Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

[Joecooool]

Dear Class of ?13: You?ve been scammed - Brett Arends's ROI - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dear-class-of-13-youve-been-scammed-2013-05-17?siteid=yhoof2)

No one else is going to tell you this, so I might as well.

You sit here today, $30,000 or $40,000 in debt, as the latest victims of what may well be the biggest conspiracy in U.S. history. It is a conspiracy so big and powerful that Dan Brown won’t even touch it. It’s a conspiracy so insidious that you will rarely hear its name.

Move over, Illuminati. Stand down, Wall Street. Area 51? Pah. It’s nothing.

The biggest conspiracy of all? The College-Industrial Complex.

Consider this: You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago. That’s in constant dollars — in other words, after accounting for inflation. There is no evidence that you have received a degree three times as good. Some would wonder if you have received a degree even one times as good.

According to the College Board, in 1983 a typical private American university managed to provide a bachelor’s-degree-level education to young people just like you for $11,000 a year in tuition and fees. That’s in 2012 dollars.

Instead, those of you at private colleges paid this year an average of $29,000.

And back then a public college charged in-state students just $2,200 a year in tuition and fees — in today’s dollars. You could get a full four-year degree for $8,800. Today that will get you one year’s tuition, or $8,700.

Notice, please, we are not even counting the cost of all the “extras,” like room and board. This is just the cost of the teaching.

It is, as a result, no surprise that total student loans are now approaching $1 trillion. They have easily overtaken credit-card debts and car loans. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, total student loans have basically tripled since 2004. Fed researcher Lee Donghoon says that in the last eight years the number of borrowers has gone up by about 70%, and the average amount owed has also gone up about 70%.

Donghoon calculates that about 17% of those with student loans are more than 90 days’ delinquent on their interest payments. Yet he also calculates that 44% haven’t even entered the repayment period at all.

If you turn to the pages of any newspaper, you will read a lot of hand-wringing about this. You will hear attacks on “predatory” student-loan companies and “predatory ... for-profit colleges.” You will hear about cutbacks in Pell Grants and federal aid and proposals to lower the interest rate on subsidized federal loans. But all of these comments ignore one basic problem.

It’s the cost, stupid.

U.S. colleges are a rip-off. Two decades ago I spent six years at Cambridge and Oxford universities, and it didn’t cost me a nickel. Admittedly, one reason was social policy: The taxpayers paid the bill (and a very good return they earned too, given the British taxes I paid once I graduated and started work). But the second reason was that these universities did not charge an arm, leg and other appendage for the act of teaching.

My undergraduate course at Cambridge largely consisted of one hour a week with a tutor, a weekly essay question and research list, and a library card. This teaching model hadn’t changed much, really, since the days of Aristotle. Student, teacher, discussion. See you same time next week.

How on earth do colleges today ramp up costs to $40,000 a year?

Yes, I know that in the sciences the costs of teaching may have risen to some extent legitimately. But that’s probably wildly exaggerated, especially at the undergraduate level. And in the humanities and liberal arts any claim that the real cost should be rising faster than inflation is complete nonsense.

I know of a young singer who had to drop out of conservatory because he couldn’t afford the tuition. Think about that. How much should singing lessons cost? We’re talking about a soundproof room and a voice coach. The student brings the vocal cords. How is this worth tens of thousands a year?

Part of the answer lies in the arms race of fancy facilities being built by colleges. Part of the answer lies in escalating salaries, especially for academic “divas,” the marquee names recruited at great expense to bring in the customers ... er, students. Part of the answer lies in institutional metastasis: the expansion of bureaucracy, like any bureaucracy.

The student drama facilities at Cambridge consisted of a few rooms here and there and a damp basement below an old church. Out of this the university produced the comedy troupe Monty Python, and a legion of successors. Hollywood director and actor Chris Weisz, who was at university when I was there, began his dramatic career in a bizarre play called “Mango Tea” in a room above a pub. But apparently today’s colleges need dramatic facilities suitable for staging “Les Mis.”

Some members of the College-Industrial Complex are talking about a new solution to bring down costs. They want to reduce, or eliminate, the amount spent on the actual teaching. Instead, students will watch online videos. Perhaps these will be on YouTube, or TED. It sounds like a column by the late, great Art Buchwald: “For $30,000 a year we can provide you with a top-of-the-range B.A. degree, just without any actual teaching.” You couldn’t make this up. But we’re already halfway there anyway. Even today most undergraduates don’t get within a million miles of the big-name professors they’re paying for.

