Wow... some of my classmates are in for a rude awakening

[DJ_Critterus]

For two of my classes we are required to log onto a university site and have discussions on certain topics. The topics aren't important right now, but it deals with networking/IT.

There are many young kids in these classes and people wanting to do a career change. In these discussions you can see all of the idealism and the fact that they have no real world experience with the issues they are discussing.

Now my problem is this: why isn't the teacher addressing that? There are many, many things in this field of study that I have had real world experience in and I've already been labeled a pessimist by a couple of the "know it all students" for stating my experiences both in the military and civilian world. I am also not saying I know everything there is to know on the subjects at hand (that would be the biggest lie told next to anything coming from the White House), but none can refute my claims and none even try to argue my points even though they are swearing that whatever is printed in the book is the way everything works.

Now, the professor is telling them that i am correct, but why is he teaching these unicorn fart ideals that won't lead to a job or good education when he himself is claiming to have god knows how much experience in this field?

It baffles me. Meh, I'll learn what I can and get the A in the class, but it seems like they could be doing a better job of teaching this material using real world situations.

[DAB]

some lessons are best learned thru experience, not by reading a book or listening to a lecture. maybe the prof is one step ahead, and is letting time teach these lessons to those students.

[DJ_Critterus]

some lessons are best learned thru experience, not by reading a book or listening to a lecture. maybe the prof is one step ahead, and is letting time teach these lessons to those students.

That could be what's happening, but I don't see some of these people in the class going out of their way to learn anything beyond what's in the book so they can pass the test and forget the material.

We were discussing something and the topic was how to handle an employee at your help desk who did this, did that, blah blah blah and it was wrong because the person was negligent in what they were doing.

One student responded with training, a talking to, etc...

Me, I said I'd fire that person immediately and get somebody who could handle the job the proper way. Man, did I get the evil eye from all of the kumbayah libs. The teacher asked me to explain and my answer was simple, "I don't have time to deal with stupid and that employee was required to know the job requirements as part of the conditions to get hired. Int hat instance, the employee was a detriment to the job and had to go."

It made sense to me, but then again, I've been there done that and had to fire people in situations similar to that.

[TabuIsMe]

It baffles me. Meh, I'll learn what I can and get the A in the class, but it seems like they could be doing a better job of teaching this material using real world situations.

Like most college classes

[DAB]

and they either won't get hired, or if they do, their performance will not impress, and they will be on the bottom of the ladder for a long time, or will be encouraged to look elsewhere after some time.

keep your eye on the prize. learn as much as you can, and then turn that into as much money as you can. :cert:

[DJ_Critterus]

and they either won't get hired, or if they do, their performance will not impress, and they will be on the bottom of the ladder for a long time, or will be encouraged to look elsewhere after some time.

keep your eye on the prize. learn as much as you can, and then turn that into as much money as you can. :cert:

that' what I'm doing. See, i had been working int he networking field without a degree or the certs. It's almost amazing i was hired in the first place, but I knew my shit. I'm willing to be money that come internship time, I'll have a spot at a company with a job waiting before any of these kids do. That's also because I keep in contact with the people running the programs I worked on in past jobs, too, so I do have the advantage. A good portion of the people int he class are straight out of high school and have no idea what they are getting into. I almost feel pity for some of them.

[8Up]

Think of them as people you WON'T be competing for a job against. I am always surprised how cocky many of the young applicants we get are. I am sometimes asked my personal opinion on them and "they won't be a good fit with our team". Is all that needs to be said and their resume goes in the trash.

[mrvette]

Funny, no matter how small the electrons get, the same shit with obtaining good help.....some things don't change much.....

out of ALL the techs I hired on as a TV shop manager, only ONE, just ONE outta the bunch was worth a damn, and he was a ex Navy Cal Tech....actually knew a hell of a lot right off the bat, better at theory than I was, really.....

he stayed with us for a couple years, and he transferred to Naval Surface Weapons Center.....hated losing him, after he left, the work load on my ass about tripled.....The man never screwed up, great training, not that we didn't screw around with each other when work load was light....the pranks we pulled on each other back and forth.....:dance::lol::rofl:

[Doug28450]

You should change your screen name to DJ_Pessimist.

[mrvette]

My college taught us programming on a Burroughs B1900 mini-computer in the 80's. Every company that I applied at had IBM equip. I finally got my foot in the door at one of them. Everything I learned in college wasn't worth a crap in the real world. Maybe it helped me get my foot in the door...but, I had to learn the IBM world.

Funny how that was, IBM would/could NOT support their 'intelligent terminals' back in the later 70's/early 80's.....their techs knew nothing of that thing called DOS......

My ex, the kid's mom, worked at the Nat. Library of Medicine, across the street from Naval Medical Center, .....so she got to be the main geek via being self taught.....the rest of them learned from her....talking DOS 1.0 here now, 8" floppy discs......talked to the main frame....a bunch of HUGE wheel to wheel Ampeg? tape decks in the basement, wires and a/c run under the floor....the beginnings of the Medical .com around the world library access....online all the time, sat links....

been a while....:shots:

[Mike Mercury]

and they either won't get hired, or if they do, their performance will not impress, and they will be on the bottom of the ladder for a long time,

and will demand the govt (taxpayers) should guarantee then a high paying job fresh out of college...

[DJ_Critterus]

I'll keep my screen name. It sounds kinda dirty, but it's actually my DJ name in Latin (from a radio stunt we did years ago). :yesnod:

[mrvette]

and will demand the govt (taxpayers) should guarantee then a high paying job fresh out of college...

A job in DC is waiting for them.....good for .gov staff only....


:sadangel:

[Blademaker]

Now, the professor is telling them that i am correct, but why is he teaching these unicorn fart ideals

Those who cannot do, teach.
Those who cannot teach, teach gym.

[Jobaka]

Those who cannot do, teach.
Those who cannot teach, teach gym.

Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't teach, teach gym.
Those that can't teach gym, administrate.







The White Shadow. Damn, I'm old.

[Blademaker]

Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't teach, teach gym.
Those that can't teach gym, administrate.







The White Shadow. Damn, I'm old.

That's what I was looking for! :seasix::D

:rofl:

[mrvette]

That's what I was looking for! :seasix::D

:rofl:

I KNEW there was more to it, but I forgot to remember it......:shots::leaving:

[kingpin]

Deej how old are you?

[DJ_Critterus]

Deej how old are you?

35. I'm probably out of your age range and you have the wrong kinda plumbing for me anyway, so please go hit on Joebuck instead.

[kingpin]

35. I'm probably out of your age range and you have the wrong kinda plumbing for me anyway, so please go hit on Joebuck instead.

:slap:

What my point is, is that you have to be careful what kind of people you work for.
Some places want young minds that haven't been f*cked with and aren't locked down on how they do things. They want to be able to mould the person in to what they want and to do things the way they want.
Not necessarily "yes men".

The older, set in their way canditates will get put aside for those type quite often and some places don't want to deal with "this is the way I do it", attitude.

It's much easier to improve on someones skill set than their attitude or personality that they have been carrying around all their life.

above is just an example and depends on the level of the job obviously.

[DJ_Critterus]

:slap:

What my point is, is that you have to be careful what kind of people you work for.
Some places want young minds that haven't been f*cked with and aren't locked down on how they do things. They want to be able to mould the person in to what they want and to do things the way they want.
Not necessarily "yes men".

The older, set in their way canditates will get put aside for those type quite often and some places don't want to deal with "this is the way I do it", attitude.

It's much easier to improve on someones skill set than their attitude or personality that they have been carrying around all their life.

above is just an example and depends on the level of the job obviously.

True, but I work in government sector and military contract so I'm good with my attitude. The one thing I do have going for me is that I'm flexible and willing to try new techniques, but there are many instances where I do know what won't work.

Where the "no-man" part comes in to play and is a plus is when you say, "No, we can't/shouldn't do that because.... but here's an alternative that will work." You always have to have a back up plan to still achieve the goal and most people I've seen are quick to just say no and walk away.

Another good option for a "no" answer is to say something like, "I'm not so sure that will work. Let me look into and I will have you and answer by such and such a time." I've found employers love that attitude and will give you a bunch of lee-way as long as you follow through.

[Doug28450]

The one thing I do have going for me is that I'm flexible and willing to try new techniques,

Probably not a good idea to tell kingpin that.











:D

[DJ_Critterus]

Probably not a good idea to tell kingpin that.











:D
Yeah, true. I think I'm safe though because I'm not a moose.

[kingpin]

Yeah, true. I think I'm safe though because I'm not a moose.

Nobody's safe! :dance:

[DJ_Critterus]

Nobody's safe! :dance:

Great :rolleyes: We got Knooger's mini-me.

[kingpin]

Great :rolleyes: We got Knooger's mini-me.

pfft! knooger, sanchez, petew combined ain't got nothing on me.

:leaving:

[DJ_Critterus]

pfft! knooger, sanchez, petew combined ain't got nothing on me.

:leaving:

And you're proud? It must be a canadian thing.

[ConstantChange]

Some places want young minds that haven't been f*cked with and aren't locked down on how they do things. They want to be able to mould the person in to what they want and to do things the way they want.

The older, set in their way canditates will get put aside for those type quite often and some places don't want to deal with "this is the way I do it", attitude.

It's much easier to improve on someones skill set than their attitude or personality that they have been carrying around all their life.


I work in IT and interview/hire software developers. This is 100% correct.

[DJ_Critterus]

I work in IT and interview/hire software developers. This is 100% correct.

I've hired and fired people in the GS sector for IT when I was and active duty officer. Of course I wanted flexibility, but I also wanted that experience in the field, too.

For entry level jobs, the scenario you two are talking about worked great. Higher level, flexibility and experience got the interview.

[GRN ENVY]

For two of my classes we are required to log onto a university site and have discussions on certain topics. The topics aren't important right now, but it deals with networking/IT.

There are many young kids in these classes and people wanting to do a career change. In these discussions you can see all of the idealism and the fact that they have no real world experience with the issues they are discussing.

Now my problem is this: why isn't the teacher addressing that? There are many, many things in this field of study that I have had real world experience in and I've already been labeled a pessimist by a couple of the "know it all students" for stating my experiences both in the military and civilian world. I am also not saying I know everything there is to know on the subjects at hand (that would be the biggest lie told next to anything coming from the White House), but none can refute my claims and none even try to argue my points even though they are swearing that whatever is printed in the book is the way everything works.

Now, the professor is telling them that i am correct, but why is he teaching these unicorn fart ideals that won't lead to a job or good education when he himself is claiming to have god knows how much experience in this field?

It baffles me. Meh, I'll learn what I can and get the A in the class, but it seems like they could be doing a better job of teaching this material using real world situations.

I'll sum it up for you, professors go by the book because the material is there, even though it's different from the real world. IF points are brought up pertaining to real world they will expand on it but go back to the book. To be honest many professor claim to have worked with this corporation, and had this title and that title. But yet they are teaching at university. So from what I have developed is that its a stretch of the truth so you suck the BS they spewing and don't question them. Many professors don't have the experience they claim or any at all.

[DJ_Critterus]

I'll sum it up for you, professors go by the book because the material is there, even though it's different from the real world. IF points are brought up pertaining to real world they will expand on it but go back to the book. To be honest many professor claim to have worked with this corporation, and had this title and that title. But yet they are teaching at university. So from what I have developed is that its a stretch of the truth so you suck the BS they spewing and don't question them. Many professors don't have the experience they claim or any at all.

This is true. I was wondering why these professors (many of whom graduated from this same program) went out into the real world then decided to come back and teach full time. Were they not able to cut it, was teaching a more stable gig, what????

Of course, I'm not stupid enough to ask them this, but I do wonder about it. There are two instructors who I do fully appreciate teaching and they are cisco certified instructors who teach the lower level instructors. They do have to know their shit as opposed to everyone else who claims to ahve done this and that.

[GRN ENVY]

This is true. I was wondering why these professors (many of whom graduated from this same program) went out into the real world then decided to come back and teach full time. Were they not able to cut it, was teaching a more stable gig, what????

Of course, I'm not stupid enough to ask them this, but I do wonder about it. There are two instructors who I do fully appreciate teaching and they are cisco certified instructors who teach the lower level instructors. They do have to know their shit as opposed to everyone else who claims to ahve done this and that.

I too wonder that but I'll never ask either. I often think that they couldn't handle the pressure of the corporate world but they will never know.

[kingpin]

I too wonder that but I'll never ask either. I often think that they couldn't handle the pressure of the corporate world but they will never know.

I use to think the same.
"Why is the dude here teaching, when if he was in the industry he could be making bank."

I found out you can't look at it that way.
Some people like you say just can't handle the pressure or stress of the job, but to me I think it's more of that person just not wanting or needing the lifestyle that comes with it.
Teaching pays decent when in Colleges or Universities and is enough with a dual income family to live comfortably.

[99 pewtercoupe]

pfft! knooger, sanchez, petew combined ain't got nothing on me.

:leaving:

That's a pretty elite club right there:rofl:

[kingpin]

That's a pretty elite club right there:rofl:

I am Canadian so that does mean I'm an echelon above you guys in the first place. :dance:

[MEC5LADY]

The kids are going to have a rude awakening no matter what field they go into. The codling, no responsibility, it's all about me and everything's your fault isn't going to fly in a lot of professions.

[jda67gta]

For the overwhelming majority, all college does is teach you how to learn, i.e. to read, comprehend, discuss, and maybe apply part of what you learn in a lab or project, etc..

Experience in the "real world" where value is required to be created by your efforts is where most of the young "know it all's" find out that it ain't quite as simple as the textbooks make it out to be.

[Cybercowboy]

All the programmers (mostly COBOL, some RPG) thought PC's were nothing but toys. THEN...they all started wanting IBM color terminals. I talked it over with my boss and we discovered we could buy a 286 PC with an EGA monitor, emulator card (to trick the mainframe into thinking the PC was a 3180 twinax terminal) and away we went. This was a $200 mil. company back then. The credit dept. had one IBM 5150 to pull D&B reports. Then...everyone wanted a PC. All of that led to networking, email, internet, etc...I loved DOS. I could write some mean *.bat files. When I added cards (like the emulator) I had to exclude the memory range in the config.sys lol If I added an 'above board' to add physical memory. I had to put that into the config.sys. We went from and IBM 8100 - Sys 38 - AS400.We had a tape drive that would auto load the reel tapes - lol. Tough job was lugging 30+ of those reel tapes off-site and up/down the stairs.

One of the first "I can't believe they want me to write this" program was using an emulator card to access our mainframe, then accessing screen memory and the keyboard buffer to "automate" the extraction of a database so it could be imported into a Novell server. Our mainframe guys wouldn't give up the data, so I grabbed it all by running my stupid program for a few days and setting up a Bill of Materials program using the imported database. My boss's boss showed that program to the company VP (the son of the owner, $200 million company) and he asked me how I got the data because he was under the impression it was only available on the mainframe. I showed him. He laughed then said "Son, I want you to come up and talk to our guys in St. Louis, and bring that computer with you."

Sigh

So I did and they doubled down. They not only still refused to let us use PC's to make our own custom stuff, they went out and tried to train everybody how to write reports using a thing called MRCS that was the biggest joke known to man. I could barely write a report script that worked, and I was the best programmer in the company on the PC side. They thought that everybody from a secretary to someone in bidding to a sales person could easily learn how to make reports. They were clueless.

So I wrote one master report module that I ran every single night. It pulled down their entire database into about 12 tables (the ones I needed anyway) but I'd never print anything. I figured how to make the mini computer that ran the big printer to just spool the files to a Novell server and then I'd run a couple of scripts to again build a big database that I could access using FoxPro, and we once again had our custom stuff.

They gave up trying to stop me after that. :lol: I did all this without having a single "computer" class or any official IT training. It was all from reading manuals and having no fear.

[GRN ENVY]

I use to think the same.
"Why is the dude here teaching, when if he was in the industry he could be making bank."

I found out you can't look at it that way.
Some people like you say just can't handle the pressure or stress of the job, but to me I think it's more of that person just not wanting or needing the lifestyle that comes with it.
Teaching pays decent when in Colleges or Universities and is enough with a dual income family to live comfortably.

With out a doubt you are right, though only a handful I have had actually were successful and retired early, the other 90% I don't think could handle the pressure and move to a much slower pace, which is teaching. Which is fine, but don't feed me this bs about how great you were in the business world

[mrvette]

One of the first "I can't believe they want me to write this" program was using an emulator card to access our mainframe, then accessing screen memory and the keyboard buffer to "automate" the extraction of a database so it could be imported into a Novell server. Our mainframe guys wouldn't give up the data, so I grabbed it all by running my stupid program for a few days and setting up a Bill of Materials program using the imported database. My boss's boss showed that program to the company VP (the son of the owner, $200 million company) and he asked me how I got the data because he was under the impression it was only available on the mainframe. I showed him. He laughed then said "Son, I want you to come up and talk to our guys in St. Louis, and bring that computer with you."

Sigh

So I did and they doubled down. They not only still refused to let us use PC's to make our own custom stuff, they went out and tried to train everybody how to write reports using a thing called MRCS that was the biggest joke known to man. I could barely write a report script that worked, and I was the best programmer in the company on the PC side. They thought that everybody from a secretary to someone in bidding to a sales person could easily learn how to make reports. They were clueless.

So I wrote one master report module that I ran every single night. It pulled down their entire database into about 12 tables (the ones I needed anyway) but I'd never print anything. I figured how to make the mini computer that ran the big printer to just spool the files to a Novell server and then I'd run a couple of scripts to again build a big database that I could access using FoxPro, and we once again had our custom stuff.

They gave up trying to stop me after that. :lol: I did all this without having a single "computer" class or any official IT training. It was all from reading manuals and having no fear.

:seasix:

Man, that just flat out sounds like FUN, and yes I am jealous.....


:issues::sadangel::seasix::hurray::lol:

[DJ_Critterus]

The kids are going to have a rude awakening no matter what field they go into. The codling, no responsibility, it's all about me and everything's your fault isn't going to fly in a lot of professions.

One teacher did chew three kid's asses for walking in late. I mean, he stopped the lecture and started grilling them about where the class was, time it started, what they plan to do in the real world, blah blah blah... I thought it was funny as hell.

[Oh-yaa]

I am Canadian so that does mean I'm an echelon above you guys in the first place. :dance:

A parallel above at least. :D

[73sbVert]

With out a doubt you are right, though only a handful I have had actually were successful and retired early, the other 90% I don't think could handle the pressure and move to a much slower pace, which is teaching. Which is fine, but don't feed me this bs about how great you were in the business world

My Calc II and III professor was a great guy and was a legend in the radar development world, but not a great teacher in formal classroom setting!
One on one, Saturday extra help day, he was awesome! But during regular class, he just read to us the paragraphs he wanted to cover right out of the book.
When he gave examples on HOW to use the concepts however, those were always excellent though, but those occasions were pretty rare.

He's dead now. :sadangel:

[DJ_Critterus]

I enjoy classes with teachers who expect you to read the book first, then discuss in class, and encourage the students to argue for or against certain points. The will step in when needed to assert the points he wanted made for learning purposes if none of the students touch on that/those specific topics. To me, that makes for a great class.

[ConstantChange]

One teacher did chew three kid's asses for walking in late. I mean, he stopped the lecture and started grilling them about where the class was, time it started, what they plan to do in the real world, blah blah blah... I thought it was funny as hell.

Where I work they would be called managers. :leaving:

[DJ_Critterus]

Where I work they would be called managers. :leaving:

exactly. And this professor was being much nicer and more polite than any manager I have known (myself included)

[MEC5LADY]

One teacher did chew three kid's asses for walking in late. I mean, he stopped the lecture and started grilling them about where the class was, time it started, what they plan to do in the real world, blah blah blah... I thought it was funny as hell.

I had a professor that locked the door and pulled down the shade as soon as the clock struck 8am. It only took one student to knock on the door for everyone to realize 1. You would get a major tongue-lashing (not a fun one either) for disturbing the class. 2. You were not going to be let into the class. He was a really good Professor and had forewarned everyone the first couple of days of class about the rules. He expected us to act like professionals and be on time since our patient's lives could depend on it. It only took a couple of days to realize he wasn't fooling around and people were on time.

As a side note, he got grief a few times from kids for not letting the class leave early. He asked these students a few questions about products and services they expected when they were paying for it. Everyone said they wanted to get their monies worth. He then asked "why you would not want to get the most for your money when it comes to your college education?:cert:

[Entropy]

For the overwhelming majority, all college does is teach you how to learn, i.e. to read, comprehend, discuss, and maybe apply part of what you learn in a lab or project, etc..

Experience in the "real world" where value is required to be created by your efforts is where most of the young "know it all's" find out that it ain't quite as simple as the textbooks make it out to be.

This. I know my students won't be able to do 60% of what they showed they were able to do 6 months after the course is completed. Comes with the territory. I try to focus more on developing the ability to think critically through problems, with mixed results. I walk an interesting tightrope between developing these skills for some and turning the rest out that can't even remotely hack it. Even with a 33% fail/drop rate, I have a good reputation with students, and most of those admit their own shortcomings when it comes to the material.

I enjoy classes with teachers who expect you to read the book first, then discuss in class, and encourage the students to argue for or against certain points. The will step in when needed to assert the points he wanted made for learning purposes if none of the students touch on that/those specific topics. To me, that makes for a great class.

That's my ideal situation. It happens occasionally, but most students just show up expecting me to fill their heads magically. It could be a function of the clientele at my particular institution, but I've seen it at several institutions.

I had a professor that locked the door and pulled down the shade as soon as the clock struck 8am. It only took one student to knock on the door for everyone to realize 1. You would get a major tongue-lashing (not a fun one either) for disturbing the class. 2. You were not going to be let into the class. He was a really good Professor and had forewarned everyone the first couple of days of class about the rules. He expected us to act like professionals and be on time since our patient's lives could depend on it. It only took a couple of days to realize he wasn't fooling around and people were on time.

As a side note, he got grief a few times from kids for not letting the class leave early. He asked these students a few questions about products and services they expected when they were paying for it. Everyone said they wanted to get their monies worth. He then asked "why you would not want to get the most for your money when it comes to your college education?:cert:

That's something I'm looking at adopting (late to the classroom). I don't generally since those people usually flunk themselves out. As far as getting their investment out, my students can count on one hand (usually one finger) the number of times I let them out early.

As far as those who state that those who can't, teach; I challenge anyone in this thread to do what I did in undergrad/grad. To do the high level research I used to do requires dedication and high level thinking that most of the population just aren't capable of. Although I'm in academia due to my preference for dealing with people over chemicals, there's not anything simple about it. Period. Most ridiculous statement when applied to hard sciences.

If you're referring to business/soft science, feel free.

[mrvette]

This. I know my students won't be able to do 60% of what they showed they were able to do 6 months after the course is completed. Comes with the territory. I try to focus more on developing the ability to think critically through problems, with mixed results. I walk an interesting tightrope between developing these skills for some and turning the rest out that can't even remotely hack it. Even with a 33% fail/drop rate, I have a good reputation with students, and most of those admit their own shortcomings when it comes to the material.



That's my ideal situation. It happens occasionally, but most students just show up expecting me to fill their heads magically. It could be a function of the clientele at my particular institution, but I've seen it at several institutions.



That's something I'm looking at adopting (late to the classroom). I don't generally since those people usually flunk themselves out. As far as getting their investment out, my students can count on one hand (usually one finger) the number of times I let them out early.

As far as those who state that those who can't, teach; I challenge anyone in this thread to do what I did in undergrad/grad. To do the high level research I used to do requires dedication and high level thinking that most of the population just aren't capable of. Although I'm in academia due to my preference for dealing with people over chemicals, there's not anything simple about it. Period. Most ridiculous statement when applied to hard sciences.

If you're referring to business/soft science, feel free.

BEEEEP!!!! rong@!!!!!

Business/finance/accounting/business LAW, econ, are what makes the nation work....


other wise you are correct......:seasix: