/181481581201?fits=Model%3ACorvette)

The other option is the header/sidepipe combo. Prices vary

Hooker Headers Super Competition Sidemount Headers and Accessories - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS (http://www.jegs.com/p/Hooker-Headers/Hooker-Headers-Super-Competition-Sidemount-Headers-and-Accessories/753672/10002/-1)

You may also change the rear filler panel to block off the stock exhaust holes.

[DAB]

I'd sell it for the 35K. Add the 5K. And go buy something for 40K.

:iagree::iagree:

[Kerrmudgeon]

The ZZ4 already has a roller . A bigger roller cam will not be that much $$$. Just get one that will work with the current block. If you get some aftermarket heads plan on $2k. They need to match the cam and have small chambers like the ZZ4 heads to keep compression up.

Summit Racing has Edelbrock aluminum heads loaded for around 800$. Add some roller rockers, and pushrods to that. So I was close at 1200$ Big block stuff is way more expensive.

I think I would go for a Thumper cam, carb and intake, save the headers, new under car exhausts. ZZ4 heads should breathe pretty good. A lot less than 5K.
It won't be another 100 horse, but you'd feel a big difference for sure.
BUT it all depends on the ratio in the back..........:yesnod:

[CertInsaneC5]

Summit Racing has Edelbrock aluminum heads loaded for around 800$. Add some roller rockers, and pushrods to that. So I was close at 1200$ Big block stuff is way more expensive.

I think I would go for a Thumper cam, carb and intake, save the headers, new under car exhausts. ZZ4 heads should breathe pretty good. A lot less than 5K.
It won't be another 100 horse, but you'd feel a big difference for sure.
BUT it all depends on the ratio in the back..........:yesnod:

It only would be 5k or less if he was doing at least some of the work himself. No way in hell is that going to happen if someone else does it. Unless he is getting a /favor job.

[OddBall]

First, you'd have to change your handle to Sea Two

or C2
or See Too
or Si Dos
...perhaps C-cup...

[lspencer534]

Clark, I'm afraid with you plan and a cap of $5K will just leave you with a different cobbled up mess. Your money cap will perhaps take you only 40% of the way there.

Specifically, if I were to do side pipes, use the original kind. They give the perfect look to the car, and it's not completely true than you can't have a conversation or listen to the radio with them. You do get used to them; besides you can simply roll up the windows until you get used to the sound. I have never smelled exhaust with mine. Just remember that you have to cut your body to install them.

Kerrmudgeon is right about the nuisance of a lopey engine: It turns a good-driving car into a hard to handle beast. I agree that your current engine shouldn't be changed. My guess is that you make only $5K worth of changes you might increase HP by 50. That's just not worth it. And I wouldn't put 2X or 3X that into the car since you'll never get that money back.

[Fasglas]

Not a fan of side exhaust, though the sound is hard to beat.

Might take a look at:

Corvette Chambered Exhaust Kit, Small Block, Stainless Steel, With 2-1/2 Exhaust Manifold, 1964-1967 (http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-chambered-exhaust-kit-small-block-stainless-steel-with-2-1-2-exhaust-manifold-1964-1967.html)

http://htsmall.ecklerscorvette.com/assets/corvette/images/size/600x/sku/35299.jpg

Seems well within your budget.

:cert:

[CertInsaneC5]

Clark, I'm afraid with you plan and a cap of $5K will just leave you with a different cobbled up mess. Your money cap will perhaps take you only 40% of the way there.

Specifically, if I were to do side pipes, use the original kind. They give the perfect look to the car, and it's not completely true than you can't have a conversation or listen to the radio with them. You do get used to them; besides you can simply roll up the windows until you get used to the sound. I have never smelled exhaust with mine. Just remember that you have to cut your body to install them.

Kerrmudgeon is right about the nuisance of a lopey engine: It turns a good-driving car into a hard to handle beast. I agree that your current engine shouldn't be changed. My guess is that you make only $5K worth of changes you might increase HP by 50. That's just not worth it. And I wouldn't put 2X or 3X that into the car since you'll never get that money back.

This. ^^^^^

[Sea Six]

I'd hate to cut the body up to put in side exhaust.

What's the biggest exhaust diameter I can safely put through the factory exhaust holes in the rear?