Today’s graduates, so badly served by comparison with their parents and grandparents, may actually look lucky to those who come later. Costs are probably going to keep rising. The super-rich can bid up prices, just as they do for real estate in New York or London. (The difference is that you don’t have to live in New York or London, but you do have to get a degree: Unemployment rates for those without a bachelor’s degree are twice as high as for those who have one.) The conspiracy will keep pushing for more federal support.

How high will it go? Try this: The College-Industrial Complex says that degrees are still worth it because those with B.A. degrees will earn a lot more over the course of their lifetimes, and should pay for that. They point to U.S. Census data showing those with bachelor’s degrees earning on average $26,000 a year more than those with just a high-school diploma.

Using that logic, they could justify charges approaching $500,000 for a college degree. With the interest rate on subsidized student loans down to 3.4%, the net present value of those future earnings is, theoretically, very high.

No one is going to slap that price tag on a degree in public. Not yet. But these numbers are based on some basic financial calculations. If I’ve done them, you can bet those in the Complex have, too.

Some members of the Complex are pushing for the interest rate on student loans to be slashed to 1%, subsidized by taxpayer dollars. The lower that interest rate, the more the colleges can charge.

This isn’t just a rip-off. It is also a conspiracy.

You’ll notice how college fees, miraculously, move in tandem. You’ll notice how few colleges are willing to break ranks. Above all, you’ll notice amazingly little frank and open discussion of this from the usual sources.

Call me crazy if you like. Tell me I should have mimeographed this column in purple ink. Send me sarcastic emails asking if the CIA is sending me signals through the metal fillings in my teeth. Fact is, a horrifying number of people are in on the conspiracy — directly and indirectly. And, as in many of the most insidious and effective conspiracies, most of them don’t even realize they’re involved.

The rich and connected benefit from the escalation of college costs because it prices middle-class kids out of the market. For the 1%, a bill of $20,000 or $60,000 isn’t much different. But suddenly Junior’s chances of getting in to Prestige U. are a lot better, since many will decide they can’t afford to apply. College is a luxury good again, like $3,000 Italian shoes. Great news for those who can afford it.

Fancier sports arenas and drama facilities just add to the exclusivity. Indeed, astonishingly, I have seen one or two “conservative” writers actually complain that good public colleges are underpriced. Berkeley, they say, should raise its prices to equal those of Stanford.

After all, you don’t want to let in the riffraff!

Meanwhile there’s a second group who are in on the conspiracy: the media.

The reason? Self-interest.

Some members of the media already work in the Complex. They teach in colleges, or they hold down some cushy sinecure in a university’s “media institute” or think tank. Many more journalists have friends, or family, who are employed by a college. And still more journalists are hoping to land college jobs themselves one day.

Consider the deafening media silence over the phenomenon of graduate degrees in journalism, where young people are scammed out of $30,000 or more for the privilege of earning a certificate to practice a dying craft. Working journalists, in private, all agree how utterly crazy and ridiculous it is that young people are still going to journalism school. I hear this all the time.

But good luck finding much commentary about it in public. The reason? J-school no longer exists to teach the journalists of tomorrow (if it ever did) but to employ the journalists of yesterday. Every reporter awaiting the dreaded Next Round of Layoffs has J-School lined up as Plan B. Good luck getting that job, though, if the hiring professor’s Google search of your recent articles turns up a scathing expose of journalism school. You’ll end up at Starbucks instead.

Like I said, call me crazy. Tell me I’m paranoid. But, whatever you do, don’t forget to tip ten years from now, when I serve you that decaf soy latte.

[Chris Fowler]

College prices are amazingly out of control. I can't figure out how I'm going to afford to send my daughter to a public college in 8 years, and we make decent money.

No clue how other families will be pulling it off.

[NeedSpeed]

My 4 year Engineering degree was maybe $10-12k total

Degrees at places like ITT charge $30-40k for an Associate :willy:

[C5SilverBullet]

The cost of the degree is rising almost as fast as the value of the degree is declining.

[RedLS1GTO]

Prices are very quickly going out of control and there are MANY reasons for it. Looking at it as simple minded as saying it is simply universities wanting to build new buildings like this guy seems to think is about what I would expect from someone with a journalism degree.

If you are dumb enough to waste money on a degree either for yourself or to send your kid off to some expensive school for a degree that gives absolutely no real world marketability, it's your own fault. If you think that drinking your way through some liberal arts program should somehow end with a $100k job being handed to you, you are an idiot.

With very few exceptions (and I honestly can't think of any at the moment), B.A. programs need to lose all government funding and have that money go towards programs like engineering, computer sciences, medical, etc. You know... programs where the education is actually beneficial. If you want a grant, you will be using it in a program that will make you marketable upon graduation. You will also get that grant based on 100% on merit, not because of your race, sex, or any other bullshit qualifier.

U.S. colleges are a rip-off. Two decades ago I spent six years at Cambridge and Oxford universities, and it didn’t cost me a nickel. Admittedly, one reason was social policy: The taxpayers paid the bill (and a very good return they earned too, given the British taxes I paid once I graduated and started work). But the second reason was that these universities did not charge an arm, leg and other appendage for the act of teaching.

...

My undergraduate course at Cambridge largely consisted of one hour a week with a tutor, a weekly essay question and research list, and a library card. This teaching model hadn’t changed much, really, since the days of Aristotle. Student, teacher, discussion. See you same time next week.

For the act of teaching? What exactly did they "teach" you? An hour a week? Maybe that's because you were being "taught" journalism, you ignorant f**k. Try to learn something of actual substance like that and see how that approach works out for you. :rolleyes:

[FasterTraffic]

Prices are very quickly going out of control and there are MANY reasons for it. Looking at it as simple minded as saying it is simply universities wanting to build new buildings like this guy seems to think is about what I would expect from someone with a journalism degree.

If you are dumb enough to waste money on a degree either for yourself or to send your kid off to some expensive school for a degree that gives absolutely no real world marketability, it's your own fault. If you think that drinking your way through some liberal arts program should somehow end with a $100k job being handed to you, you are an idiot.

With very few exceptions (and I honestly can't think of any at the moment), B.A. programs need to lose all government funding and have that money go towards programs like engineering, computer sciences, medical, etc. You know... programs where the education is actually beneficial. If you want a grant, you will be using it in a program that will make you marketable upon graduation. You will also get that grant based on 100% on merit, not because of your race, sex, or any other bullshit qualifier.

For the act of teaching? What exactly did they "teach" you? An hour a week? Maybe that's because you were being "taught" journalism, you ignorant f**k. Try to learn something of actual substance like that and see how that approach works out for you. :rolleyes:

Your neighbors all mow their lawns on a regular basis, right?

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Your neighbors all mow their lawns on a regular basis, right?

I hope so. I'm convinced I can see that vein popping in his forehead whenever he posts something. Hell, ANYTHING. :lol:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

If you are dumb enough to waste money on a degree either for yourself or to send your kid off to some expensive school for a degree that gives absolutely no real world marketability, it's your own fault.
*Choice.

If you think that drinking your way through some liberal arts program should somehow end with a $100k job being handed to you, you are an idiot
Agreed.

With very few exceptions (and I honestly can't think of any at the moment), B.A. programs need to lose all government funding and have that money go towards programs like engineering, computer sciences, medical, etc
Ridiculous.

You know... programs where the education is actually beneficial.
If someone decides they want to take Literature in college and teach the symbolism of "The Great Gatsby" for a living, that is a decision they get to make in this country. And funding for that Literature degree is no less valid than your Engineering degree.

If you want a grant, you will be using it in a program that will make you marketable upon graduation.
A Literature degree will make you marketable in your chosen field. Literature. That's no less valid than anything else. It will be useless if you're trying land a Engineering job however.

You will also get that grant based on 100% on merit, not because of your race, sex, or any other bullshit qualifier.
Agreed.

If someone is working in their chosen field and that person is happy, living within their means, and is a productive member of society? That person is a success.

[Craig]

A Literature degree will make you marketable in your chosen field. Literature. That's no less valid than anything else. It will be useless if you're trying land a Engineering job however.

What specific jobs other than teacher or writer?


If someone is working in their chosen field and that person is happy, living within their means, and is a productive member of society? That person is a success.

Should society pay for happiness, or results?

BTW: As a point of pride, I paid my own way through my BS in Mech Eng., no loans (I did win three grants that paid about a semester each, because I was a good student). Working two jobs most of the way, paying a mortgage and sending a kid to private school. The people that say it can't be done are lazy losers.

To be fair, it took eight years.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Should society pay for happiness, or results?
Society should be even handed with what they pay for. Which also somewhat answers your first question.

This is still free country, and people are are free to choose whatever path suits them. Art, Literature, Engineering, Science, Music, Fine Arts, Theater, Fashion Design, etc.

Return on investment isn't the end game to many people.

[mrvette]

If someone decides they want to take Literature in college and teach the symbolism of "The Great Gatsby" for a living, that is a decision they get to make in this country. And funding for that Literature degree is no less valid than your Engineering degree.


A Literature degree will make you marketable in your chosen field. Literature. That's no less valid than anything else. It will be useless if you're trying land a Engineering job however.




Lit degrees are ONLY good for teaching, nothing else, not even 'news' reporting.....

which makes Lit/etc degrees almost worthless, and so I noted this bullshit back in skool daze some nearly 50 years ago, .....even some profs admitted it, what a joke.....

Kolledge is not worth a damn these daze....time to drop the bullshit, and liberal farts.....

Oh, I dated the daughter of Senator Claybourne Pell, from NC.....long ago...

woopie doo....


:rofl:

[Jeff '79]

My daughter has $35k in loans for a BS in biology from Bucknell.
The tuition is $53k/yr....
Damn, my barn reno is going at a snails pace....

Hunter College in Manhattan is costing $3k/yr, but apartments in Manhattan ain't cheap...
I guess I'll wait until 2017 for that new Vette...:dance:

No college, no career .... Put up or shut up.

[CP]

Fortunately, I was lucky enough to have enough to pay for my daughter's 4 years at Penn (27k per), UTSA medical school (9k tuition and 12k living/year) plus other incidentals. I think it was around 250k total for those 8 years.

I am so glad that she isn't saddled with any student loan debt, and I hope someday a Lambo may show up in my garage, courtesy of daughter #1.

For those of you who refuse to pay for education for your children, shame on you. Education is the key to success in this world (of course that depends on how you define success).

As someone once said, "I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better."

[ApexOversteer]

So what happens when the education bubble pops?

[RedLS1GTO]

Your neighbors all mow their lawns on a regular basis, right?

Not really sure what that is supposed to mean... :shrug:

I hope so. I'm convinced I can see that vein popping in his forehead whenever he posts something. Hell, ANYTHING. :lol:

I don't know why you feel the constant need to try to try to psychoanalyze what I say but as usual, you are wrong in your attempt. For whatever reason, you seem to like to picture me as some hate filled, angry, punk. I have no idea why you have formed that opinion, but you couldn't be farther from the truth. I hate to break it to you, but there is no vein popping, no anger, no hate. I'm in a fine mood and a topic like this on an internet car forum is nowhere even close to registering on my Give-A-Damn meter.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

you seem to like to picture me as some hate filled, angry, punk.
You're not a punk in the least. But I will say, most of your posts aren't very light-hearted.

[RedLS1GTO]

A Literature degree will make you marketable in your chosen field. Literature. That's no less valid than anything else. It will be useless if you're trying land a Engineering job however.

Marketable in the field of Literature? What exactly does that mean? What percentage of people with Literature degrees find jobs in that field?

Now... compare that to the percentage of those with an engineering degree who work either in a pure engineering job or in a field where that technical knowledge is key.

If the point of your degree is saying you have a degree, then yea... it is just as valid. If the point of the degree is to be useful as a career, it is not even close.

[RedLS1GTO]

Funny I've put my journalism degree to work for me. I'm an an "ignorant f**k" too? :confused:

I didn't say he was ignorant because of his degree. I said he was ignorant because of the comment I quoted. Thinking that method would work for other degrees as he implies? Yea, that's ignorant.

Do you think you could learn astrophysics with the method he outlined? Do want a surgeon operating on you who was in class for an hour and then turned in an essay a week?

I think not.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

If the point of the degree is to be useful as a career, it is not even close.
You're either deliberately being obstinate, or you're a ****ing idiot.
And since I'm pretty damn sure you're not a ****ing idiot given your background and accomplishments, I'm gonna go with the former.

If your degree is in English Literature, and you're working in English Literature, THAT'S VALID!! Jesus Christ Red Goat. You surely understand that!!

[RedLS1GTO]

If your degree is in English Literature, and you're working in English Literature, THAT'S VALID!!

OK, now who is popping a vein. :shrug:

You added a key phrase... "and you're working in English Literature."

The point that you seem to be missing somehow is that the vast majority of people with these liberal arts degrees DON'T actually find work in those fields.

How many art history majors work in a field even remotely related to art? How many literature majors get jobs working in literature? When you compared to the percentage of those with degrees in engineering, medical, computer science, etc who find work in that field, it is not even close.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

OK, now who is popping a vein.
Me!!!

How many art history majors work in a field even remotely related to art?
I have no idea. None.

How many literature majors get jobs working in literature?
I have no idea. None.

The point that you seem to be missing somehow is that the vast majority of people with these liberal arts degrees DON'T actually find work in those fields.
That's their own damn fault. But I'm still going to stand behind my position. If you REALLY want to be an Art major, TERRIFIC. Every opportunity for funding that the Engineering student is allowed, should be offered to the the Art major. They're both valid career choices.

[VatorMan]

I find value in all fields of "learned" people. I just don't put a high value on people that don't know how simple things work.

[FasterTraffic]

I find value in all fields of "learned" people. I just don't put a high value on people that don't know how simple things work.

People who...

:leaving:

[mrvette]

Society should be even handed with what they pay for. Which also somewhat answers your first question.

This is still free country, and people are are free to choose whatever path suits them. Art, Literature, Engineering, Science, Music, Fine Arts, Theater, Fashion Design, etc.

Return on investment isn't the end game to many people.

ARTS don't pay the bills, only PRODUCTIVE folks do that, ARTS is crap, breeding suckers off the productive types.....

what can anyone DO with an ARTS degree??? teach?? teach what??? more ARTS??? self perpetuating bullshit not worth knowing except as a hobby.....


and somehow WE the folks who actually DO something to hold the world/society together are supposed to TAX ourselves to hold this bullshit ARTS community up as something to be ADMIRED???


HORSE SHIT!!!!!


useless crap.....you we ALL know it......


Name an 'artist' that pulled us out from the ass end of a mule over the last 200 years......


:issues::issues:

[yell01]

College prices are amazingly out of control. I can't figure out how I'm going to afford to send my daughter to a public college in 8 years, and we make decent money.

No clue how other families will be pulling it off.
I think about it too and I've got saved what should be two and a half years of college for each of my two kids now. But in 8 years when my daughter goes who knows if I'll have enought for a year and a half. If it keeps up at it's current pace it's a couple years of JC for them and then off to a University to finish up.

No college, no career .... Put up or shut up.

:rofl: :rofl:

I didn't go to college. A year of JC and that's it. I do better than all of my friends who went to four years of college and got degrees. Plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc...all valid professions and no college needed. Trade school maybe but not college.

[ZipZap]

The cost of the degree is rising almost as fast as the value of the degree is declining.

How else can we convince you to go to grad school?

[99 pewtercoupe]

Agreed.

If someone is working in their chosen field and that person is happy, living within their means, and is a productive member of society? That person is a success.

Well said Thomas.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Trade school maybe but not college
This is the direction I took and it worked out well for me in spite of some bad personal choices early on. If you'd have told me 20 years ago I'd be sitting in an office writing procedures and work instructions at a nuclear station in 2013? I'd have laughed at you.

[Jeff '79]

I think about it too and I've got saved what should be two and a half years of college for each of my two kids now. But in 8 years when my daughter goes who knows if I'll have enought for a year and a half. If it keeps up at it's current pace it's a couple years of JC for them and then off to a University to finish up.


:rofl: :rofl:

I didn't go to college. A year of JC and that's it. I do better than all of my friends who went to four years of college and got degrees. Plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc...all valid professions and no college needed. Trade school maybe but not college.

Will your body be shot at 40 yrs old?

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Will your body be shot at 40 yrs old?
Depends on the trade to a degree. The Steamfitters job is typically heavy, heavy work. Therefore we use a lot of tooling to perform that work. Chainfalls, come-alongs, rigging, pipe carts, cranes, etc.

The trades are certainly more physical than sitting at a desk leering at the hot chick down the hall, but physical activity won't kill ya. :D

[GRN ENVY]

Anyone care to take a guess as to why tuition is raised every year??????




















One reason being all the scholarships they give out. Say you have 15000 students. It costs 10,000 a year per student( I wish). You give 5000 students full rides, guess what you just created a shortage of income so where do you get the extra money, you raise the tuition for the rest of the student body to cover the loss.


Yeah college costs a lot. But I dont have a choice. Colleges are monopolistic. Pay it and get the degree, or don't pay and don't get a degree. I would love to see a collegic system where colleges compete on academic standing and value to the student. Not the other way around.

While we are on the subject, some professors make too much damn money! It came to light in another thread of the break down of Salaries. My university break down came into play. I found that one of my professors makes 121k a year and he only teaches 1 course available at 3 different times. Makes up for about 250 students a semester. Classes are 3 hours a week and are split into two sessions. So he is in the class room teaching 9 hours a week, add in some office/ tutoring hours. Also add in time for grading/ tests. That's pulling in so e cash. Oh and yeah that's not teaching summer school. Must be nice to use the same 4 tests in rotation and teach the same curriculum every semester and pull in 10g's a month.


You can also take college text book prices and shove those up someones ass. Texts bookes depreciate bad. I had a $240 textbook that I had to buy new because that's what was available, went to sellit back, mind you only 3 months use. Still looked and felt new. Was offered $62 for it. Isn't that crap?



But guess what I have no freaking choice but to pay every last cent. I know college is a ripoff but to get where I want to go I need to buy one of those fancy $40k pieces of paper that tells what ever employers I may work for that I was able to take notes and memorize facts that will never be used for another purpose other than filling in the bubble on a scantron for a test.


On a side note I refuse to take any money from my parents for college. It was my choice to go there so why do they need to pay. If I wanted to make my life easy in college I should have worked harder in high school to get that scholarship or the grant to pay for my schooling. But I didn't so it's loans and out of pocket for Marcus

[RED-85-Z51]

I blame the kids who change majors 3 times, and become career students...it sickens me, these people that graduated HS with me in 04, and have yet to secure ANY JOB yet hold multiple degrees in multiple fields, and are bragging about reenrolling for next semester....wtf

[RED-85-Z51]

You know crazy people, that much we already know. :)

I know you dont I...:kimblair:

[NeedSpeed]

Anyone care to take a guess as to why tuition is raised every year??????




















One reason being all the scholarships they give out. Say you have 15000 students. It costs 10,000 a year per student( I wish). You give 5000 students full rides, guess what you just created a shortage of income so where do you get the extra money, you raise the tuition for the rest of the student body to cover the loss.


Yeah college costs a lot. But I dont have a choice. Colleges are monopolistic. Pay it and get the degree, or don't pay and don't get a degree. I would love to see a collegic system where colleges compete on academic standing and value to the student. Not the other way around.

While we are on the subject, some professors make too much damn money! It came to light in another thread of the break down of Salaries. My university break down came into play. I found that one of my professors makes 121k a year and he only teaches 1 course available at 3 different times. Makes up for about 250 students a semester. Classes are 3 hours a week and are split into two sessions. So he is in the class room teaching 9 hours a week, add in some office/ tutoring hours. Also add in time for grading/ tests. That's pulling in so e cash. Oh and yeah that's not teaching summer school. Must be nice to use the same 4 tests in rotation and teach the same curriculum every semester and pull in 10g's a month.


You can also take college text book prices and shove those up someones ass. Texts bookes depreciate bad. I had a $240 textbook that I had to buy new because that's what was available, went to sellit back, mind you only 3 months use. Still looked and felt new. Was offered $62 for it. Isn't that crap?



But guess what I have no freaking choice but to pay every last cent. I know college is a ripoff but to get where I want to go I need to buy one of those fancy $40k pieces of paper that tells what ever employers I may work for that I was able to take notes and memorize facts that will never be used for another purpose other than filling in the bubble on a scantron for a test.


On a side note I refuse to take any money from my parents for college. It was my choice to go there so why do they need to pay. If I wanted to make my life easy in college I should have worked harder in high school to get that scholarship or the grant to pay for my schooling. But I didn't so it's loans and out of pocket for Marcus

Well, couple things you need to keep in mind.

Most college professors aren't there to teach, they do research which is funded usually by a local corporation. Teaching is a side job. Now, if they can get tenure then they are home free. Otherwise, they are just part time help bringing in research money.

And while degrees are important in one sense, I've never had a company ask me for proof of my education other than teaching. That said, if you can hold your own in an interview, you're good. Unfortunately, most can't.

Even with a degree.

[RED-85-Z51]

I don't believe we've ever met. :rofl:

That you know of:barnbabe:

[NeedSpeed]

For the record, Computer Science is often a Bachelor of Arts degree.

[Torqaholic]

You sit here today, $30,000 or $40,000 in debt


At least college people asked for their debt. Unborn children have more debt than this shoved down their throat thanks to your criminal buddies in the white house.

[GRN ENVY]

Well, couple things you need to keep in mind.

Most college professors aren't there to teach, they do research which is funded usually by a local corporation. Teaching is a side job. Now, if they can get tenure then they are home free. Otherwise, they are just part time help bringing in research money.

And while degrees are important in one sense, I've never had a company ask me for proof of my education other than teaching. That said, if you can hold your own in an interview, you're good. Unfortunately, most can't.

Even with a degree.

Yes you are right about the research, but I'm in the business school. Don't know what you'd be researching for, unless you're writing a new book. I guess you could be researching new processes for the business world but hard to say at this point.

[sanchez]

Yes you are right about the research, but I'm in the business school. Don't know what you'd be researching for, unless you're writing a new book. I guess you could be researching new processes for the business world but hard to say at this point.

I did my MBA at the University of Miami and can say that all of the profs, at the graduate level, we there to teach the 30 of us in the program as well as perform research. To maintain their positions the have to be published a certain number of times a year.

The research was across all disciplines. From trying to determine why companies filed their 10k's when they did to understanding the impact of social media on marketing, to understanding the way that massive amounts of data can help or hinder a business.

Was it a super expensive private school? Sure, but for me it was total worth it. The alumni connections have been excellent and the professors I had 2 years ago still respon to emails within 24 hours to answer any business questions or offer guidance on research.

My wife went to an even more expensive private school and inhas worked out very well for her too.

Not all college is a waste, and not all private schools are evil. The individual, program of study, and macro economic conditions that individual is facing upon graduate will determine he success/failure of the college experience.

[DJ_Critterus]

For the record, Computer Science is often a Bachelor of Arts degree.

I've never seen it as a B.A. and anything computer/It related was always in the B.A.S. degree plans.

[VITE1]

Well, couple things you need to keep in mind.

Most college professors aren't there to teach, they do research which is funded usually by a local corporation. Teaching is a side job. Now, if they can get tenure then they are home free. Otherwise, they are just part time help bringing in research money.

And while degrees are important in one sense, I've never had a company ask me for proof of my education other than teaching. That said, if you can hold your own in an interview, you're good. Unfortunately, most can't.

Even with a degree.

Something else you have to keep in mind. Just like the public school systems they have been massively increasing Administration while , in many cases, decreasing teaching staffs.

College Costs Out Of Control - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveodland/2012/03/24/college-costs-are-soaring/)



College Costs Out Of Control


College is expensive. Ask any family with post-secondary students and they will tell you just how outrageous are the costs of college education today. And yes, gas, food, and life in general are expensive. But college costs have risen much faster than average inflation for decades so this isn’t a short-term phenomenon. College costs are soaring, seemingly all on their own.

First, let’s remember just how important education over the lifetime of a person. An individual who does not graduate from high school earns on average $23,452, less than the U.S. average wage of $41,444 per year. Further, 68% of the prison population is made up of non-high school graduates. So the first conclusion is that people need to graduate from high school to hope for a “normal” life in this country. Next, someone with an associate of arts degree, or two-year degree, from college earns about the average salary. A four-year college graduate earns on average $55,000 per year and people with post-graduate degrees, master’s degrees, and PhD’s, earn $65,000 per year and beyond. So the statistics show that level of education correlates directly with level of earnings and wealth over time. Further, the unemployment rate correlates with level of education with the highest rates for the lowest education.

Education is the great equalizer in this country. It is the facilitator of the American Dream. People can grow up poor, in an urban or rural setting, but can hope to pull themselves up out of poverty with education. Unlike many other areas of the world, America mostly is a meritocracy facilitated by education. As a society we have recognized this and require elementary and high school education to be provided “free” (paid by tax dollars) to all young people and most states require attendance to age eighteen. Still, 15% of the U.S. population does not have a high school diploma. College, on the other hand, is voluntary and requires payment by the individual. Unfortunately, only 17% of the U.S. population has earned an undergraduate degree.

Since 1982 a typical family income increased by 147%, more than inflation but significantly behind the huge increase in college costs. College costs have been rising roughly at a rate of 7% per year for decades. Since 1985, the overall consumer price index has risen 115% while the college education inflation rate has risen nearly 500%. According to Gordon Wadsworth, author of The College Trap, “…if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $21,500 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $59,800 or over 2 ½ times the inflation rate.” Blunting these increases is a rise in federal student aid including tax credits and deductions. And nearly two thirds of undergraduates now receive some sort of grant aid and student loan borrowing is on the upswing. But loans must be paid back so the pain of payment is only delayed.

State colleges and universities even have controlled prices to students somewhat by throwing more tax dollars at institutions and through private fund raising. But recently that trend has reversed, as states have had to deal with their own fiscal crises. The problem is that the underlying costs keep rising and there is seemingly little effort being expended to control those costs. Imagine what college costs would be if they weren’t underwritten partially by other tax dollars!

Universities, of course, are subject to inflation like all of us: food, water, fuel, electricity, etc. all increase for them as it does for households. And some inflation is due to increased spending on facility construction, especially lab and computer costs. But most of these capital expansions are paid for with donations and debt. The overwhelming cost culprit is labor costs. Between 1993 and 2007, total university expenses rose 35%. But administration expenses rose a whopping 61% and instruction expenses rose 39%. In fact, as a 2010 Goldwater Institute study finds, “universities have in recent years vastly expanded their administrative bureaucracies, while in some cases actually shrinking the numbers of professors.” While enrollment rose between 1993 and 2007 by 14.5%, administrators employed per 100 students rose nearly 40% and spending on administration per student rose by 66%.

Part of the issue is due to the tenure policy at universities. Tenure virtually guarantees employment for life at these institutions regardless of productivity of professors. About half of full-time faculty members have tenure. Senior professors at elite universities now get sabbaticals every third year rather than “just” every seventh year. In 2011, 20 of Harvard’s 48 history professors were on leave.

Another issue is demand. The baby boomlet or baby boom echo group born between 1988 and 1995 have flooded colleges with demand for a limited number of spots. Even so, the college-enrollment has risen by 138% over the past 40 years. This rising demand has tolerated increased costs and allowed universities to raise prices uninhibited by normal economic forces.

Where will it end? Hopefully, capacity will be added at universities to allow greater participation. But even then, if salary and overhead increases continue at the current pace, universities will price themselves out of the reach of most Americans. Perhaps when this happens administrators will be forced to get serious about cost control. Or maybe populist anger will turn from its current focus and realize that the American Dream is being denied them by the profligacy of these college administrators and professors.

People need to wake up and begin to demand fiscal accountability from institutions of higher learning so that future generations have the ability to access higher education and therefore the American Dream.


And let's not forget the role of Easy money in the problem.

Student Loans Drive Up Tuition, Create Demographic Time Bomb and Higher-Education Bubble (http://www.openmarket.org/2012/04/30/student-loans-drive-up-tuition-create-demographic-time-bomb-and-higher-education-bubble/)

[FasterTraffic]

And let's not forget the role of Easy money in the problem.

:iagree:
I'm no expert but it seems that, in any scenario, if you give a whole lot of people a whole lot of money specifically to buy something with a limited supply, the price of that something is heading north in a hurry.

[kingpin]

For the record, Computer Science is often a Bachelor of Arts degree.

There's no future in Computers.

[Nemesis]

On top of all that, for most college grads, a diploma is just a piece of paper that shows you're somewhat book smart. College doesn't prepare you for work in the real world.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

That internet thing is a dead end too.

I've been to the end of the Internet. It's ugly.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

PRC is the end of the internet? :eek: :willy: :D

Just two blocks further on the left. Next to the Unicorn farm and the field of daisies. . :D

[ConstantChange]

I've worked at a public graduate level university for 8 years on their ERP financials system. I've learned a few things about how things work over the years.

Professors, especially at the graduate level, are paid based on how much money they generate. Grant money is a BIIIIIIIG deal and professors that generate it are highly recruited.

My university just built a multi-million dollar cancer center on the campus I work. They are throwing money at professors/doctors doing cancer research. It's like high school athletes being recruited by colleges. Imagine how much money they will generate if one of their faculty finds the cure for cancer. Teaching their class is an afterthought.

People say college is too expensive, but every year I hear "This is the largest incoming freshman class ever." Economics 101 - Supply and Demand.

Also, college is NOT a requirement to be successful in this life. We've been programmed to think "Do good in HS, get a college degree, find a good job, work 30 years, retire, die = a successful life." BULLSHIT! I'm living that lie now and it's not that great. I make "good money" but I still sit in a cube surround by other people who hate their job all day.

If I had a kid today, I'd save money for them to attend school, but I'd steer them towards using that money to start their own business. Take a chance. Once you get in the rat race, it's hard to get out.

The most successful people I know didn't graduate college. Colleges create employees and make it harder to think "outside the box."

I graduated with distinction with my bachelors degree. I've learned more in the past year on my own time than I ever did attending four years of courses. I didn't learn anything in college I couldn't have learned on my own in 1/4th the time.

Until people start telling these colleges to stick it, the prices are going to continue to sky rocket. Supply and demand my friends...supply and demand.

[99 pewtercoupe]

I blame the kids who change majors 3 times, and become career students...it sickens me, these people that graduated HS with me in 04, and have yet to secure ANY JOB yet hold multiple degrees in multiple fields, and are bragging about reenrolling for next semester....wtf

You graduated high school in 2004. Damn Red from some of your posts I had a mental picture of you being some 50ish crotchety coot. :rofl::rofl:
Nothing wrong with being 50 though, I blew past that years ago

[Bill]

I've been to the end of the Internet. It's ugly.

Didn't seem that bad to me.

End of the Internet (http://hmpg.net/)

[Jeff '79]

Didn't seem that bad to me.

End of the Internet (http://hmpg.net/)

:rofl:

[Craig]

That's their own damn fault. But I'm still going to stand behind my position. If you REALLY want to be an Art major, TERRIFIC. Every opportunity for funding that the Engineering student is allowed, should be offered to the the Art major. They're both valid career choices.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. An education costs money and is an investment in future earnings. An education loan is a business transaction between the student and the loan giver. At a state school, the government is also a business partner, because they are paying for a portion of the school's fixed costs.

If the business partners (including the student) are going to make the investment in the education, then there is some expectation of a return. And the fact of the matter is, some educations are more valuable than others in both monetary terms as well as benefit to society.