AWD vs. RWD with winter tires [Archive]

09CTSV

12-30-2013, 10:02am

Between the X5 and TrailBlazer SS both of them are AWD. I use a snow tire set up on the X5 but have all seasons on the TBSS. The X5 does much better in the snow and slush because of the snow tires and the x-drive system. The TBSS does real good in the snow. When we had the RWD Impala SS, the AWD of the TBSS with the all season tires went places the Impala only thought of going.

Mike Mercury

12-30-2013, 10:09am

the most benefit for a vehicle driven in the snow is -at a minimum- to have the
steered-wheels powered.

AWD/4WD adds even further capability... and a sense of smugness :)

VITE1

12-30-2013, 10:09am

I had a 1995 Impala SS with snow tires all around and for the first season I had a AWD STS V8.

Both handled well in the snow. The AWD gave me better feel through the corners,. the Impala lost some traction on the front end but not much.

My STS now has snow tires all around and it's great in the snow.

Cybercowboy

12-30-2013, 10:15am

I can tell you my AWD Acura MDX is flippin' amazing in snow and ice. It boggles the mind how easily it handles it. When we got 22" of snow a couple of years ago, I got around no problem while most others were totally unable to go anywhere that wasn't plowed. The bottom of the vehicle has a big skid plate and if the snow is deeper than the clearance, it just glides on top.

...Whitepower...

12-30-2013, 10:33am

Some of the most fun i ever had driving was when i was up in NY in my DSM. Turbo AWD imports kick ass in the snow.

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/5409_100783103266509_2521026_n.jpg

...Whitepower...

12-30-2013, 10:34am

the most benefit for a vehicle driven in the snow is -at a minimum- to have the
steered-wheels powered.

:iagree:

AWD/4WD > FWD > RWD in the snow.

simpleman68

12-30-2013, 11:07am

Millenium Vette

12-30-2013, 11:25am

For winter driving and comparing the same car, do you think that a RWD car with winter tires could perform nearly as well or better than AWD using all season tires? :bigears:

In what conditions? If it is not deep snow but is slippery, the performance would likely be close. In deep snow, the AWD with all seasons will be better.

A RWD car with snow tires - can't even equal a FrontWD car in the snow.

So, no; it can't come close to an AWD :nonod:

It depends more on the tires. Have you ever driven a FWD or AWD car with performance tires in the snow? They are no better than a RWD, or in the case of FWD, even worse. It is easy to correct a skid in a RWD, but when the ass swings out on a FWD, it takes more skill to recover.

:cert:

Luke@tirerack

12-30-2013, 11:47am

For winter driving and comparing the same car, do you think that a RWD car with winter tires could perform nearly as well or better than AWD using all season tires? :bigears:

it would be very close in acceleration but, the winter tire shod car would stop and turn better

A RWD car with snow tires - can't even equal a FrontWD car in the snow.

So, no; it can't come close to an AWD :nonod:

see above

the most benefit for a vehicle driven in the snow is -at a minimum- to have the
steered-wheels powered.

AWD/4WD adds even further capability... and a sense of smugness :)

one still has to stop ... tires matter

:iagree:

AWD/4WD > FWD > RWD in the snow.

any platform is dramatically better with the correct tire for the conditions.

Cars of today have many systems that give the driver much better control. What many people fail to realize is that ABS and traction-control systems do not improve or create traction, they limit the performance of your vehicle to the traction available which comes down to your tires and how much grip they have. All-wheel/four-wheel drive vehicle's ability to accelerate in slippery conditions provides a lot of confidence although it doesn't really offer any unique advantage when the vehicle has to stop or turn. This is because the other vehicles also use all four tires to provide braking and cornering traction. Since four-wheel drive vehicles actually weigh more than their two-wheel drive counterparts, bringing them to a stop or turning a corner actually requires more traction.

Whether your vehicle has anti-lock brakes, traction control, a vehicle stability system, four-wheel drive or all-wheel drive, it is your tires that provide the real traction. Obviously, the more tire traction these systems have to work with the better.

Admiral Blue

12-30-2013, 11:53am

Admiral Blue

12-30-2013, 11:55am

I have never driven FWD or AWD with performance tires. I have only lightly driven my wife's FWD. I hate it. RWD for me. Like you said, I feel like you have more control once you start to slip and slide.

Mike Mercury

12-30-2013, 12:37pm

Luke;

I am not trying to sell tires.

:)

the OP asked:
AWD vs. RWD with winter tires ; do you think that a RWD car with winter tires could perform nearly as well or better than AWD using all season tires

answer is... no way in hell are they the same in the snow; nor even close to each other. :nonod:

Luke@tirerack

12-30-2013, 1:00pm

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfuE00qdhLA?wmode=transparent&rel=0&autohide=1&show info=0&enablejsapi=1

http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index.jsp?video=23&tab=winter

Yerf Dog

12-30-2013, 1:41pm

For me AWD is great in the snow. Had an 03 Evo.

FWD is really good with the right tires. MS3, Mitsu GS-T

RWD is OK if you're careful.

DropTheTop

12-30-2013, 1:41pm

Millenium Vette

12-30-2013, 1:49pm

^^ Very nice Luke :thumbs:

Snow tires on my 2WD truck (all four corners) totally transform its capabilities in the snow.
On my GF's FWD Sebring (all four corners) it's incredible.

Snow tires (no matter what you drive) FTW!

[Luke@tirerack]...We call them winter tires now...[/Luke@tirerack]

:leaving:

Seriously, there is nothing like winter tires.

Burro (He/Haw)

12-30-2013, 2:23pm

Well, I'm waiting for snow. I just put 4 Blizzaks on my wife's Camaro.

99 pewtercoupe

12-30-2013, 2:39pm

In what conditions? If it is not deep snow but is slippery, the performance would likely be close. In deep snow, the AWD with all seasons will be better.

It depends more on the tires. Have you ever driven a FWD or AWD car with performance tires in the snow? They are no better than a RWD, or in the case of FWD, even worse. It is easy to correct a skid in a RWD, but when the ass swings out on a FWD, it takes more skill to recover.

:cert:

Check out a recent review by Dan Neil of the WSJ for an Audi RS7 Quatro which was delivered for the test with high performance tires for a test in cold weather. Even something as capable as an Audi Quatro can be like a pig on ice with the wrong tires

Audi RS7 Quattro Is a True Fairweather Friend - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303932504579252373888749190)

Mike Mercury

12-30-2013, 2:46pm

It depends more on the tires. Have you ever driven a FWD or AWD car with performance tires in the snow?

no.

The OP specifically said "AWD with all-season tires"

we're way off subject here.

Luke is trying to prove the value of a RWD car without snow tires... versus a RWD vehicle with snow tires.
That is not what the OP originally asked.

RWD always tries to push the front of the car straight forward; regardless of the way the steering wheel is turned. FWD, and AWD are far superior in that respect.

09CTSV

12-30-2013, 3:13pm

I'll stick with the Winter tire set up and X-Drive to get me through the winter. So far the Pirelli's ice and snow tires have been great, even in the 315/35/20 size on the rear.

Dave

12-30-2013, 7:17pm

For winter driving and comparing the same car, do you think that a RWD car with winter tires could perform nearly as well or better than AWD using all season tires? :bigears:

The answer is YES, a RWD car with good winter tires could outperform an AWD car with all season tires. However, it will depend on the tires on each vehicle. There are a lot of "all season" tires out there that are positively dreadful in the snow. Some car manufacturers prioritize snow performance lower than other companies, so similar looking OEM tires can be quite different from one another.

In terms of performance, the car with winter tires is much more likely to stop and corner better in snow than the one with all seasons. Straight line acceleration will likely favor the AWD due to it asking less from each contact patch, but the tire's capability in snow is an obvious consideration that could favor the RWD, though unlikely.

Admiral Blue

12-30-2013, 8:12pm

Thanks, Dave. That's a great answer but it complicates my decision because it sounds like RWD with winter tires is completely manageable. Thanks for the info. :seasix:

Nemesis

12-30-2013, 8:35pm

Thanks everyone. I live in Chicago. We have nasty winter weather but in reality, there are only a handful of days when you actually have to drive on unplowed roads. So this would be for those times with a couple inches on the ground or heavy snowstorm where the roads are not completely cleared yet.

The subject car would be a 3-Series BMW.

:cert:

Assuming you have good snow tires....

I drive a RWD 3 series BMW (E36) in the snow. It's quite possibly the best of all the vehicles I've ever owned. I drive circles around FWD and RWD cars all winter. It only got stuck when the snow was too deep for the front tires to climb over. Of course, AWD would have been beneficial that day, but that was 1 storm in the entire winter.

I read about half the thread, and I disagree with almost every single post. The solution to this issue is not about the drivetrain setup. RWD, FWD, AWD doesn't matter much. A car's ability to perform in the snow relies largely on it's weight distribution. I've driven FWD cars that can't get moving on a small incline or go around a turn over 30mph without understeering. I've driven RWD cars that prefer to travel backwards.
Again, the closer the car's weight distribution is to 50/50%, the better it will perform.

This is more a long ramble than a helpful post, but whatever. Get good snow tires and stick with the BMW.

Jeff '79

12-30-2013, 8:37pm

Assuming you have good snow tires....

I drive a RWD 3 series BMW (E36) in the snow. It's quite possibly the best of all the vehicles I've ever owned. I drive circles around FWD and RWD cars all winter. It only got stuck when the snow was too deep for the front tires to climb over. Of course, AWD would have been beneficial that day, but that was 1 storm in the entire winter.

I read about half the thread, and I disagree with almost every single post. The solution to this issue is not about the drivetrain setup. RWD, FWD, AWD doesn't matter much. A car's ability to perform in the snow relies largely on it's weight distribution. I've driven FWD cars that can't get moving on a small incline or go around a turn over 30mph without understeering. I've driven RWD cars that prefer to travel backwards.
Again, the closer the car's weight distribution is to 50/50%, the better it will perform.

This is more a long ramble than a helpful post, but whatever. Get good snow tires and stick with the BMW.

:iagree:
My 525i with snow tires runs circles around the Kia Sorrento AWD, w/o snows, in the snow.

Dave

12-30-2013, 8:51pm

Thanks, Dave. That's a great answer but it complicates my decision because it sounds like RWD with winter tires is completely manageable. Thanks for the info. :seasix:

I've had a good number of vehicles over the years. My C5 with the Eagle M+S winter tires (EMTs designed for the Z C5) is the best non-4WD/AWD vehicle I have driven in the snow.

Your winters are probably like ours. The actual number of days where the roads are deeply covered with snow is just a handful. If it's crappy in the morning, the main roads are perfectly passable in the evening. So the concern becomes more one of performance in a couple inches or so, rather than the ability to get through 8-12 inches.

simpleman68

12-30-2013, 10:20pm

I read about half the thread, and I disagree with almost every single post. The solution to this issue is not about the drivetrain setup. RWD, FWD, AWD doesn't matter much. A car's ability to perform in the snow relies largely on it's weight distribution.........

Post #10 :dance: :D :shots:

Scott

JRD77VET

12-30-2013, 10:26pm

Our CTS 4 is insanely capable in the snow. Decent weight balance front to rear and enough weight to keep it planted at the corners.

Other than really deep snow it is far more capable than my F350 4X4
Scott

Post #10 :dance: :D :shots:

Scott

I know my '01 2500 LT 4WD Suburban is good in the snow. ( my '78 with a 400 small block and full time 4WD was the best ) But unlike some of the other 4WD yahoos, I take my time and actually slow down for corners and leave extra time for stopping. :seasix:

Oh, and if you fly past me and I see you in the ditch farther up the road, I will wave and beep my horn as I pass :seeya:

simpleman68

12-30-2013, 10:30pm

... But unlike some of the other 4WD yahoos, I take my time and actually slow down for corners and leave extra time for stopping. :seasix:

Oh, and if you fly past me and I see you in the ditch farther up the road, I will wave and beep my horn as I pass :seeya:

Yeah man :yesnod: I always tell my daughter that when I'm driving in bad weather. "Honey, you can have 10 wheel drive but it won't help you stop any faster and is useless on ice."
Scott

Fastguy

12-30-2013, 10:41pm

Our 328xi is AWD rolling Conti all seasons. It isn't as good as the FWD Acura on Blizzaks.
However, I just swapped on some Pirelli studded Carving tires that should make the BMW a beast. A lot depends on the platform.

John Wiz

12-30-2013, 10:49pm

I have some Kumho Ecsta all seasons on my Audi Quattro, and it is great in the snow, as long as it isn't deep enough to build up underneath. I have also driven a '95 Camaro Z28 in New Hampshire during the winter with nothing but all seasons on it. I never got stuck, although I did get hung up on deep snow getting out of a parking lot that I did have to dig out some snow from under the car to get out of the parking space (I got plowed in). I also had my '99 Trans Am in a blizzard on the summer performance tires, I also did not get stuck in the snow even though I had several steep hills to go up and get started on - I did take it fairly slow and careful. You can drive a RWD in the snow, but it is a real challenge and most people don't have the experience to do it. Both my Camaro and TA were manuals. I've seen plenty of 4WD in ditches, but in most cases it was drivers who were driving much too fast for the conditions - they thought 4WD made them unstoppable in any condition. Given my choice though, I'll take AWD any day.

Frizzle

12-30-2013, 11:31pm

Post #10 :dance: :D :shots:

Scott

How aggressive are your tires on the 350?

simpleman68

12-30-2013, 11:37pm

How aggressive are your tires on the 350?

Pretty average at best (Firestone TransForce)
Big problem is she is ass light big time. Reg cab and nothing in the bed.
I used to run Winters with a couple iron I beams that were ~800 lbs.
That extra weight made a huge difference.
Scott

09CTSV

12-31-2013, 7:02am

Assuming you have good snow tires....

I drive a RWD 3 series BMW (E36) in the snow. It's quite possibly the best of all the vehicles I've ever owned. I drive circles around FWD and RWD cars all winter. It only got stuck when the snow was too deep for the front tires to climb over. Of course, AWD would have been beneficial that day, but that was 1 storm in the entire winter.

I read about half the thread, and I disagree with almost every single post. The solution to this issue is not about the drivetrain setup. RWD, FWD, AWD doesn't matter much. A car's ability to perform in the snow relies largely on it's weight distribution. I've driven FWD cars that can't get moving on a small incline or go around a turn over 30mph without understeering. I've driven RWD cars that prefer to travel backwards.
Again, the closer the car's weight distribution is to 50/50%, the better it will perform.

This is more a long ramble than a helpful post, but whatever. Get good snow tires and stick with the BMW.

For the most part I believe most BMW's are a 50/50 weight distribution. The M3 and X5M I've had both were 50/50. Never tried the M3 in the snow, didn't have a spare set of rims and had three other vehicles to drive. As low as the M3 was to the ground, it might have made a pretty good snow plow in deep snow.

JRD77VET

12-31-2013, 7:11pm

Pretty average at best (Firestone TransForce)
Big problem is she is ass light big time. Reg cab and nothing in the bed.
I used to run Winters with a couple iron I beams that were ~800 lbs.
That extra weight made a huge difference.
Scott

I've never had any luck with firestone tires. They just seems slippery.

For your pickup, take a board ( 2x8 or 2x10 ) and put it behind the rear wheel tubs in the bed. Get bags of sand, place them in heavy duty trash bags and put them in that space. Now you have weight for traction and sand if you get stuck. :yesnod:

Ruffy

12-31-2013, 7:30pm

I have nine 8" blocks in the back of my pickup. Plenty of weight to keep the rear in check.

simpleman68

01-01-2014, 1:46am

I've never had any luck with firestone tires. They just seems slippery.

For your pickup, take a board ( 2x8 or 2x10 ) and put it behind the rear wheel tubs in the bed. Get bags of sand, place them in heavy duty trash bags and put them in that space. Now you have weight for traction and sand if you get stuck. :yesnod:

Yeah, the sandbag fix works well. A pain when you're moving Sheetrock and supplies that need to lay flat.

Been wanting to snag an old piece of flat iron to use but it's not like it is easily removable in the Spring. :lol:
Scott

RedLS1GTO

01-01-2014, 1:56am

I have driven just about every type of vehicle through the snow from Vettes on summer tires, front wheel drive imports, awd sedan, ... all the way to my big 4x4 diesel.

Give me 4WD/AWD any day of the week in the snow. Yea, they both stop the same, etc, but if you aren't the type that panics and stands on the brakes and you DO find yourself in a crappy situation... perhaps of someone else's doing... with 4 wheels spinning you can at minimum usually at least power yourself in the direction you want to go. Not always the case with either FWD or RWD which are likely to either go straight or not at all.

4wd has gotten me out of trouble on more than 1 occasion in my life... including just about 2 weeks ago in the snow/ice storm we had up here when a car came sliding through an intersection into my lane and I took evasive maneuvers into the median to miss him. No way I would have been able to make that move (and get out of the median) with a fwd/rwd car. The truck came out without a scratch.

mrvette

01-01-2014, 9:59am

This entire thread has ignored the elephant in the room.....for a bunch of supposed CAR people, not ONE mention of the elephant......

Can anyone ID the elephant....say the word???

:issues::lol::rofl:

Burro (He/Haw)

01-01-2014, 10:13am

Admiral Blue

01-01-2014, 10:43am

:rofl:

I don't know---traction control? Don't say that because I don't use it. Driver ability?

Admiral Blue

01-01-2014, 10:47am

Assuming you have good snow tires....

I drive a RWD 3 series BMW (E36) in the snow. It's quite possibly the best of all the vehicles I've ever owned. I drive circles around FWD and RWD cars all winter. It only got stuck when the snow was too deep for the front tires to climb over. Of course, AWD would have been beneficial that day, but that was 1 storm in the entire winter.

I read about half the thread, and I disagree with almost every single post. The solution to this issue is not about the drivetrain setup. RWD, FWD, AWD doesn't matter much. A car's ability to perform in the snow relies largely on it's weight distribution. I've driven FWD cars that can't get moving on a small incline or go around a turn over 30mph without understeering. I've driven RWD cars that prefer to travel backwards.
Again, the closer the car's weight distribution is to 50/50%, the better it will perform.

This is more a long ramble than a helpful post, but whatever. Get good snow tires and stick with the BMW.

Drew, thanks for the opinion, this is great. You an 09CTSV are right about the weight distribution. The 3 series have decent distribution and I believe the 335xi is very close to 50/50.

mrvette

01-01-2014, 10:50am

:rofl:

I don't know---traction control? Don't say that because I don't use it. Driver ability?

I prefer the term POSI traction.....90% of all the AWD vehicles do not have posi on either end.....only company to ever put posi in the front was Mutsobitchy, some years ago....

but AWD is a misnomer it's almost always just one in front and one in rear, no posi.....now traction control can help make up for that by applying brake to the spinning wheel on that axle, but I would rather have posi, as that seems to be a crappy solution, IMO.....

years ago, along the Potomac river some ramp was rather steep and this pickup/4 WD got stuck on the ramp, could not pull his boat out, one in front spinning, one in rear spinning......I on the other side of the dock and pulled mine out easy....why?? posi.....

:rofl::issues:

09CTSV

01-01-2014, 12:13pm

I prefer the term POSI traction.....90% of all the AWD vehicles do not have posi on either end.....only company to ever put posi in the front was Mutsobitchy, some years ago....

but AWD is a misnomer it's almost always just one in front and one in rear, no posi.....now traction control can help make up for that by applying brake to the spinning wheel on that axle, but I would rather have posi, as that seems to be a crappy solution, IMO.....

years ago, along the Potomac river some ramp was rather steep and this pickup/4 WD got stuck on the ramp, could not pull his boat out, one in front spinning, one in rear spinning......I on the other side of the dock and pulled mine out easy....why?? posi.....

:rofl::issues:

Posi is good but too old school now. Try an electronic locker with traction control and torque distribution to each wheel. Down in Spartanburg at the Performance Center for BMW, one of the obstacle courses puts the truck up with the opposite corners off the ground. The air tires just start to rotate and then the X-Drive puts power to the traction wheels and drives the vehicle off the obstacle. Pretty cool to see in person and go through it yourself.

polarbear

01-01-2014, 12:43pm

For winter driving and comparing the same car, do you think that a RWD car with winter tires could perform nearly as well or better than AWD using all season tires? :bigears:

These questions always come up from peeps that live in places that are billiard-table flat. If you lived on my hill, the only question you'd be asking is "studded tires or Blizzaks for my Subaru?"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rigebp7M__k/ToV6-K7q4PI/AAAAAAAAAIw/pPxRnLGgtX4/s1600/img_0769.jpg

Nemesis

01-01-2014, 2:56pm

Drew, thanks for the opinion, this is great. You an 09CTSV are right about the weight distribution. The 3 series have decent distribution and I believe the 335xi is very close to 50/50.

You're welcome. I get asked that question a lot, oddly.

My dad has a fairly new ('07 maybe?) 328xi. He felt it did really well with snow tires in a recent storm we had. I would guess it was around 5-7 inches up at my parents' house.

Fastguy

01-01-2014, 7:01pm

Just put new winter boots on the AWD 328. Pirelli Winter Carving.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/saltysearay/CAM00557_zpsccc3c620.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/saltysearay/CAM00558_zpsf9b3052f.jpg

Jeff '79

01-01-2014, 7:04pm

Fastguy

01-01-2014, 7:06pm

Outta my way bitches!

Jeff '79

01-01-2014, 7:08pm

Outta my way bitches!

How is stopping with the studs on?
I've never had 'em, prolly never will, but do tell.

simpleman68

01-01-2014, 7:27pm

Outta my way bitches!

Especially with what you folks got comin' at ya the next few days.
Be safe and watch the idiots George. :cert:

Those should be incredible in the packed snow and ice.
Scott

Fastguy

01-01-2014, 7:54pm

We are supposed to get wailed with snow in the next few days so we will see how they do.

JRD77VET

01-01-2014, 8:01pm

Yeah, the sandbag fix works well. A pain when you're moving Sheetrock and supplies that need to lay flat.

Been wanting to snag an old piece of flat iron to use but it's not like it is easily removable in the Spring. :lol:
Scott

I can drill and tap for lift hooks for fall installation and spring removal. :yesnod:

Work smart, not hard :seasix: