13-year-old carrying fake rifle killed

[onedef92]

13-year-old carrying fake rifle killed

Boy was carrying replica Ak-47 and fake hand gun, authorities say

UPDATED 5:16 AM EDT Oct 24, 2013

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m111/onedef92/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281.jpg

(CNN) —A sheriff's deputy mistakenly thought he saw a teen carrying an assault rifle on a California street this week and shot him dead, authorities said.

It turned out the 13-year-old boy was carrying two fake guns, a replica AK-47 and a fake hand gun, the Santa Rosa County Sheriff's office said.

The Tuesday shooting is being investigated, the sheriff's office said.

School officials in the northern California city of Santa Rosa identified the teen as Andy Lopez Cruz.

"The Santa Rosa City School District family is deeply saddened by the loss of Andy Lopez Cruz," a school system statement said. "This is a tragic event for family, schools and the community. His administrators and teachers will remember him as kind, intelligent and capable."

Two Sonoma County deputies spotted the boy holding what appeared to be an assault rifle Tuesday afternoon, the Santa Rosa County Sheriff's office said.

They pulled over "but maintained cover behind their open passenger door," the press release said.

They yelled at the teen to put the weapon down. He had his back to them and began turning around towards the officers, the statement said.

"One of the deputies described that as the subject was turning toward him the barrel of the assault rifle was rising up and turning in his direction. The deputy feared for his safety, the safety of his partner, and the safety of the community members in the area," the statement said.

A deputy shot the teen. The teen was handcuffed, and the officers called for an ambulance, the statement said. Deputies found the fake rifle on the ground near the boy. The bogus handgun was tucked in his waistband.

Cruz's classmates were crestfallen by the news, Lawrence Cook Middle School Assistant Principal Linsey Gannon told CNN affiliate KRON.

"He was a very popular student," Gannon told the affiliate. "He was a handsome young man with many friends and a lovely family. He will be missed."

Late Wednesday, a crowd gathered in the dirt field where the boy was shot, to hold a memorial that turned into a rally against police shootings, CNN affiliate KGO reported. In the crowd was Cruz's mother who said she was too grief-stricken to talk, KGO reported.

Family friend Gabriel Roque said she was outraged.

"He's was a 13-year-old boy who was no harm to anybody. This was not a grown man walking down the street with a gun," she told the affiliate. "He was a 13-year-old little boy, you could just tell him to put it down."

[simpleman68]

.....His administrators and teachers will remember him as kind, intelligent and capable ."


While it's a tragedy for any young teen to lost their life, I also wonder where the parents were with letting this young man carry a "pistol" in the waist-band of his pants and anything that resembles any kind of rifle.
And in feckin' LA?!

Most 13 year olds are near the size of adults as well. intelligent and capable indeed....

The article also doesn't mention what time of day or night the shooting happened.

Scott

[RedLS1GTO]

This sh*t is out of control.


I want to see this "replica AK-47".

[...Whitepower...]

This sh*t is out of control.


I want to see this "replica AK-47".

Look's real enough to me.

Bad parenting if the parents knew of and didn't take them away or bought the fake guns for him in my opinion. Like Scott said, it is LA which is pretty much the gang capital of the US.


http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/gun-300x279.jpg

[xXBUDXx]

This sh*t is out of control.


I want to see this "replica AK-47".

My first thought was airsoft, but I could be wrong.

[RedLS1GTO]

I also wonder where the parents were with letting this young man carry a "pistol" in the waist-band of his pants and anything that resembles any kind of rifle.

And in feckin' LA?!

I would be willing to bet $50 that the "rifle" he was carrying had a big dayglo orange tip on it. I haven't seen any pictures or even read the report but I would also be willing to bet that it was conveniently removed before anybody else showed up once the dumbass realized what he did.

Shoot first, figure out what the situation is later.


EDIT: Now I have seen a picture. Airsoft was my first guess as well. Of course you can't see the end of the barrel, but I stand by my comment. $50 says that the cop who shot him took off the orange tip.

[...Whitepower...]

BTW the story states the took cover behind the door of the car. That leads me to believe there is dash video coverage too. I want to see that to see if the shooting was warranted or just yet another bad shoot.

[simpleman68]

I would be willing to bet $50 that the "rifle" he was carrying had a big dayglo orange tip on it. I haven't seen an y pictures or even read the report but I would also be willing to bet that it was conveniently removed before anybody else showed up once the dumbass realized what he did.

Shoot first, figure out what the situation is later.

No doubt the officers may have reacted like Barney Fife on this one.

On the other hand, that "toy" looks pretty damn real to me. In addition, why would a 13 year old (near adult size) be out playing with 2 guns in LA?

I'd still like to know what time this occurred. Those pics of the "rifle" look like night shots.

Scott

[...Whitepower...]

I would be willing to bet $50 that the "rifle" he was carrying had a big dayglo orange tip on it. I haven't seen any pictures or even read the report but I would also be willing to bet that it was conveniently removed before anybody else showed up once the dumbass realized what he did.

Shoot first, figure out what the situation is later.


EDIT: Now I have seen a picture. Of course you can't see the end of the barrel, but I stand by my comment. $50 says that the cop who shot him took off the orange tip.

Update on the shooting death of Andy Lopez Cruz - The Global Dispatch (http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/update-on-the-shooting-death-of-andy-lopez-cruz-16585/)

Recovered at the scene were a replica AK-47 assault style rifle, and a replica of a handgun. The rifle was located on the ground next to the subject. The handgun was located concealed in the waistband of the subject. The rifle had a brown stock and fore grip, and a dark colored plastic body. It did not have the traditionally orange tip of a replica firearm. The handgun was clear plastic and did have an orange tip at the end of the barrel.

[onedef92]

This sh*t is out of control.


I want to see this "replica AK-47".

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m111/onedef92/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281.jpg

In a split-second, life-or-death situation, plus distance and depth perception, I can see how the officer thought the rifle was real and not a fake.

[DropTheTop]

:sadangel: Truly sad, but hopefully lessons can be learned from this.
1.) Maybe you don't have to buy your kid everything they want.
2.) If you do buy them realistic replica weapons, don't let them saunter down the street with them outside of a sealed case.
3.) Or hey, how about not letting them leave the house with them at all, unless you're taking them to a recreation area designed for shooting those things. Whether they're paintball, pellet, airsoft, etc... Carrying openly down the street is just not the correct venue in this day and age.

My Nephew has a friend that's 13. He wears a size 15+ shoe, stands over 6' tall and weighs over 200 lbs. Let's hope he never walks down the street here in NJ with his airsoft rifle swinging in the wind!

[RedLS1GTO]

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m111/onedef92/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281.jpg

I'll take my $50 now.


It did not have the traditionally orange tip of a replica firearm.

How convenient. Look at it. The entire forward few inches of that barrel is broken off, including the front sights. Even the "cleaning rod" is broken off of it. If someone wanted to remove the orange tip to make the gun look more "realistic" they sure as hell aren't taking the entire barrel and sights off of it. That was done in a hurry. I wonder why. Hmmmm...

[DropTheTop]

^ Yeah, cause no one can paint an orange tip on their REAL gun to fake the police out, right? Instead of looking for an excuse, how about not enabling the kid in the first place?

[...Whitepower...]

^ Yeah, cause no one can paint an orange tip on their REAL gun to fake the police out, right? Instead of looking for an excuse, how about not enabling the kid in the first place?

:iagree:


We live in a different day and age than when we were kids with all the school shootings etc. Parents have to use common sense. Buying a fake replica gun and leaving it in the kids possession might not be the best move.

[RedLS1GTO]

^ Yeah, cause no one can paint an orange tip on their REAL gun to fake the police out, right? Instead of looking for an excuse, how about not enabling the kid in the first place?

What the kid did was stupid. I am not saying otherwise. Carrying anything even remotely resembling a gun through LA is a dumbass idea.

That doesn't make what the police did right. Where were the wounds on the kid? Did they shoot him in the chest or from the side/back? They said they warned him and told him to drop the gun... any witnesses to that? They said he turned and raised the barrel. I know that is exactly what I would say if I just killed somebody, regardless of how it really happened. The last thing the LAPD wants is for it to look like their officers were negligent in a killing of a kid. We have all seen how that turns out.

There is absolutely ZERO doubt after looking at that picture that someone broke the end of it off. They said he "fell on the gun" when they shot him. Funny, that isn't a drop of blood anywhere near it in the picture of it in the field. Seems a little odd that a kid shot multiple times wouldn't be bleeding, don't you think? If you believed that you were righteous in your actions, why cover it up?

The kid was stupid, the parents were stupid if they knew, and in typical fashion, the police shot first and assessed the situation later. All of that added together equals 1 dead kid who now has no chance to offer his version of what happened.

[RED-85-Z51]

Split second decision...Id have put his ass down too. Here locally a guy was gunned down by police in front of his home...he was rifling through his moms car at 2am in his driveway..looking for a smoke...neighbor called police because it looked suspicious. Cops rolled up, got out, and asked him to step out and away..put his hands up...he got out, then reached into the car and grabbed something and held it up (ended up being keys), but they put 15 rounds in his direction. They were just absolved of any wrong doing last week.

In this case...it was EASILY mistaken for a real gun, because it looks like a real gun..even if it had an orange tip on it, if someone pointed it at you, you would think it was a real gun.

[RED-85-Z51]

What the kid did was stupid. I am not saying otherwise. Carrying anything even remotely resembling a gun through LA is a dumbass idea.

That doesn't make what the police did right. Where were the wounds on the kid? Did they shoot him in the chest or from the side/back?

There is absolutely ZERO doubt after looking at that picture that someone broke the end of it off. If you believed that you were righteous in your actions, why cover it up?

The kid was stupid, the parents were stupid if they knew, and in typical fashion, the police shot first and assessed the situation later.

Int it possible..the kid cut off the end of the barrel himself?

Ive seen people spray paint fake guns black to resemble real guns..and at a glance, its not noticeable.

Put it this way...you are shopping in the mall, and you are with your family. Some guy walks up and pulls an AK out of his coat..raises it and points it at your family...you are carrying..are you going to react..or think on it?

[RED-85-Z51]

Its just like, if you bag up powdered sugar and sell it as cocaine...

The charges will reflect sale of narcotics...even if it wasnt real, IF YOU TELL SOMEONE YOU ARE SELLING THEM COKE...it doesnt matter whats in the bag...

[...Whitepower...]

That doesn't make what the police did right. Where were the wounds on the kid? Did they shoot him in the chest or from the side/back? They said they warned him and told him to drop the gun... any witnesses to that? They said he turned and raised the barrel. I know that is exactly what I would say if I just killed somebody, regardless of how it really happened. The last thing the LAPD wants is for it to look like their officers were negligent in a killing of a kid. We have all seen how that turns out..

Truth.. http://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/off-topic/58078-im-rich-biotch.html

[RedLS1GTO]

Int it possible..the kid cut off the end of the barrel himself?

Ive seen people spray paint fake guns black to resemble real guns..and at a glance, its not noticeable.

Put it this way...you are shopping in the mall, and you are with your family. Some guy walks up and pulls an AK out of his coat..raises it and points it at your family...you are carrying..are you going to react..or think on it?

Exactly. People paint them. They don't break the whole damn barrel off to get rid of the orange. I have seen a LOT of airsoft guns in my life and I have never seen somebody cut off a barrel to get rid of the orange. Even if he did, why cut off an additional 3-4 inches? If in a hurry, you grabbed it and snapped it off, that joint is probably where it would break. Is it possible that the kid did it? Yea, of course it is, but I'd say pretty unlikely.

If someone points it at me? Yea, they're going down. Again... I am not saying anything to the contrary. If he pointed it at the police, orange tip or not, they did the right thing. There is just too much of this story that suggests that they shot well before that point. If it is shown to be that he turned and pointed at them, I will gladly change my opinion to match the facts. Unfortunately it seems like the only people who will ever really know are those who pulled the trigger.

[simpleman68]

Truth.. http://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/off-topic/58078-im-rich-biotch.html

Agreed

[...Whitepower...]

Agreed

Best part about that one is the contradictions of the police report when compared to the home owners security cam footage.

[simpleman68]

Best part about that one is the contradictions of the police report when compared to the home owners security cam footage.

With those jokers it often comes down to, "are ya gonna believe me or your own eyes"? :lol:

Scott

[Kerrmudgeon]

Two things come to mind. First what the hell is that kid thinking wandering down the road with those real looking weapons. (no red barrel tips that are required to distinguish them as toys), and two, the shooter cop is a bit of a wuss to fire until he knows they are real weapons. He should have taken cover and yelled at the kid to drop them, and get on his knees before opening fire. How Stupid on both parts. :sadangel:

[onedef92]

Two things come to mind. First what the hell is that kid thinking wandering down the road with those real looking weapons. (no red barrel tips that are required to distinguish them as toys), and two, the shooter cop is a bit of a wuss to fire until he knows they are real weapons. He should have taken cover and yelled at the kid to drop them, and get on his knees before opening fire. How Stupid on both parts. :sadangel:

The report stated the officers were positioned behind the doors of their vehicles per training doctrine. But couldn't a standard 7.62×39 mm. AK-47 round easily pierce a car door? Do police and law enforcement cruisers have reinforced door panels? :confused5:

[ZipZap]

And in feckin' LA?!



Your geography skillz are lacking...

[StaticCling]

Your geography skillz are lacking...

:iagree:

Santa Rosa is NORCAL. North of San Francisco even.

[Kerrmudgeon]

The report stated the officers were positioned behind the doors of their vehicles per training doctrine. But couldn't a standard 7.62×39 mm. AK-47 round easily pierce a car door? Do police and law enforcement cruisers have reinforced door panels? :confused5:

No idea Jules, gun junkies will answer that for sure I assume, but up here toy guns HAVE to have those red ends on the barrels to distinguish them. And BTW, what kind of parents let their kid go for a stroll in public looking like a mass murderer? :toetap:

[simpleman68]

Your geography skillz are lacking...

Fook me... Must have picked up on the source. Thought I read LA in there somewheres...:leaving:
Scott

[Aerovette]

I remember the good old days as a kid playing cops and robbers and our guns didn't need to have orange tips and we never could have ever imagined getting actually shot by anyone.

Then again, I had reasonably strict parents that knew where I was and what I was doing 95% of the time until I was about 17 when it dropped to about 50% of the time. They were both present and involved in my upbringing and I knew what kind of people I should and shouldn't hang out with thanks to them.

Parenting - invaluable.

[onedef92]

I remember the good old days as a kid playing cops and robbers and our guns didn't need to have orange tips and we never could have ever imagined getting actually shot by anyone.

Then again, I had reasonably strict parents that knew where I was and what I was doing 95% of the time until I was about 17 when it dropped to about 50% of the time. They were both present and involved in my upbringing and I knew what kind of people I should and shouldn't hang out with thanks to them.

Parenting - invaluable.

When I was 16 and 17 we actually bought rifles and shotguns to high school. Albeit they were left on the rear window gun racks of the pickup-trucks and 4x4's many students drove, they were loaded. We never had one gun-related incident.

[RedLS1GTO]

The report stated the officers were positioned behind the doors of their vehicles per training doctrine. But couldn't a standard 7.62×39 mm. AK-47 round easily pierce a car door? Do police and law enforcement cruisers have reinforced door panels? :confused5:

No idea Jules, gun junkies will answer that for sure...

I've shot off the shelf 7.62 from an El Cheapo AK through 3/8" steel plate numerous times. The short answer is yes. A 7.62x39 is going to go through a sheetmetal door like it isn't even there.

Fook me... Must have picked up on the source. Thought I read LA in there somewheres...:leaving:
Scott

:slap:

[RedLS1GTO]

When I was 16 and 17 we actually bought rifles and shotguns to high school. Albeit they were left on the rear window gun racks of the pickup-trucks and 4x4's many students drove, they were loaded. We never had one gun-related incident.

Yup. It wasn't that long ago that I carried a 12ga through the front doors of my school and into the principal's office at lunch time. He wanted to see my new gun. :shrug:


At any given time during hunting season I bet there were 100 guns in our school parking lot. ... and we had a grand total of about 75 students who drove. :leaving:

According to the idiot logic of some people, all of those evil guns should have turned our hallways into rivers of blood on a regular basis. Funny, we never had any problems.

[mrvette]

Yup. It wasn't that long ago that I carried a 12ga through the front doors of my school and into the principal's office at lunch time.

He wanted to see my new gun. :shrug:


At any given time during hunting season I bet there were 100 guns in our school parking lot. ... and we had a grand total of about 75 students who drove. :leaving:

Yeh, 50 years ago I/others did the same at our Maryland HS....just outside Wash DC.....try THAT today, and they call out the National guard.....freeking communist/liberals.....

:issues:

[RedLS1GTO]

As for the original story, the more I see the picture, the more it pisses me off. The barrel of that "gun" was very VERY clearly broken off in a manner consistent with a hurried attempt to get rid of the bright orange end. No way that someone trying to make a toy look "more realistic" is going to break off half of the barrel to do so. No f**king way.

Regardless of the stupidity of the kid or the parents, these shoot first mentality cops are covering for their f**k up and I have absolutely no doubt that they will get away with it.

[onedef92]

As for the original story, the more I see the picture, the more it pisses me off. The barrel of that "gun" was very VERY clearly broken off in a manner consistent with a hurried attempt to get rid of the bright orange end. No way that someone trying to make a toy look "more realistic" is going to break off half of the barrel to do so. No f**king way.

Regardless of the stupidity of the kid or the parents, these shoot first mentality cops are covering for their f**k up and I have absolutely no doubt that they will get away with it.

It's just like the storyline of the movie Copland starring Robert DeNiro and Sly Stallone.

[RED-85-Z51]

Yall keep assuming that the thing had an orange tip...

This is available on amazon, readily...and Ive seen them for 30 bucks new in the box @ the local flea markets...

http://www.davydean.com/airsoftguns/ps829236.jpg

[RED-85-Z51]

And here is a real one.. Tell me at even 20 feet, if you could tell one apart if it was being raised in your direction by an unknown gunman?

http://www.armedforces-int.com/upload/image_files/corporate_policy/images/projects/18/ak-47.jpg

[DropTheTop]

^ If that cop had waited until he fully spinned around, and was able to take a still shot of a moving barrel - then study the picture to see if it indeed had a full length barrel - then decide on whether the weapon was real or not - it may have been too late. For him or others for that matter.

[RED-85-Z51]

Also, if I take a Reak AK...and cut the end of the barrel off..is it suddenly rendered useless? Im sure it has an effect on the gas system...but...is it rendered non functioinal?

[onedef92]

^ If that cop had waited until he fully spinned around, and was able to take a still shot of a moving barrel - then study the picture to see if it indeed had a full length barrel - then decide on whether the weapon was real or not - it may have been too late. For him or others for that matter.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/TerminatorTV/l_d27ef71ea5162bfa9124a5c06ab2f2e6.jpg

True. We are talking wicked, sick, rapid threat-assessment/response capability like a T-Series Cyborg by Cyberdyne Systems.

[onedef92]

That battery-powered rifle. What size/type rechargeable batteries? Does it fire plastic pellets?

[RedLS1GTO]

Yall keep assuming that the thing had an orange tip...

...and you keep assuming that the cops that just shot a kid with a toy gun are telling the truth that he turned and pointed it at them.

We could play this game all day.


The color of the barrel is completely irrelevant other than the fact that it is broken off in a manner which would appear to show that it was done in a hurry as opposed to in a manner to make the toy look more realistic.

Do you really believe that a kid with a toy gun would ignore orders from police officers with guns drawn, telling him that they will shoot him? Do you think that not only would he ignore those orders... but that he would instead turn around and point a FAKE gun at the people who he knows have REAL guns pointed at him and are warning him that they will shoot??

That is exactly what these officers are claiming happened here. Does that chain of events really make logical sense to you?

[ZipZap]

That battery-powered rifle. What size/type rechargeable batteries? Does it fire plastic pellets?

Airsoft

[DropTheTop]

You mean the one that ships with an orange tip everywhere you buy it? Don't mix up bad advertising with federal law. :slap:

Seriously? Even if it comes attached, do you really believe all the kids leave it there?

Why can't some people put all ASSumptions aside, and try to put themselves in the shoes of the officer? Do you really think he set out to shoot a fecking kid that day?!?

Fact: Parents are buying their children realistic weapons complete with faux wood, mechanical features and dimensional accuracy of the real deal.

It's ridiculous to think cops and/or bystanders should know the difference at a fleeting glance.

This wasn't a kid laughing and pointing his hand shaped as a gun, wearing a freaking neon green mitten for cripssake. :slap:

[RedLS1GTO]

Why can't some people put all ASSumptions aside, and try to put themselves in the shoes of the officer? Do you really think he set out to shoot a fecking kid that day?!?


Do I think he did it on purpose or had ill intent in any way, shape, or form? Absolutely not.

Do I think that there is a huge possibility that he f**ked up in a serious way and a kid is dead as a direct result? Yea. I do.


I have been in the shoes of the officer. I have been in places where it was assumed that people wanted to kill me and in many cases could easily have the capability to do so in the form of a gun. It is your DUTY to make sure that you have all of the necessary information... or at least as much as possible... before you take a life.

If what they say is true. If they warned him multiple times and rather than dropping it, he turned and pointed it at them, then yea, they acted appropriately. Anybody in their position would reasonably be expected to do the same thing. On the other hand, if they simply saw someone carrying a "gun", got jumpy, and shot before knowing the full situation, than they are very much responsible for the death of a kid.

Unfortunately we will most likely never know which is the case.

[Joecooool]

I feel bad for the cop.

[Loco Vette]

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m111/onedef92/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281.jpg


There is absolutely ZERO doubt after looking at that picture that someone broke the end of it off. They said he "fell on the gun" when they shot him. Funny, that isn't a drop of blood anywhere near it in the picture of it in the field. Seems a little odd that a kid shot multiple times wouldn't be bleeding, don't you think? If you believed that you were righteous in your actions, why cover it up?

Looks to me like the front sight is simply masked by the shoulder of the guy holding it? :confused5:

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc125/LocoVette/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281zoom_zpsaca62f82.jpg

[RedLS1GTO]

Looks to me like the front sight is simply masked by the shoulder of the guy holding it? :confused5:

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc125/LocoVette/Officer-shoots-13-year-old-jpg_zpsbbf5b281zoom_zpsaca62f82.jpg

That's the real one. :leaving:

The one in his other hand is the one missing the front section of the barrel...



Again, I don't think anybody would deny that the arisoft guns look "real". I also don't think that anybody would ever argue that if he pointed it at them, orange tip or not, that they were justified in shooting. The only question I have is where did the barrel go? The only answer that I can come back to is that someone broke it off. The place that it is broken is not where it would be broken if the intent was to make it look more "cool" or more "real". That then leads to the question that if you were righteous in your actions (which would be the case if their story was true) why cover it up?

Where is the "pistol"? Does it still have the orange on it?

As I said before, maybe it happened just like they say it did. It just seems really odd to me that a kid with a fake gun would react in the way they claim that he did...

[DropTheTop]

Do I think he did it on purpose or had ill intent in any way, shape, or form? Absolutely not.

Do I think that there is a huge possibility that he f**ked up in a serious way and a kid is dead as a direct result? Yea. I do.

Well I happen to believe the parents f**ked up, which later enabled the kid to f**k up, which unfortunately resulted in the worst possible penalty that could be paid. I'm saddened the boy may not have received the proper training, discipline and/or information to truly be in a position of responsible ownership.

Moreover I'm sorry those cops had to be put in that situation, which will likely haunt them to their grave, forever to be scrutinized and judged by people who think the kid did nothing wrong.

Fact: The kid did at the VERY least, one thing wrong.

By my count, he did five things wrong.

[RED-85-Z51]

Also...onedef...missed a great opportunity with the thread title..."I didnt even have to use my AK"

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18j2wobjmswt9jpg/original.jpg

[RED-85-Z51]

fwiw, this day and age, if you see ANYONE walkign down the street with an AK-47...you MUST assume they are a renegade lone gunman looking to kill people, its all too common now for this to be the case...it also remains that...anyone walking down the street with an AK-47 isnt walking his dog, or going to get some milk...nor just out for a stroll. This is a person up to no good, and they should be treated as such...every single time.

You never know when a 13 year old with what looks like a toy..turns into this..

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/zz0-6jakwUc/maxresdefault.jpg

[DropTheTop]

^ C'mon, you know he has rules about titles for stories like this.

[MrPeabody]

fwiw, this day and age, if you see ANYONE walkign down the street with an AK-47...you MUST assume they are a renegade lone gunman looking to kill people, its all too common now for this to be the case...it also remains that...anyone walking down the street with an AK-47 isnt walking his dog, or going to get some milk...nor just out for a stroll. This is a person up to no good, and they should be treated as such...every single time.

You never know when a 13 year old with what looks like a toy..turns into this..

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/zz0-6jakwUc/maxresdefault.jpg

Unless they're part of the Open Carry movement at a Starbucks.:leaving:

[RedLS1GTO]

Funny... I'll have to check again, but last I looked, the simple act of carrying a rifle wasn't grounds for an officer to shoot you dead. I guess I missed that change somewhere. :shrug:

It's very simple. If he ignored multiple warnings and pointed it at them as they claim, they were justified.

If he didn't, they MURDERED a kid.

You believe whichever you want to believe. It's sad either way, but I hope for the officers' sake, it was the first. Unfortunately we will most likely never know which it was.



If the assumption is that every person with a gun is automatically on a mission to kill as many people as possible, I guess the grand plan is actually working. :(

[DropTheTop]

fwiw, this day and age, if you see ANYONE walkign down the street with an AK-47...you MUST assume they are a renegade lone gunman looking to kill people, its all too common now for this to be the case...it also remains that...anyone walking down the street with an AK-47 isnt walking his dog, or going to get some milk...nor just out for a stroll. This is a person up to no good, and they should be treated as such...every single time.

You never know when a 13 year old with what looks like a toy..turns into this..

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/zz0-6jakwUc/maxresdefault.jpg

Exactly.

And RedLS1GTO, while you're going through all the "ifs" in your head, try this one: What if the weapon was real and the kid spun around and had time to blip a few people off BEFORE the cop shot him? Is there an acceptable time delay for the cop to visually inspect for an orange tip, and an acceptable headcount while he delays in shooting? :confused5:

[RedLS1GTO]

Exactly.

And RedLS1GTO, while you're going through all the "ifs" in your head, try this one: What if the weapon was real and the kid spun around and had time to blip a few people off BEFORE the cop shot him? Is there an acceptable time delay for the cop to visually inspect for an orange tip, and an acceptable headcount while he delays in shooting? :confused5:

Seriously, what part of this is not registering?

If he turned and raised the gun, they were justified. I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. I was also very clear in saying that if that did infact happen, the color of the tip was completely irrelevant. Had time to spin around and "blip a few people"?? Seriously, WTF does that even mean? Have you ever actually shot an AK? You don't just do a quick spin and rattle off a dozen rounds. It sounds like you have watched WAY too many movies with quick draw bad guys. That's not quite how it works in the real world.

There were 2 of them, in position with guns aimed. Not exactly hard to put him down if he actually moved in a threatening manner or was actually trying to get a shot off.

[NCC-1701]

I would be willing to bet $50 that the "rifle" he was carrying had a big dayglo orange tip on it. I haven't seen any pictures or even read the report but I would also be willing to bet that it was conveniently removed before anybody else showed up once the dumbass realized what he did.

Shoot first, figure out what the situation is later.


EDIT: Now I have seen a picture. Airsoft was my first guess as well. Of course you can't see the end of the barrel, but I stand by my comment. $50 says that the cop who shot him took off the orange tip.

In your mind why do you say that are you inferring that the cop is a piece of shit liar. Go view statistics on juvenile who commit homicide crimes you will be surprised. I bet this great boy was going to rob someone or a store. I'll take my assumptions.

[RedLS1GTO]

In your mind why do you say that are you inferring that the cop is a piece of shit liar. Go view statistics on juvenile who commit homicide crimes you will be surprised. I bet this great boy was going to rob someone or a store. I'll take my assumptions.

I never said they were wrong or that they were "piece of shit liars". What I said is that there is some evidence pointing to that as a possibility (and there is). The gun barrel missing is 1 of those pieces of evidence pointing to that as a possibility. It is somewhat amusing that what I said before I even saw the picture... that it had a tip that was removed.. was absolutely true. Maybe there is an explanation for it that supports their story, maybe not. What I also said is that there is not enough evidence based on the FACTS that have been released to make a decision either way. Maybe they are liars who f**ked up and killed an innocent kid. Maybe what they say is completely true, in which case they were 100% justified. There is absolutely ZERO way that you can make that judgement with any certainty either way based on what has been released.



But hey, it's the internet. Who the hell am I to care about facts before making a judgement on a subject.

F**k 'em. The little punk deserved to die. Too bad they didn't shoot 5 of his thug buddies at the same time. That better?

[DropTheTop]

Seriously, what part of this is not registering?

If he turned and raised the gun, they were justified. I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. I was also very clear in saying that if that did infact happen, the color of the tip was completely irrelevant. Had time to spin around and "blip a few people"?? Seriously, WTF does that even mean? Have you ever actually shot an AK? You don't just do a quick spin and rattle off a dozen rounds. It sounds like you have watched WAY too many movies with quick draw bad guys. That's not quite how it works in the real world.

There were 2 of them, in position with guns aimed. Not exactly hard to put him down if he actually moved in a threatening manner or was actually trying to get a shot off.

Don't worry about what I said. I can tell you're getting aggravated if you find the need to nitpick my verbiage versus entertaining a different point of view.

Carry on wayward son.

[RedLS1GTO]

Don't worry about what I said. I can tell you're getting aggravated if you find the need to nitpick my verbiage versus entertaining a different point of view.

Carry on wayward son.

My comment had nothing to do with verbiage. It was that the "what if" wasn't at all realistic. Someone doesn't make a quick 180 turn, rattle off a bunch of rounds with an AK, and take out a "few" people before 2 trained police officers with guns already drawn and aimed can take him down.

If he makes an aggressive or threatening move, you shoot. Apparently they thought he did. Like I said before, I hope for their sake that their account is what actually happened and you can justify it to yourself that the kid brought it upon himself. It is bad enough to have to live with the fact that you killed an unarmed 13 year old. If you know that it happened because you f**ked up, well... good luck with those demons.

[DropTheTop]

They didn't kill an unarmed kid.

They fatally wounded a person of perceived threat who was open carrying a rifle and refused instructions to drop said rifle.

They did their job, whereas the parents did not.

[RedLS1GTO]

They fatally wounded a person of perceived threat who was open carrying a rifle and refused instructions to drop said rifle.

They did their job, whereas the parents did not.

Is there ANY proof of this whatsoever beyond the story of the officers who actually did the shooting? If so, I haven't seen it. If your previous scenario of him shooting a "few people" was possible, there had to be somebody else around to see what happened... right? How do you know that he wasn't leaning to set the "gun" on the ground, just like they supposedly ordered him to do? How do you know that the parents did not tell him to obey police officers? How do you know that the parents didn't tell him not to leave the house with it? How do you know ANYTHING that you are claiming to be true? In the absence of facts, you are making a hell of a lot of assumptions in order to come to your conclusions.

Your entire argument is based on thinking that a kid with a toy gun knowingly and willfully not only obeyed the orders of the police but also decided to turn and point it at them. Sorry. I don't buy it just because the guys with everything to lose say that's what happened. If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, go for it... because police officers are NEVER too quick on the trigger and would NEVER lie to cover up a mistake in judgement that led to the death of a 13 year old.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1325334.1366749490!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/usa-california.jpg

[Dan Dlabay]

I guess it's just a sign of the screwed up world we live in now. When I was growing up in the 60's we played with toy guns a lot. I remember riding with a friend in his dad's pickup and he had loaded rifles on a rack in the back window. For Christmas when I was 12 I got a 22 cal. rifle as a present.:cert:

[Aerovette]

I may not be a kid, but when I was, I STILL knew a way to NOT get shot by the police.

DO WHAT THEY SAY !! Maybe it doesn't work EVERY time, but I would rather take my chances following orders than not following them.

[RED-85-Z51]

There's no indication that the kid didn't follow orders.

People who lay down their weapons and put their hands behind their heads...generally dont get riddled with holes....

People who turn around and make even the slightest upward movment of their weapon...get shot.

http://www.gifcrap.com/g2data/albums/Misc/Slow%20motion%20gun%20firing.gif


Ive known enough cops personally, and seen enough of these dash cam cop shows to know that its usually the person oposite the cops that takes the move of aggression before the cops start firing.

Keep in mind..you dont have to point a gun at a cop ot get killed, you need only brandish something that looks like a gun, and lift it...this is not news, nor something new..people know this.

Any kid that walks down the street with an AK47 replica..this day and age..is asking to get lit up.

[RED-85-Z51]

If you were at a Marathon..and some guy wals up to the crowd, wearing a hoody, shades..and puts a backpack down..and casually walks away...would you not assume that he has planted a bomb? Why would you assume that? Because thats how it has been done in the past...you have to assume that is whats going on..common sense should tell you that...and such a person can expect to be shot/tackled/beaten.

If a cop sees a kid walking down the street with an AK-47 (not just any gun...but a fkin AK), he does not see a man, or a boy..or a terrorist..he sees a potential killer with one of the most deadly rifles available...and he needs to be prepared to make the tough call if the person makes even the slightest move of aggression.

[99 pewtercoupe]

There are lot of unanswered questions about this event. A lot of additional info is going to come out as time goes on. My gut reaction is that if a cop sees a young adult walking down the street with what looks like a firearm, he/she is going to go to worst case scenario. If he doesn't, who is to blame if the shooter takes out innocent passers by?

It is too easy to arm chair quarterback this situation and render judgement without knowing all the details. I will reserve my opinion until more info that will ultimately come out is known. For now, I will give the officers the benefit of the doubt but if they screwed up and even more importantly tried to cover it up in some way, then they need to be held responsible

[Aerovette]

Bottom line, it was a stupid move by a stupid kid. Stupid is not a reason to die, but sometimes if what you do is stupid enough, that is the final outcome.

Tell me a "good" reason for him to have those weapons (real or fake) carried like that.

Was he playing with friends?...or was he trying to be intimidating? Apparently he was in fact intimidating...just to the wrong audience.

How is this different than Trayvon? He was a perceived threat. Vigilantes get a pass and cops don't?

Both were stupid kids that did something stupid and paid the ultimate price for poor decision making.

[RED-85-Z51]

Back when I was in HS...we had this thing that seniors signed up for and participated in called Senior Assassin Week. You had an airsoft pistol, BBs, and you would be assigned a target, and you would be assigned as a target...and it worked its way down by elimination to a champion....Rules were simple, no battery powered stuff...no rifles, no church kills, no work kills, no school kills....parking lot, in traffic, at the store...anywhere else was fair game....you just had to take video of it with your phone or camera....

That shit....would result in dozens of students being expelled and arrested..then sent to GITMO these days....

Students had airsoft pistols in their cars, backpacks...lol

[NCC-1701]

I never said they were wrong or that they were "piece of shit liars". What I said is that there is some evidence pointing to that as a possibility (and there is). The gun barrel missing is 1 of those pieces of evidence pointing to that as a possibility. It is somewhat amusing that what I said before I even saw the picture... that it had a tip that was removed.. was absolutely true. Maybe there is an explanation for it that supports their story, maybe not. What I also said is that there is not enough evidence based on the FACTS that have been released to make a decision either way. Maybe they are liars who f**ked up and killed an innocent kid. Maybe what they say is completely true, in which case they were 100% justified. There is absolutely ZERO way that you can make that judgement with any certainty either way based on what has been released.




F**k 'em. The little punk deserved to die. Too bad they didn't shoot 5 of his thug buddies at the same time. That better?
But hey, it's the internet. Who the hell am I to care about facts before making a judgement on a subject.




Well that is a better explanation than your first statement because it did not sound like this previously. I go by facts and photos most times when we all make assumptions we are monday morning quarterbacking and looking at the cynical side of things. Police work is a difficult job and I bet the police officer does not feel good at all about killing that juvenile.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Argue all day long, but this is a tragedy of the highest order. :sadangel:

[island14]

I guess it's just a sign of the screwed up world we live in now. When I was growing up in the 60's we played with toy guns a lot. I remember riding with a friend in his dad's pickup and he had loaded rifles on a rack in the back window. For Christmas when I was 12 I got a 22 cal. rifle as a present.:cert:


:iagree:


Argue all day long, but this is a tragedy of the highest order. :sadangel:

:iagree:

I'm not even going to point fingers and try to lay the blame anywhere without all the facts..

It is just sad that it happened... :yesnod:

In today's times, the cops are scared for their own lives with all the insanity out there these days, and a lot of people are scared of too fast on the trigger cops.

You can bet the cop who shot this kid is sad and heart broken right now..

Prayers for the family of the loss of their child.

:sadangel:

[RedLS1GTO]

If you were at a Marathon..and some guy wals up to the crowd, wearing a hoody, shades..and puts a backpack down..and casually walks away...would you not assume that he has planted a bomb?

So if a cop sees a guy in a hoodie set down a backpack, does that mean he should open fire? How about if I am carrying and I see a guy set a backpack down in a mall? I mean... he could have just planted a bomb, right?

How is this different than Trayvon? He was a perceived threat. Vigilantes get a pass and cops don't?

:skep: Uhhhhhh.... You mean other than the simple fact this kid didn't attack the officer and start smashing his head into the ground? I don't think there would be much argument that they were justified in their shooting.

If you want to make the comparison, this would be the same as if Zimmerman walked up, told the kid to stop walking, and then shot him. You can think they are right or wrong, but either way this is nowhere even remotely close to the same as shooting someone who was beating the shit out of you.

[RedLS1GTO]

Well that is a better explanation than your first statement because it did not sound like this previously. I go by facts and photos most times when we all make assumptions we are monday morning quarterbacking and looking at the cynical side of things. Police work is a difficult job and I bet the police officer does not feel good at all about killing that juvenile.

Don't get me wrong... if I had to GUESS which was true, right now I would bet that their story isn't exactly the way it happened. It just doesn't pass the logic test that a kid would do what they said he did and the barrel of his "gun" missing is still a strange factor that nobody seems to really care about.

My theory? The police were full of adrenaline seeing someone walking down the street with a "gun". What they said were "multiple warnings" was in reality about .3 seconds of them yelling something indistinguishable. The kid had absolutely no idea what was going on, probably turned around like anybody would to see what the hell was making all of the noise behind him, and they opened fire. When he was on the ground, they saw what really happened, said "oh shit" and broke the barrel off of the gun because it was the single most instantly damning piece of evidence that they screwed up.

What it comes down to is that a 13 year old kid with a fake gun willfully and blatantly ignoring "multiple warnings" from police with guns drawn and then turning around and pointing the gun at them just makes absolutely no sense. Maybe it really did happen that way... but we will never know.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

When I was growing up in the 60's we played with toy guns a lot.
We did too, we called it playing War. Just a bunch of neighborhood kids running around with toy guns.

My dad had acquired a Nazi flag somehow when he was in the Army. I grabbed it one day and planned on using it during one of our War games. Holy hell was he pissed. "Jesus Christ bring that damn thing back here, you're gonna get shot waving that thing around."

[jaxgator]

What a very unfortunate tragedy for all involved. :sadangel:

Also...onedef...missed a great opportunity with the thread title..."I didnt even have to use my AK"

^ C'mon, you know he has rules about titles for stories like this.

:iagree: Unlike some, Julian has class.

[Joecooool]

I never said they were wrong or that they were "piece of shit liars". What I said is that there is some evidence pointing to that as a possibility (and there is). The gun barrel missing is 1 of those pieces of evidence pointing to that as a possibility. It is somewhat amusing that what I said before I even saw the picture... that it had a tip that was removed.. was absolutely true. Maybe there is an explanation for it that supports their story, maybe not. What I also said is that there is not enough evidence based on the FACTS that have been released to make a decision either way. Maybe they are liars who f**ked up and killed an innocent kid. Maybe what they say is completely true, in which case they were 100% justified. There is absolutely ZERO way that you can make that judgement with any certainty either way based on what has been released.



But hey, it's the internet. Who the hell am I to care about facts before making a judgement on a subject.

F**k 'em. The little punk deserved to die. Too bad they didn't shoot 5 of his thug buddies at the same time. That better?You are starting to sound like Gene.

[C5SilverBullet]

How convenient. Look at it. The entire forward few inches of that barrel is broken off, including the front sights. Even the "cleaning rod" is broken off of it. If someone wanted to remove the orange tip to make the gun look more "realistic" they sure as hell aren't taking the entire barrel and sights off of it. That was done in a hurry. I wonder why. Hmmmm...

I can almost guarantee you that the kid broke it off. We used to do that all the time when we were little.

[...Whitepower...]

When i was a kid i had a couple plastic looking chrome revolver cap guns. You know the revolver type with the red plastic ring with the powder in the 6 caps that went bang? That was it... Actually i had a few water guns too..

Anyway my parents never got me anything else after a couple of those. I would have to go to my buddies house to shoot his BB gun. Killed quite a few squirrels, chipmunks,frogs, and dragonflies with it.

Now that i think of it, i'm surprised i didn't end up a serial killer. My parents probably saw me take that cap gun and put it to my brothers head and pull the trigger a few times and thought anything bigger wouldn't be a good idea.:rofl:

[Aerovette]

Yeah and women who dress nicely are asking to be raped too...right?:slap:

No, but they will probably get hit on over the heffelump dressed in a tent.

A kid carrying guns (real or not) attracts negative attention/unwanted attention in the same manner.

It pays to advertise. That applies to thugs, sluts or anyone dressed as such even if they are neither.

With NO intentions of robbery, walk in to a bank with a mask on. MANY assumptions will be made and they will all be wrong...but you might die proving the point.

[onedef92]

^ C'mon, you know he has rules about titles for stories like this.

True. Even Hollywood has conventions against gratuitous violence against children. It'd be like making light of the Sandyhook Massacre last Dec. Best to exercise editorial restraint in cases like this. :yesnod:

[ApexOversteer]

UPDATE:

No more than 10 seconds elapsed from the time sheriff's deputies spotted a 13-year-old California boy carrying what they thought was an assault rifle and the moment they shot him dead, only to learn afterward the gun was a plastic replica, police said on Thursday.

It took 16 seconds more for the two officers to call for medical assistance, according to the time line of events released by police investigating Tuesday's shooting in Santa Rosa, a suburb in northern California's wine country.

Andy Lopez Cruz, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, had been on his way to a friend's house clutching the imitation gun designed to shoot plastic pellets, police said. He died at the scene. A toy handgun also was found tucked in his pants.

An autopsy performed on Thursday found seven bullets struck the boy, and that two of the wounds were fatal. Investigators believe a total of eight rounds were fired by one of the two deputies who confronted the youth.

The officers involved in the shooting, two deputies of the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department, have been placed on administrative leave, and the incident was under investigation by the Santa Rosa Police Department and other law enforcement agencies.

But the tragedy has reignited calls in the community for creation of civilian review boards to examine such incidents.

"People have to do something," said Elbert Howard, a founding member of the Police Accountability Clinic and Helpline of Sonoma County. "He's a child, and he had a toy. I see that as an overreaction to shoot him down."

An advisory panel of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission urged Sonoma County to create civilian-review boards in 2000 following eight fatal officer-involved shootings in less than three years, but that recommendation went unheeded.

As many as 200 mourners gathered on Thursday around a makeshift memorial consisting of flowers, balloons, teddy bears and pictures of the boy at the site of the shooting.

Some held candles and signs that said: "What a tragedy, what a travesty."

Friends and family have described the boy as a well-liked eighth-grader who played the trumpet and basketball and had a good sense of humor.

Police Lieutenant Paul Henry issued a brief chronology of the killing that showed the shooting unfolded swiftly following an alert about a suspicious person in the area.

Four seconds later, the two officers radioed for assistance from other deputies. Then six seconds more passed before they notified dispatchers that shots had been fired. Police have previously said the deputies called for backup as soon as they noticed what appeared to be the military-style rifle.

According to that account, one of the deputies opened fire after the boy was twice ordered to put the gun down and instead turned toward the officers as the barrel of the weapon rose in their direction.

Police also have said the deputy who opened fire could not tell from the angle of his position that he was shooting at a child, but saw the gun and feared for his life.

The sheriff's department has refused to identify the deputies involved. Their lawyer has declined to comment.

"We want justice," the boy's father, Rodrigo Lopez, said during a silent vigil in front of Santa Rosa City Hall on Wednesday. "I don't want the same thing to happen to other families."

[onedef92]

No, but they will probably get hit on over the heffalump dressed in a tent.

True and hilarious choice of words, too.

[RED-85-Z51]

Yeah and women who dress nicely are asking to be raped too...right?:slap:

Women who dress like whores, and tempt strange men in a bar..then leave alone and walk in dark alleys...are asking for it...