[Sea Six]

Clark, I'm afraid with you plan and a cap of $5K will just leave you with a different cobbled up mess. Your money cap will perhaps take you only 40% of the way there.

Specifically, if I were to do side pipes, use the original kind. They give the perfect look to the car, and it's not completely true than you can't have a conversation or listen to the radio with them. You do get used to them; besides you can simply roll up the windows until you get used to the sound. I have never smelled exhaust with mine. Just remember that you have to cut your body to install them.

Kerrmudgeon is right about the nuisance of a lopey engine: It turns a good-driving car into a hard to handle beast. I agree that your current engine shouldn't be changed. My guess is that you make only $5K worth of changes you might increase HP by 50. That's just not worth it. And I wouldn't put 2X or 3X that into the car since you'll never get that money back.

I'm not trying to get X amount of horsepower gain.

I just want to put new life and new interest in the car to the point where I'll keep it and drive it a few more years. Basically make it have a great sounding exhaust note, for a few $K.

Since it already has headers and a ZZ4 and, *needs* a new exhaust system already IMHO, I'm wondering what I can do for a few $K and get something more interesting to me.

This thing ain't ever going anywhere near a track. Ever. Prolly won't care enough about hp increase to even pay someone to dyno it.

Basically I wanna be a middle-aged, overweight, balding, white guy wannabe muscle car owner poser who stopped spending money after he got a bad-assed sounding car that already looked pretty danged good.

You know the type... the kind of corvette owner that gives you a blank stare when asked what rear end is on the car presently.
:waiting:

[CertInsaneC5]

Then just take the mufflers off and be done with it. :cert:

[lspencer534]

I'd hate to cut the body up to put in side exhaust.

What's the biggest exhaust diameter I can safely put through the factory exhaust holes in the rear?

The body cutting isn't severe but it will have to be done with stock side pipes. I like the idea of chambered pipes under the car. Don't waste your time with N11 mufflers; they produce no sound difference. I don't think you need an increased exhaust size since even stock mufflers are not restrictive.

[mrvette]

I'm not trying to get X amount of horsepower gain.

I just want to put new life and new interest in the car to the point where I'll keep it and drive it a few more years. Basically make it have a great sounding exhaust note, for a few $K.

Since it already has headers and a ZZ4 and, *needs* a new exhaust system already IMHO, I'm wondering what I can do for a few $K and get something more interesting to me.

This thing ain't ever going anywhere near a track. Ever. Prolly won't care enough about hp increase to even pay someone to dyno it.

Basically I wanna be a middle-aged, overweight, balding, white guy wannabe muscle car owner poser who stopped spending money after he got a bad-assed sounding car that already looked pretty danged good.

You know the type... the kind of corvette owner that gives you a blank stare when asked what rear end is on the car presently.
:waiting:

Physically I resemble your comments above, but there is NOTHING STOCK about my car, not ONE aspect of it, it's a hobby car, sounds like you don't want to do anything yourself, so my advice is somewhat limited in effectiveness.....:cert:

[Sea Six]

Not a fan of side exhaust, though the sound is hard to beat.

Might take a look at:

Corvette Chambered Exhaust Kit, Small Block, Stainless Steel, With 2-1/2 Exhaust Manifold, 1964-1967 (http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-chambered-exhaust-kit-small-block-stainless-steel-with-2-1-2-exhaust-manifold-1964-1967.html)

http://htsmall.ecklerscorvette.com/assets/corvette/images/size/600x/sku/35299.jpg

Seems well within your budget.

:cert:

Is this the whole exhaust system including mufflers?

And will these work with the existing rear exhaust hole cutouts?

[Sea Six]

How do I find out what rear end is on the car now? As in what kind of hp/torque it can handle, ratio, etc.

[DAB]

i've never had an exhaust worth $5,000.

some have been termed priceless, others worthless, but none valued at $5,000.








:leaving:

[Sea Six]

i've never had an exhaust worth $5,000.

some have been termed priceless, others worthless, but none valued at $5,000.


Yes, but add in a slightly lopier cam for a cooler sound, installation (do you gotta remove the engine to change out the cam?), tires, and whatdya get up to?

[Sea Six]

*tyres

[mrvette]

Yes, but add in a slightly lopier cam for a cooler sound, installation (do you gotta remove the engine to change out the cam?), tires, and whatdya get up to?

Jack up the rear, chock the front wheels, and in neutral.....take some chaulk/marker with you under there, mark the drive shaft and both rear wheels....I always do it on the bottom, square up.....turn the shaft and watch the wheels you should have posi so both wheels turnat same rate, very carefully count the revs of the driveshaft...and as the wheels get close to square up position again you need count the % of travel it takes to get the wheels in position.....

so suppose like me a 336 rear which was stock for my car with the Muncie in it...I have a 200 4r for the overdrive.....at any rate, the shaft turns 3x and the wheels are almost square, up, so how much % more rotation you need to square them up....simple....1/3 of a rev more is .36 50% more is .55 etc.....

:seasix:

generally NO on engine removal, but you do pull the entire accessory crap, fans, pumps, balancer, radiator, any aux coolers, and loosen the A/C condenser to you get just enough length to get the cam out....that works on my '72....no guarantees on your C2



:leaving:

[lspencer534]

Is this the whole exhaust system including mufflers?

And will these work with the existing rear exhaust hole cutouts?

There are no mufflers in a chambered exhaust. They're designed and look like what a side pipe is under the pretty cover. Having the exhaust go out the rear cuts the noise considerably.

I think the messing with the cam just for engine sound is overkill. The chambered exhaust will sound like a mild cam.

[Fasglas]

There are no mufflers in a chambered exhaust. They're designed and look like what a side pipe is under the pretty cover. Having the exhaust go out the rear cuts the noise considerably.

I think the messing with the cam just for engine sound is overkill. The chambered exhaust will sound like a mild cam.

:iagree:

Do the exhaust, and it should deliver what you seem to be looking for, PLUS, you'll be $$$ ahead.

[Sea Six]

There are no mufflers in a chambered exhaust. They're designed and look like what a side pipe is under the pretty cover. Having the exhaust go out the rear cuts the noise considerably.

I think the messing with the cam just for engine sound is overkill. The chambered exhaust will sound like a mild cam.

Is it going to be street legal?

And can you hold a conversation inside the car with the top up and driving around town?

[Grey Ghost]

The guy that bought my '65 had a speed shop build him a solid lifter motor for it. The correct cast # block, all shielding, cam, etc...It upped the car value $6k IMHO. I don't know what he had to spend for the rebuild or if he already had the correct block. I think my last motor build was in the $2500 range 15yrs. ago. So you might add a touch of value after it is all said and done or it comes out near a wash.

Factory side exhaust only came from St. Louis built cars - not AO Smith built cars. You can add it without much cutting - someone added it to my '66. There is also a proper 'factory' way of doing it or making it work like on my '66. It ad the factory looking exhaust. There was a company (Allen's side exhaust) or something that made options for how loud you wanted them to be. I imagine $2k or more to add them these days...?

Sell the ZZ4 for some cash. Sell it while it is in the car so people can hear it running, etc...Find a correct block, build a stout solid lifter motor, and have some fun would be my suggestion!

[Sea Six]

Per GM's website:

ZZ4 350 Small Block Crate Engine | Chevrolet (http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-zz4-350.html)

The ZZ4 350 crate engine is Chevrolet Performance’s original affordable crate engine. In Turn-Key form, it comes with everything you need to get it running in your project vehicle.

High-flow aluminum heads are the keys to the ZZ4’s robust 355 hp and 405 lb-ft of torque. They boast 163-cc intake runners, raised exhaust ports, and tight, 58-cc combustion chambers that enhance compression and power. The heads feature 1.94/1.50-inch valves for efficient performance.

The rest of the ZZ4 350 is comprised of premium materials including a brand-new four-bolt block, forged steel crankshaft, high-silicon pistons, and a hydraulic roller camshaft.

It also includes an aluminum intake, Holley four-barrel carburetor, and HEI distributor, as well as a starter, water pump, fuel pump, and front-end accessory drive kit — including an air conditioning compressor, alternator, and more!

[lspencer534]

Is it going to be street legal?

And can you hold a conversation inside the car with the top up and driving around town?

It's as legal as side pipes, which when they were new were legal. I'm walking a fine line here, but under-the-car chambered exhaust is much quieter than side pipes. There are people who would argue with that, but I'd question their actual experience with them. My experience has been that once you're up to speed they're almost quiet. Even getting up t speed is quieter than side pipes.

Look at it like this: With side pipes the exhaust exits just a couple of feet from you ears. Rear exit adds several feet to that, and the noise doesn't bounce off walls like side pipes. Actually with rear exit your car is outrunning most of the rear noise.

[LATB]

If you want a nice exhaust note...

Get the 5.0 Mustang. I think they sound awesome.

[Sneaks]

My guess is that you make only $5K worth of changes you might increase HP by 50. That's just not worth it.

He can grab a 100 horses for less than $600. Just takes a little "juice" is all.
:D

[Grey Ghost]

Allen's Stainless Exhaust (http://www.allencorvetteexhaustsystems.com/)

[Kerrmudgeon]

Chambered exhausts are straight through pipes, no mufflers. And they are ILLEGAL in certain states. Check it out before you buy one. BUT, IMHO they sound very raspy and sharp. Assured to make neighbors hate you! I ran 2+1/2in pipes on full length headers into 12 or 14 inch turbo mufflers, (available any where) and that produces a nice mellow rumble until you put your foot in it, then music.....and it's all behind you which is nice and easy to live with. If I remember the long pipes had to be squashed into ovals to go through the frame, but it was easy for a shop to do. Check the outlets...you may be limited to 2+1/4 outlets so that's what you'd run. I filled those holes in the rear valance, which by the way you would have to fill with side pipes as well. I ran straight out the middle with slight downturns like old Jags had. Looked very cool. (no spare carrier)

Rear end ratio is on the housing. Get the number off the housing around the drain plug somewhere, and look up that number to get the ratio. Stock was 3.36, but you could have anything in there. My 66 had 3.08s for the highway, and I put in 4.10 which was the wrong one for me. Absolutely no good on the highway. What does it rev at 60mph?
Gene gave you the old way to check, and really the only sure way.:seasix:

[Fasglas]

Is it going to be street legal?

And can you hold a conversation inside the car with the top up and driving around town?

Personally used the Eckler chambered system on my '71.

Small block, non headers. Included stock appearing tips, (rectangular). Kit fit perfectly, everything included.

Sound was more aggressive, BUT, not overpowering, even with top down which was 95% of the time. Good sound at hammer drop. :yesnod:

Would I buy another system? YES.

[Fastguy]

I would run the chambered exhaust. I would buy a good set of tires. By good, I mean sticky performance tires. the only issue with that is you will throw a lot of sand on the body.

[ApexOversteer]

I'd look into the RPO N11 "Off Road Exhaust" mufflers myself... definitely louder than the standard cans... Corvette Central has them for a couple hundies...


350c.i. ZZ4....

LPRfuZF3s4E



300hp 327....

evWTvbjBRKw

KWoRBY0lexc

[ApexOversteer]

I would run the chambered exhaust. I would buy a good set of tires. By good, I mean sticky performance tires. the only issue with that is you will throw a lot of sand on the body.

Some clear wrap on the trouble spots and that sand problem is solved...

[CertInsaneC5]

I'd look into the RPO N11 "Off Road Exhaust" mufflers myself... definitely louder than the standard cans... Corvette Central has them for a couple hundies...


300hp 327....

evWTvbjBRKw



350c.i. ZZ4....

LPRfuZF3s4E

That does sound sweet. :cert:

[aj]

Based on old and questionable memory. Rear gears in most mid-years would have been 3:08, 3:36, 3:55, 3:70, 4:11, and god forbid 4:56.

My original 63 340, close ratio trans, 4:11. Blew the rear and tried the 4:56. That lasted all of a week before I pulled them and went back to 4:11.

If you have the wide-ration trans don't go lower than 3:70. If you do the car won't run as you expect. Also at 70 mph the 4:11 turned the engine at 3K cruise. OK in a ragtop with top down but hell with top up or a coupe.

[Steve Austin]

Look at the Edelbrock Performer RPM kit. Cam, heads and intake all together. little under $2k. They have more than one kit but one has heads that have 185 cc intake runners. Move a good amount of air with good air speed. Matched cam should thump a little. My C3 had Hooker headers/sidepipes when i got it. Sounded great. I put unde car pipes on it because my neighbors bedroom was 25' from my car port and it rattled their windows on cold mornings. :D:D Damn I miss those days.:drivingskid: