Plumbers, what are the odds...

[lspencer534]

my water pipes have burst? At my workshop I have a sink and a toilet. Cold water only, no water heater. During this cold weather I left the sink faucet dripping since that has always preventing freezing pipes in the past. This time it didn't.

Since the pipes were "open" (faucet open and dripping) would that lessen the chance of a pipe bursting since there was room in the pipe for ice to expand? Or is that nor true, or is it impossible to say?

[RED-85-Z51]

I turned on my garden hose and left it hooked up to my shop power washer, with the handle blocked open...cracked the spigot and let it dribble all night...seemed to protect the unit, but the whole unit is covered in 4" of solid Ice...so...only time will tell if I saved a 500 dollar pump or not. Generally..al long as water can move freely, it wont freeze, however...even a drip rate, can freeze up.

[lspencer534]

I turned on my garden hose and left it hooked up to my shop power washer, with the handle blocked open...cracked the spigot and let it dribble all night...seemed to protect the unit, but the whole unit is covered in 4" of solid Ice...so...only time will tell if I saved a 500 dollar pump or not. Generally..al long as water can move freely, it wont freeze, however...even a drip rate, can freeze up.

Yep, I found that out. Surprised me, but I guess it got cold enough for that to happen.

[Ol Timer]

Behold a frozen waterfall. Moving water will freeze when cold enough.

http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/61/426861/1/75306643.gtfYiMwe.VW6Q4787.jpg

[Jeff '79]

The pipe still could have burst at an elbow.
You won't know until it completely thaws out and a gusher ensues.

[DAB]

just replaced a frozen and cracked valve.

outlet of the 3000 gallon above ground cistern, about 2400 gallons in tank.

spun off the cracked valve (only leaked when opened), got a little wet at 36F, spun on the new valve (3/4" boiler drain valve with hose connection should suffice; valve seat is nice and close to the threads, so less chance of freezing).

pro tip: apply teflon before taking off the old valve. :yesnod:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Since the pipes were "open" (faucet open and dripping) would that lessen the chance of a pipe bursting since there was room in the pipe for ice to expand? Or is that nor true, or is it impossible to say?
Not a Plumber, but I know a few things about piping systems. (Save it meatheads. :D )

You'd have to let it run pretty hard. A drip won't do much.

pro tip: apply teflon before taking off the old valve.
Pro question: How do you accomplish this?

[Blademaker]

Not a Plumber, but I know a few things about piping systems. (Save it meatheads. :D )

You'd have to let it run pretty hard. A drip won't do much.


Pro question: How do you accomplish this?

Ummmm.......a Teflon spray?

[DAB]

Not a Plumber, but I know a few things about piping systems. (Save it meatheads. :D )

You'd have to let it run pretty hard. A drip won't do much.


Pro question: How do you accomplish this?

on the new valve meat head. :issues:

[Jeff '79]

Pro question: How do you accomplish this?

:lol:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

on the new valve meat head. :issues:


Pardon my confusion. :lol:
apply teflon before taking off the old valve.

[Jeff '79]

Pardon my confusion. :lol:

I was wondering wth he was talking about too.
He worded it wrong.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

He worded it wrong.
Ya THINK?!?!?!?!

:rofl:

[78SA]

Apply a thin coat of vegetable oil to the seal of the door to keep them from freezing shut.

[Jeff '79]

Apply a thin coat of vegetable oil to the seal of the door to keep them from freezing shut.

The door of the valve?

This thread confuses me.:shots:

[DAB]

Ya THINK?!?!?!?!

:rofl:

Frozen fingers and brain.

:issues:

[Grey Ghost]

I had to thaw out my well pump this morning...even having let water drip overnight. It has an enclosure, pipes insulated, etc...not enough to keep it from freezing up in this extreme weather though.

I have winterized unoccupied homes before. Turn off power to water heater. Shut off water supply. Run all of the water out of the pipes and heater. You can buy a gallon of RV antifreeze at Wal-Mart or RV centers. Pour some in the toilet bowl and tank. Also, pour down any sink that has a trap. It will keep the still water from freezing.

[Ol Timer]

Applying vegetable oil to a seal has got to be tricky business.

[DAB]

Propylene glycol is food safe.

[CP]

I turned on my garden hose and left it hooked up to my shop power washer, with the handle blocked open...cracked the spigot and let it dribble all night...seemed to protect the unit, but the whole unit is covered in 4" of solid Ice...so...only time will tell if I saved a 500 dollar pump or not. Generally..al long as water can move freely, it wont freeze, however...even a drip rate, can freeze up.

Guess you never saw pics of the frozen Niagara Falls.......

[SQUIRMIN VERMIN 84]

Applying vegetable oil to a seal has got to be tricky business.

:rofl:

[6spdC6]

I had to thaw out my well pump this morning...even having let water drip overnight. It has an enclosure, pipes insulated, etc...not enough to keep it from freezing up in this extreme weather though.

I have winterized unoccupied homes before. Turn off power to water heater. Shut off water supply. Run all of the water out of the pipes and heater. You can buy a gallon of RV antifreeze at Wal-Mart or RV centers. Pour some in the toilet bowl and tank. Also, pour down any sink that has a trap. It will keep the still water from freezing.

Like many others you forgot to mention a spot that can cause a problem. Up where I live on the lake we have lots of summer homes/cabins and this is common. We can easily hit -20-30 many times in the winter!

The sprayer on the kitchen sink will hold water in the loop under the counter. The easiest way to get this water out is pull the sprayer out as far as you can as the whole house is draining and blow into the sprayer a couple time while holding the nozzle open. Gets the water out. In the spring time the local hardware shop sells plenty of replacement sprayers available for the many folks that do not know this.:lol:

[Datawiz]

Applying vegetable oil to a seal has got to be tricky business.

Do they try and bite you when you apply the oil?

[mrvette]

Do they try and bite you when you apply the oil?

NOT OUR NAVY TRAINED SEALS< .....


:rofl:

[Jeff '79]

Did it spew, Spence?
It's all thawed out , I presume...

[lspencer534]

Although it was 47 degrees today, the pipe is still frozen. That pipe is on the North side of the house, so it gets no direct sunlight. Besides, we all know that it won't thaw until I'm at work....

[Jeff '79]

Although it was 47 degrees today, the pipe is still frozen. That pipe is on the North side of the house, so it gets no direct sunlight. Besides, we all know that it won't thaw until I'm at work....

:rofl: You're fk'd.

[lspencer534]

:rofl: You're fk'd.

Yup. First a burst water pipe. Then repair it while slopping around on wet floors. Then try to dry out the wall and the floors. Then re-insulate the wall and repair the paneling.

The last time I had a burst water pipe, I tried to fix it while the temps were in the 30s. I literally couldn't get the copper pipe hot enough to make the solder stick.

[Jeff '79]

Yup. First a burst water pipe. Then repair it while slopping around on wet floors. Then try to dry out the wall and the floors. Then re-insulate the wall and repair the paneling.

The last time I had a burst water pipe, I tried to fix it while the temps were in the 30s. I literally couldn't get the copper pipe hot enough to make the solder stick.

I don't mean to laugh, but I've repaired my share of them in rental properties when the idiots would leave a door open or some other Bozo move.
You're in the denial mode now. I've been in that mode a few times, thinking it's gonna be ok, when in the back of my head, I knew I was screwed.
I hope that it turns out ok for you because I know what a pita it is to fix that stuff. Good luck man!
That being said, buy a better torch.:D

[09CTSV]

Yup. First a burst water pipe. Then repair it while slopping around on wet floors. Then try to dry out the wall and the floors. Then re-insulate the wall and repair the paneling.

The last time I had a burst water pipe, I tried to fix it while the temps were in the 30s. I literally couldn't get the copper pipe hot enough to make the solder stick.

Instead of soldering the pipes use Gatorbite fittings. I used them to install my hot water heater about 3 years ago. It took all of 5 minutes to hook up the hoses and wire up the heater. Easiest install of plumbing I've ever done. These work on copper or plastic.
Shop plumbing fittings at Lowes.com: Search Results (http://www.lowes.com/Plumbing/Pipe-Fittings/Push-Fittings/_/N-1z10xw3/pl?Ntt=plumbing+fittings#)!

[lspencer534]

Instead of soldering the pipes use Gatorbite fittings. I used them to install my hot water heater about 3 years ago. It took all of 5 minutes to hook up the hoses and wire up the heater. Easiest install of plumbing I've ever done. These work on copper or plastic.
Shop plumbing fittings at Lowes.com: Search Results (http://www.lowes.com/Plumbing/Pipe-Fittings/Push-Fittings/_/N-1z10xw3/pl?Ntt=plumbing+fittings#)!

That is a good invention! Thanks! :cert:

[09CTSV]

Saves a lot of time and frustration with the plumbing. They also sell a little wrench you use to pull the fittings back off the piping. I bought the wrench just to see how it works. Did a great job and no leaks. Great for fixing a pipe which has burst or a hard to get at solder/glue area.

Good luck with your pipe, hopefully it did not burst. Lot's of broken pipes up in our area of Indiana.

[Aerovette]

My fool proof method for avoiding any type of impact from ice, broken pipes, frozen doors and locks etc.
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Live in the south :D

[Jeff '79]

Saves a lot of time and frustration with the plumbing. They also sell a little wrench you use to pull the fittings back off the piping. I bought the wrench just to see how it works. Did a great job and no leaks. Great for fixing a pipe which has burst or a hard to get at solder/glue area.

Good luck with your pipe, hopefully it did not burst. Lot's of broken pipes up in our area of Indiana.

Odds are it's gonna pop in an elbow. Those work fine on straight runs, but he'll still need his soldering skills for the elbows.
A few tips.
1) Buy a really good tip for your propane can if you're not using acetalene.
2) Sand all joints that you'll be soldering really well.
3) Use really good flux from a plumbing supply house.

You should have no problem realizing enough heat in the copper, no matter what the temperature, unless the water is not totally drained out.

[lspencer534]

Odds are it's gonna pop in an elbow. Those work fine on straight runs, but he'll still need his soldering skills for the elbows.
A few tips.
1) Buy a really good tip for your propane can if you're not using acetalene.
2) Sand all joints that you'll be soldering really well.
3) Use really good flux from a plumbing supply house.

You should have no problem realizing enough heat in the copper, no matter what the temperature, unless the water is not totally drained out.

Thanks for the tips. Here's another one you may not know: Sometimes the water just won't stop flowing to the place you need to solder, preventing the proper heat-up. Loosely roll a small piece of bread to stick in the pipe while you solder. The bread will easily dissolve and cause no problems.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Pro tips, literally:
You can solder in temperature below zero. I know, I've done it.
Invest in a tubing brush. 1/2" and 3/4". Clean joints are critical to achieve good solder flow.
Heat. When using the torch, direct the heat at the socket side of the joint. The heat from the joint will draw the solder in. Think capillary action.
The "Bread trick" works OK, but you need to be fairly quick about it getting the joint soldered up.
Copper piping systems are flexible. You can usually flex the line somewhat to drain the water out and get your joint made.
You'll need sandcloth to clean the male end of the pipe. Scotchbright from 3M works great. I put an entire air compressor system in at 3M using that shit.
You'll need flux. "Nokorode" has been the industry standard for 100 years. This product might not be available at your local home improvement store. Tinning flux is OK, but if you f the joint up, you'll have to clean it up again.
WATCH YOUR HEAT. Again, heat the fitting. When the hot fitting melts the solder, it about right.
The typical solder joint takes whatever sized piping your soldering. In other words: A 1" solder joint will take 1" of solder off your roll. Any more that that and it's going on the ground not in the joint.


http://www.rectorseal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/nkrdregflux.jpg

[Jeff '79]

Pffft!... That's what I said in simpleton terms.
That seems a bit complicated for Spence.:D

Sanding and good flux is key.
I use steel brushes for inside the elbows.

[JRD77VET]

Pro tips, literally

Thanks Thomas :cert:

I can stick weld, I can mig weld, I can tig weld, I can even gas weld but can't solder with a propane torch to save my life :banghead:

Looking over your list, I may have had the incorrect flux :slap:

[Jeff '79]

Thanks Thomas :cert:

I can stick weld, I can mig weld, I can tig weld, I can even gas weld but can't solder with a propane torch to save my life :banghead:

Looking over your list, I may have had the incorrect solder :slap:

And what solder would that be?

You mean flux?

[JRD77VET]

And what solder would that be?

You mean flux?

yup, edited :leaving:

[Jeff '79]

yup, edited :leaving:

Ya, the right flux is really the key to a good joint...:yesnod::rasta:

[lspencer534]

Pffft!... That's what I said in simpleton terms.
That seems a bit complicated for Spence.:D

Sanding and good flux is key.
I use steel brushes for inside the elbows.

I just "saudered" your front door to your house and all your car doors shut. I'll be through with your barn by the time you read this.

[Jeff '79]

I just "saudered" your front door to your house and all your car doors shut. I'll be through with your barn by the time you read this.

LET ME IN!!!

I'M FREEZING!!

[Burro (He/Haw)]

I may have had the incorrect solder
Most of the solder you get these days is 95/5. 95% Tin and 5% Antimony. It's lead free. This solder doesn't flow quite as well as 50/50. I believe it's been outlawed on domestic systems due to the lead content.

Sterling is very common.
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/12VG86_AS01.JPG

The problem with propane torches is some of them don't get very hot so you struggle a little. I don't think I've ever seen anything but an Acetylene B tank on a job. Ever.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

I hate this crap. It's OK on the small diameter stuff, but when you start getting into 2" and above I think it's a PITA if you gotta un-sweat something and clean it up again.
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/a0/a0c3b77c-b527-4d1c-89de-ff2b3c8d4b58_300.jpg

[JRD77VET]

Most of the solder you get these days is 95/5. 95% Tin and 5% Antimony. It's lead free. This solder doesn't flow quite as well as 50/50. I believe it's been outlawed on domestic systems due to the lead content.

Sterling is very common.
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/12VG86_AS01.JPG

The problem with propane torches is some of them don't get very hot so you struggle a little. I don't think I've ever seen anything but an Acetylene B tank on a job. Ever.

This house was built in 1945 and my previous house was built in 1875. I'm positive the 50/50 was used in both. I "used" to be able to solder, maybe it's the new solder that's screwing me up. Plus you can't get the real MAPP gas anymore either. Now what's labeled as MAPP doesn't burn as hot. :cuss:

[lspencer534]

LET ME IN!!!

I'M FREEZING!!

You don't have your acetylene torch with you? Tsk, Tsk....

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Now what's labeled as MAPP doesn't burn as hot.
It's also a dirtier gas then acetylene. You don't see a lot of it with the Steamfitters. The Ironworkers use it pretty regularly though. 99% of that trade is fillet welds. Shitty cuts aren't really a big deal to them.

[JRD77VET]

It's also a dirtier gas then acetylene. You don't see a lot of it with the Steamfitters. The Ironworkers use it pretty regularly though. 99% of that trade is fillet welds. Shitty cuts aren't really a big deal to them.

To over simplify, Steamfitters have to have perfectly clean and pure welds ( due to the pressures involved) and Ironworkers are joining metal pieces. :yesnod:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

To over simplify, Steamfitters have to have perfectly clean and pure welds ( due to the pressures involved) and Ironworkers are joining metal pieces. :yesnod:

We had an issue once on a job replacing a 36" 300# weld neck flange. The piping system was very old. The pipe we were welding to was in rotten shape, so every time you'd get a good pass going the arc would dance around something terrible. It wasn't an x-ray weld so it wasn't that big a deal, but it was frustrating. Thats why I prefer new construction. It's new. :D

[JRD77VET]

We had an issue once on a job replacing a 36" 300# weld neck flange. The piping system was very old. The pipe we were welding to was in rotten shape, so every time you'd get a good pass going the arc would dance around something terrible. It wasn't an x-ray weld so it wasn't that big a deal, but it was frustrating. Thats why I prefer new construction. It's new. :D

You want to talk about arc dancing? We did a prototype job for a well known oil drilling company. The "steering" head portion was 17-4PH and had four extremely powerful magnets in it and it had to be welded.

We had our best welders ( Brian who could TIG weld so consistently it looked like it was painted & Jeff who had all kinds of top certs ) and neither could do more than strike an arc. A 500 amp TIG welder couldn't stay on location long enough to melt metal. It looked like ball lightning the way the arc was blowing off the parts.

We helped develop laser welding so these parts could be used as designed :seasix:

( freaking engineers, " I drew it, make it work" :bslap: )
:rofl:

[mrvette]

We had an issue once on a job replacing a 36" 300# weld neck flange. The piping system was very old. The pipe we were welding to was in rotten shape, so every time you'd get a good pass going the arc would dance around something terrible. It wasn't an x-ray weld so it wasn't that big a deal, but it was frustrating. Thats why I prefer new construction. It's new. :D

You and my hotrodder buddy across the river sound alike, same lingo, he does similar Union jobsite work all over the country.....he does all the welding on my various car projects.....

Years ago we got into building....get THIS SHIT@@@@!!, BDSM gear for the major players, as in outfitting two BDSM niteclubs, on outside the beltway off Fulton Blvd in Atlanta Ga, another down the road here in Florida....

I got to shake hands with a Mafia MADE MAN....NO SHIT@@@!!! but that was over ten years ago....:rofl:

OH the crap we built, you wooden believe the description anyway....top of the list was a Guillotine....it sure as HELL looked and functioned REAL, but it was fake, but the slap of the blade was LOUD!!!! we had 4X total safety involved, no matter what.....

the rest was much more tame.....


:rofl:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Doesn't look like the lawyer cared much for my advice. :rofl:

[Doug28450]

Doesn't look like the lawyer cared much for my advice. :rofl:

Give him time, he'll be back. He's preparing a lawsuit.

[Jeff '79]

Doesn't look like the lawyer cared much for my advice. :rofl:

You have to mop up and tear the wall out first...
Besides... My advice was better.
Sucka!:Jeff '79: