View Full Version : Over a decade of wins vanish with the stroke of a Penn
The NCAA has hit Penn State with a $60 million sanction, a four-year football postseason ban and a vacation of all wins dating to 1998, the organization said Monday morning.
The career record of former head football coach Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records, the statement continued.
Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period, the release said.
Biggest Postseason Bans
Penn State was hit with a four-year postseason ban from the NCAA on Monday. The penalties also include a $60 million fine and vacation of wins dating to 1998. Here's a list of the longest postseason bans for FBS programs since 1960. No team has ever received a five-year ban.
Other FBS Programs To Receive At Least
a 3-Year Postseason Ban Since 1960
School Report year Length
of ban
Indiana 1960 4 years
• Improper recruiting inducements
Oklahoma St. 1989 3 years
• Improper financial aid, extra benefits
Michigan St. 1976 3 years
• Extra benefits, improper recruiting entertainment
Houston 1966 3 years
• Extra benefits, improper recruiting entertainment
-- Source: NCAA Major Infractions Database
The NCAA revealed the sanctions as NCAA president Mark Emmert and Ed Ray, the chairman of the NCAA's executive committee, and Oregon State's president spoke at a news conference in Indianapolis at the organization's headquarters.
"In the Penn State case, the results were perverse and unconscionable," Emmert said.
"No price the NCAA can levy with repair the damage inflicted by Jerry Sandusky on his victims," he said, referring to the former Penn State defensive coordinator convicted of 45 counts of child sex abuse last month.
The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university."
The Penn State athletic program will also be put on five-year probation and must work with an athletic-integrity monitor of NCAA's chosing.
"There is incredible interest in what will happen to Penn State football," Ray said at the news conference. "But the fundamental chapter of this horrific story should focus on the innocent children and and the powerful people who let them down."
The NCAA's announcement followed a day after Penn State removed Joe Paterno's statue outside Beaver Stadium, a decision that came 10 days after a scathing report by former FBI director Louis J. Freeh found that Paterno, with three other top Penn State administrators, had concealed allegations of child sexual abuse made against Sandusky.
The Freeh report concluded their motive was to shield the university and its football program from negative publicity.
The NCAA took unprecedented measures with the decision to penalize Penn State without the due process of a Committee on Infractions hearing, bypassing a system in which it conducts its own investigations, issues a notice of allegations and then allows the university 90 days to respond before a hearing is scheduled.
Following the hearing, the Infractions Committee then usually takes a minimum of six weeks, but it can take upwards of a year to issue its findings.
But in the case of Penn State, the NCAA appeared to use the Freeh report -- commissioned by the school's board of trustees -- instead of its own investigation.
"We cannot look to NCAA history to determine how to handle circumstances so disturbing, shocking and disappointing," Emmert said in the statement. "As the individuals charged with governing college sports, we have a responsibility to act. These events should serve as a call to every single school and athletics department to take an honest look at its campus environment and eradicate the 'sports are king' mindset that can so dramatically cloud the judgment of educators."
NCAA Division I Board of Directors and/or the NCAA Executive Committee granted Emmert the authority to punish through the nontraditional methods.
"It was a unanimous act," Ray said. "We needed to act."
Penn State athletics had been given no indication from the NCAA about what sanctions or penalties were to be levied on the department and football program, a source with direct knowledge of the situation in State College told ESPN.com's Andy Katz on Sunday night. If this were a traditional infractions case, the athletic department would have known up to 24 hours in advance.
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A trustee said Penn State has hired Gene Marsh, a lawyer for Lightfoot, Franklin & White in Birmingham, Ala., and a former member and chair of the NCAA Infractions Committee. Last week, ESPN contacted Marsh, who also previously represented former Ohio State coach Jim Tressel, and he refused to confirm or deny he had been retained by Penn State.
A former Committee on Infractions chairman and current Division I Appeals Committee member told ESPN.com's Katz on Sunday the NCAA's penalizing of an institution and program for immoral and criminal behavior also breaks new ground.
The former chair, who has been involved with the NCAA for nearly three decades, said he couldn't use his name on the record since the case could come before him and the committee he still serves on in an appeals process.
"This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."
The chair said that the NCAA was dealing with a case that is outside the traditional rules or violations. He said this case does not fall within the basic fundamental purpose of NCAA regulations.
"The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and etcetera," the chair said. "This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field. It has nothing to do with whether Penn State gets advantages over other schools in recruiting or in the number of coaches or things that we normally deal with."
The NCAA, the chair said, had never gotten involved in punishing schools for criminal behavior.
"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.
"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."
Under NCAA rules covering postseason bans, players are allowed to transfer without sitting out a season as long as their remaining eligibility is shorter than or equal to the length of the ban. Only seniors could transfer and play immediately under a one-year ban, but a two-year ban would mean seniors and juniors could both transfer without penalty.
The NCAA, heavily criticized for its sometimes-ponderous pace in deciding penalties as scandals mounted at Ohio State, Auburn, USC and elsewhere, acted with unprecedented swiftness in arriving at the sanctions for a team that is trying to start over with a new coach and a new outlook.
Emmert had put the Penn State matter on the fast track. Other cases that were strictly about violating the NCAA rulebook have dragged on for months and even years. There was no sign that the infractions committee so familiar to college sports fans was involved this time around as Emmert moved quickly, no doubt aided by the July 12 release of the report by former FBI director Louis Freeh and what it said about Paterno and the rest of the Penn State leadership.
The investigation focused partly on university officials' decision not to go to child-welfare authorities in 2001 after a coaching assistant told Paterno that he had seen Sandusky sexually abusing a boy in the locker room showers. Penn State officials already knew about a previous allegation against Sandusky by that time, from 1998.
The leaders, the report said, "repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse from authorities, the university's board of trustees, the Penn State community and the public at large."
Sandusky is awaiting sentencing after being convicted last month of sexually abusing 10 boys over 15 years.
Emmert had warned Penn State last fall that the NCAA would be examining the "exercise of institutional control" within the athletic department, and said it was clear that "deceitful and dishonest behavior" could be considered a violation of ethics rules. So, too, could a failure to exhibit moral values or adhere to ethics guidelines.
The Freeh report also said school had "decentralized and uneven" oversight of compliance issues -- laws, regulations, policies and procedures -- as required by the NCAA.
Recent major scandals, such as improper payments to the family of Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush while he was at Southern California, and players at Ohio State trading memorabilia for cash and tattoos, have resulted in bowl bans and the loss of scholarships.
Paterno won 409 games for the school in his 46 seasons as head coach.
Information from ESPN.com senior writer Andy Katz and The Associated Press was used in this report.
Thoughts?
Current, innocent players get to suffer.
60M? One year's take. Make it back to 98.
lefthander
07-23-2012, 8:51am
Good- NCAA has been far to lenient and forgiving to many programs. With the money involved it is to be expected that institutions will push the envelope as much as possible. That is no different than the pervasive ethos of the modern day work and social society. Like the saying"Nothing is illegal until you get caught":issues::issues:
CropDuster
07-23-2012, 8:52am
I'm all for PSU getting hammered, but I'm not so sure I understand where the NCAA gets some of its authority other than because they say so.
This has less to do with punishing Penn; it's intended to scare the crap out of the rest of the schools with gazion dollar cash-cows sports programs.
Current, innocent players get to suffer.
60M? One year's take. Make it back to 98.
I agree, it sucks that current players have to suffer for the "sins of their fathers" so to speak. I wonder how many newer recruits will jump ship and transfer to other schools.
Good- NCAA has been far to lenient and forgiving to many programs. With the money involved it is to be expected that institutions will push the envelope as much as possible. That is no different than the pervasive ethos of the modern day work and social society. Like the saying"Nothing is illegal until you get caught":issues::issues:
It is sad to see, but it does appear that it was all about the wins and the program to PSU's officials :sadangel:
I'm all for PSU getting hammered, but I'm not so sure I understand where the NCAA gets some of its authority other than because they say so.
I think the NCAA sees themselves as God. In this case, though, there really was no precedent, so it makes you wonder how they came to their decisions.
This has less to do with punishing Penn; it's intended to scare the crap out of the rest of the schools with gazion dollar cash-cows sports programs.
True, and I hope it does scare other programs--no kids should ever have to suffer like that :sadangel:
vetteman9368
07-23-2012, 9:22am
I think suspending their program for a few years vs vacating wins. The players who won those games on the field did nothing wrong.
onedef92
07-23-2012, 9:26am
Headline's dope, too! :seasix:
Headline's dope, too! :seasix:
I hoped you'd be proud :cert:
onedef92
07-23-2012, 9:30am
Originally Posted by vetteman9368
The players who won those games on the field did nothing wrong.
I don't get that part, either. I guess the NCAA wanted to send the strongest message possible to the college athletic community.
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 9:30am
:iagree:
That's where I don't get it. Punish the school by hitting them where it hurts the most, the pocket book.
The wins are just stupid. It's not like the players were cheating at the games or using performance enhancing drugs. Stupid decision NCAA. Stupid. :kick:
It has more to do with taking down Paterno than the kids playing. It takes his name out of the record books and puts it where it needs to be-obscurity.
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 9:31am
I think suspending their program for a few years vs vacating wins. The players who won those games on the field did nothing wrong.
... and suspending the program would hurt the current players, who are even farther removed from wrongdoing.
Fine the sh*t out of the school but I don't at all see the point of the 4 year ban which only punishes the current kids, coaches, and even the Penn State fans who were not even remotely involved. Taking the wins and taking the next 4 seasons does nothing but punish a whole lot of people who did absolutely nothing wrong.
BuckyThreadkiller
07-23-2012, 9:31am
Idiotic. with the minor exception of the fine, these are worthy of a recruiting scandal.
Vacating wins does nothing. It takes Paterno out of the record books, but his legacy is gone anyway.
$60M fine? Boosters will make it up in a year.
Scholarships? Postseason? Sure, punish kids who are in high school now.
mrvette
07-23-2012, 9:32am
I think suspending their program for a few years vs vacating wins. The players who won those games on the field did nothing wrong.
They know they won, some later printed altered 'record book' means nothing but silliness.....comes across as being childish .......
not that I really give a crap about ANY sports anyway......
:leaving::kimblair:
I think suspending their program for a few years vs vacating wins. The players who won those games on the field did nothing wrong.
It's a shame that the current students, faculty, athletes and all the former athletes (those affected by the vacating of the wins) have to be "punished." They had nothing to do with what happened. Fining the school $60M will hurt their academics more than their athletics as I'm sure that's where they'll try to make their cuts. I understand the NCAA wanting to make an example out of PSU so other schools don't follow their example, but try to sanction them in a way that will allow the academic institution to survive unscathed...
Scholarships? Postseason? Sure, punish kids who are in high school now.
It makes total sense to me. It weakens their program. The good up and coming players will find scholorships elsewhere; it's just another incentive to avoid that school's sports programs like the plague.
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 9:40am
It has more to do with taking down Paterno than the kids playing. It takes his name out of the record books and puts it where it needs to be-obscurity.
What's left to take down?? He's laying under the ground dead and the legacy that he had as a great coach is nothing compared to the negative stigma he has now.
I am not at all defending any of these clowns. This was an absolutely disgusting situation and everybody involved needs to be punished accordingly. I just think that the punishment is aimed at the wrong people.
ft laud mike
07-23-2012, 9:43am
They know they won, some later printed altered 'record book' means nothing but silliness.....comes across as being childish .......
not that I really give a crap about ANY sports anyway
:cert::iagree:
BTW, mrvette, I understood your entire post
:shots:
some thoughts on college athletic programs:
long ago, i was on the varsity rowing team at USC, and during this same time, got to have dinner with some of the football players back then. even used the athletic dept tutoring program for a course. and over time, observed several things.
mind you, i was not on scholarship, i was doing sport for fun. my class schedule (mechanical engineering) conflicted with practice time....oops, gotta skip practice.
now the football program was different. they 'helped' you choose your classes so there would be no class/practice and game conflicts. your first duty was to remain eligible and go to practice. taking classes that lead to a useful degree? secondary. it's still that way.
as long as these sports generate the large revenue that they do, there will be incentives to maximize money. rowing? yeah, we had no revenue. i got a t-shirt out of the deal.
solutions? spend less time on sport, more time on classes. wanna play pro ball? maybe time to start a development league by the NFL, right now, they get their talent for free.
i wrote that the USC sanctions only punished the new comers, and the same is true at PSU.
want to get their attention, you cheat, you don't get paid. anything. oh, you signed a contract for $5M/year, give it back, and no more working at a NCAA school for you coach. cheated as an athlete? no degree for you, and you can pay back the value of your 'education'. cheaters should not be rewarded, and innocents should not be punished.
end of rant.
What's left to take down?? He's laying under the ground dead and the legacy that he had as a great coach is nothing compared to the negative stigma he has now.
I am not at all defending any of these clowns. This was an absolutely disgusting situation and everybody involved needs to be punished accordingly. I just think that the punishment is aimed at the wrong people.
It takes him out of the record books and the Paterno fans who still think he did nothing wrong and should have never been fired can no longer claim he was the all time wins leader (but they will, I'm sure). That being said, the rest of the country will filter Paterno's legacy through the lens of the Sandusky scandal while Penn State fans will filter it through the lens of "JoePa was screwed by the media, public, and NCAA and he did nothing wrong." Go find a Penn State blog and see how delusional some of these people are - proclaiming that the Freeh report was a fabrication, there was no real evidence provided against Paterno, he wasn't considered a deity at State College, etc.
Also, the Big Ten is apparently deliberating as we speak regarding possible further sanctions by the conference. Kicking them out was discussed, but is apparently now off the table...I'm betting a loss of network revenues (with those revenues being directed towards child abuse prevention) and a rather lengthy probationary period.
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 10:04am
It takes him out of the record books and the Paterno fans who still think he did nothing wrong and should have never been fired can no longer claim he was the all time wins leader (but they will, I'm sure). That being said, the rest of the country will filter Paterno's legacy through the lens of the Sandusky scandal while Penn State fans will filter it through the lens of "JoePa was screwed by the media, public, and NCAA and he did nothing wrong." Go find a Penn State blog and see how delusional some of these people are - proclaiming that the Freeh report was a fabrication, there was no real evidence provided against Paterno, he wasn't considered a deity at State College, etc.
... if they are as delusional as you say (and I don't doubt) "officially" taking him out of the record book will change nothing. They will still think exactly what they think now and claim exactly what they claim now. Again, it has all filtered down to punishing the current players, past players, and coaches who did nothing wrong.
It is no skin off my ass either way what happens to Penn State... just think it sucks for those who got caught in the crossfire.
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 10:10am
It is no skin off my ass either way what happens to Penn State... just think it sucks for those who got caught in the crossfire.
Something similar happening here-All training funds here are on hold because of the GSA scandal. God help if it has the term "conference."
Nemesis
07-23-2012, 10:27am
"There is incredible interest in what will happen to Penn State football," Ray said at the news conference. "But the fundamental chapter of this horrific story should focus on the innocent children and and the powerful people who let them down."
It doesn't say who said this, but it's hard to believe that statement when:
Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period, the release said.
Not everybody on the Penn State football team goes pro.
Tossin
07-23-2012, 11:20am
Hell they are lucky they still have a program. It would have served the hole institution right to be banned for good. The cover up of all of these azz clowns to save a football program at the sake of abused kids is just absurd.
That could still happen. It's doubtful, but if the Dept of Ed decides to impose sanctions because of Cleary Act violations (and a lack of Penn State to even put in place processes required by the Cleary Act), it could cause Penn State to go under. They could lose accreditation and students who have Pell Grants or Federally funded student loans could be barred from using those funds at Penn State. I doubt it will go that far, honestly.
I'm really torn on the NCAA ruling. I don't really see the jurisdiction they have to do this, but something needed done. Does the punishment fit the crime? I'm not sure. Yes, it's harsh. Yes, it affects people who had nothing at all to do with the horrific crimes that were perpetrated. Yes, it does little to ease what the kids went through who were molested.
The question that keeps going through my head is, how exactly does one punish an institution where (presumably) all that were involved with the crime/infraction are gone and either dead or facing criminal charges?
In the long run, I doubt that the sanctions will have the desired impact. Many people do not think rationally when they are concerned about covering their butts. I hope we never see anything as horrific as this again, but there will be cover-ups on various other infractions.
Vette40th
07-23-2012, 11:22am
Minor fines in my opinion. But, it wasnt the students who did any of this, so the wins, even though meant to tarnish the coach, means nothing.
The monetary value will be made up very quickly through increased tuition, or something. Most people going to Penn state are oblivious to any of this.
And the NCAA is another topic all by itself...
NEVRL8T
07-23-2012, 11:26am
Bobby Bowden is loving every minute of it.
Bobby Bowden is loving every minute of it.
Fffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!
Am I the only one that doesn't see the point in punishing the entire school and the students?
not at all.
violations took place in the athletic dept, let them not play (and generate revenue) for a few years, let the guilty pay up in terms of money and prison time. let the innocent players continue their education, whether or not they play another down (in fact, this is an option for players), or transfer to another school and keep playing (also an option).
reclaim paterno's ill gotten paychecks, revoke his pension, remove his name from campus.
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 1:40pm
Am I the only one that doesn't see the point in punishing the entire school and the students?
Who do you think gave Paterno the power to do the things he did? When a past AD asked for him to leave, he said no. What other coach could say "No-you can't fire me?"
The alumni and student body gave Paterno his power. This is why the ENTIRE community has to be punished. Why would ANYONE defer to Paterno for Sandusky unless he had absolute power?
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 1:48pm
Do you really think all the alumni and the whole student body knew about this? :confused5: Do you think any of them knew about this?
I mean, I haven't been following this, but from what I remember this was pretty well-hidden with the exception of a couple people...
AGAIN (for the attention span challenged) It's not about WHO KNEW WHAT. It's about a totalitarian CULTURE that allowed for this to happen. Think Jim Jones, etc... it's hero worship that allows a mere coach to exceed the AD and college president in power.
some fault falls upon the shoulders of the admin (president) and the AD (athletic director). sounds like paterno had both of them cowed, when he served at their pleasure, and should have been let go many years ago. when the coach gets bigger than the institution, you have some problems waiting.
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 1:55pm
Good- NCAA has been far to lenient and forgiving to many programs.
don't celebrate yet. Many times, NCAA sanctions are reduced after an appeals process...
don't celebrate yet. Many times, NCAA sanctions are reduced after an appeals process...
They didn't follow their own processes to assess the penalties...who's to say they'll allow an appeal?
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 2:03pm
AGAIN.. It's not about WHO KNEW WHAT. It's about a totalitarian CULTURE that allowed for this to happen. Think Jim Jones, etc... it's hero worship that allows a mere coach to exceed the AD and college president in power.
http://www.tim-yvonne.com/gif/bell1.gif
Animal House (7/10) Movie CLIP - Deltas on Trial (1978) HD - YouTube
don't celebrate yet. Many times, NCAA sanctions are reduced after an appeals process...
It's a consent decree. The university has already consented to the punishment.
Equating the brainwashed of Jones Town to ALL of the Penn State students and alumni is a HUGE stretch. :yesnod:
It's not like they rioted after JoePa was fired...oh wait. While I get what you're saying, I think Vator was getting at blind loyalty and obsession, which is there. It only takes five minutes of reading the comments at a Penn State blog to realize that a lot of these people to realize the power that Paterno had over the community. I'm not saying it raises to the level of Jones Town or to a truly destructive level, but it was and still is there.
One of the only things I wholehearted agree with NCAA on was the centralization of a compliance from the Freeh Report. They were supposed to do this already, but for whatever reason decided against it.
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 2:30pm
And let's keep it rolling. Let's hold ALL college sports fans to blame. If it wasn't for them there would be $$$ to gain.
Wait, we have to hold the NFL, the team owners and it's fans accountable too! Because if there wasn't an NFL then there wouldn't be a job for the football players to go to and thus limit the desire to play the game in college.
Yea we can pretty much hold the majority of the country to blame using your logic. Awesome! :hurray:
So what about my logic is flawed ?
In 2008, due to a litany of football players' off-the-field legal problems, including 46 Penn State football players having faced 163 criminal charges according to an ESPN analysis of Pennsylvania court records and reports dating to 2002,[20] ESPN questioned Joe Paterno's and the university's control over the Penn State football program by producing and airing an ESPN's Outside the Lines feature covering the subject.[21] Paterno was criticized for his response dismissing the allegations as a "witch hunt", and chiding reporters for asking about problems.[22]
Checks and balances. Institutional control. Even in 2008 he was dismissing any allegations of wrongdoing by his precious football team.
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 2:42pm
It's a consent decree. The university has already consented to the punishment.
thanks !
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 2:44pm
Please clearly show how this is an indictment of EVERY SINGLE Penn State student and alumni. Every single one. :bigears:
Well since you are taking the LITERAL approach-Name all the Alumni and students that AREN'T brainwashed. :lol:
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 2:47pm
Uh, no.
Uh, yes.
http://sumagazine.syr.edu/archive/summer04/alumnijournal/images/bell.gif
Am I the only one that doesn't see the point in punishing the entire school and the students?
:iagree:
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 3:12pm
So if we get nuked because we let the president have the power to do what he wants and he screws up...you'd be okay with that?
Same kinda thing. :lol:
Hey, I'm running out of BIG BELLS to post...
http://my.tbaytel.net/jmehagan/parks/hillcrest/hillcrestbell.jpg
sometimes, life says you have to "make an example" during a situation. Since it's impossible to determine each & every person at Penn State that had some knowledge of this Sandusky thing... and to punish just them, you do the next best thing.
Something has to be done.
Question, are the current players punishments tied to being at Penn State; I mean... are they sanctioned - even if they leave and go to another school to play sports?
If that's the case, then I'm not liking that part of the penalty.
Why punish those who did nothing wrong?
I'm just gonna butt out now...clearly I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this.
That's the sad thing that it comes down to. The current players did nothing wrong but get to suffer the consequences. The current student body, professors, faculty, all suffer the consequences but did nothing wrong. It's kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But, I don't see a real feasible way to punish the program without the collateral damage. ANYONE who knew what was going on but decided not to act or decided to cover it up, should face criminal charges. There would be some justice in that at least. This isn't like covering up unethical recruiting practices, kids' lives are ruined because of this scumbag and the people who looked the other way :mad:
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 3:16pm
I don't see a real feasible way to punish the program without the collateral damage.
that's kinda what I was trying to say; I just don't have access to those type of words... :leaving:
:)
that's kinda what I was trying to say; I just don't have access to those type of words... :leaving:
:)
:lol: But you do have access to all the tech news and nerdy tech slims :cert::cert:
Hey, I'm running out of BIG BELLS to post...
http://my.tbaytel.net/jmehagan/parks/hillcrest/hillcrestbell.jpg
sometimes, life says you have to "make an example" during a situation. Since it's impossible to determine each & every person at Penn State that had some knowledge of this Sandusky thing... and to punish just them, you do the next best thing.
Something has to be done.
Question, are the current players punishments tied to being at Penn State; I mean... are they sanctioned - even if they leave and go to another school to play sports?
If that's the case, then I'm not liking that part of the penalty.
Not entirely sure, but I would imagine if a player were to transfer, he would be eligible for bowls, etc.
already announced that current players can stay and finish their degree, can play or not play, doesn't make any difference to their scholarships; they can also transfer elsewhere and play this year, no waiting as is normal.
Cybercowboy
07-23-2012, 3:29pm
Taking away their wins was wrong, but the rest of the sanctions are understandable.
Since when is a CRIMINAL matter the responsibility of the NCAA? The only thing that should have been done to anyone is Sandusky and the people that covered it up. The ones covering it up should have been charged as accessories to the crimes and given the same punishment accessories get. This was not a crime involving sports. The guilty just happened to work in sports. When a Boy Scout leader is found guilty of molesting kids, do they fine the entire Boy Scout Troop? When a Catholic Priest is found guilty of molesting little boys, do they fine the entire church?
Since when is a CRIMINAL matter the responsibility of the NCAA? The only thing that should have been done to anyone is Sandusky and the people that covered it up. The ones covering it up should have been charged as accessories to the crimes and given the same punishment accessories get. This was not a crime involving sports. The guilty just happened to work in sports. When a Boy Scout leader is found guilty of molesting kids, do they fine the entire Boy Scout Troop? When a Catholic Priest is found guilty of molesting little boys, do they fine the entire church?
the ncaa expects you to exercise control over your operations. you are supposed to know what is going on in all corners of your little universe. and if you don't know, well, you in deep trouble.
the presidents all get together and pass all these rules, and then are surprised when they are used against them. duh.
there is no logical reason why the football coach is paid more then the english dept head nor more than the president. cut the pay and benefits, less reason to lie and cheat and steal.
'here's your letter jacket and a gameball, thanks for playing football son.'
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 3:39pm
ANYONE that knew what was going on but decided not to act or decided to cover it up should face criminal charges.
:iagree:
In my opinion this is not a football team matter and barely a school matter. This is a case of individual people who broke the law.
The NCAA should punish football programs for violations against the rules of football, recruiting violations, etc. This is in a completely different category. It has nothing to do with the NCAA and everything to do with CRIMINALS who need to be punished accordingly.
If a coach gets a DUI should the program be punished? The scale is different but the principle is the same. Criminal offense vs. NCAA rules violation.
For those who say it is to punish the "culture" of Penn State, that is a garbage argument. If they want to punish the culture, they better hand out fines to pretty much every single top tier school out there as well as to the NCAA itself. Modern college football is about money. Period.
Every one of the pathetic asswipes involved in this needs to be punished accordingly but IMO it is exactly that... individuals who broke the law. It is a criminal matter that should be handled as such and is not and should not be the jurisdiction of the NCAA.
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 3:41pm
there is no logical reason why the football coach is paid more then the english dept head nor more than the president.
The logical reason is that the football program brings exponentially more revenue than the English department.
I am not at all saying it is right... but it is very logical.
That's the sad thing that it comes down to. The current players did nothing wrong but get to suffer the consequences. The current student body, professors, faculty, all suffer the consequences but did nothing wrong. It's kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But, I don't see a real feasible way to punish the program without the collateral damage. ANYONE who knew what was going on but decided not to act or decided to cover it up, should face criminal charges. There would be some justice in that at least. This isn't like covering up unethical recruiting practices, kids' lives are ruined because of this scumbag and the people who looked the other way :mad:
While I understand the impact a successful football program has on a university in the way of visibility, I wonder how much real impact this will have on a faculty member's ability to teach and bring in grant money to do research along with the student's ability to learn and get a degree...it's not like the NCAA pulled grant funding, PSU's endowment (which stands at 1.75 Billion), or any other funding necessary to run the academic side of things. Yes, there will be an financial impact on academics and the average student, I just wonder how much it actually will be. I doubt the NIH, NSF, etc., will take what the NCAA did into account when they are determining grant funding for projects.
The only other applicable comparison is, unfortunately SMU - how big of a hit did the school take on the academic side of things after the NCAA lowered the boom?
The logical reason is that the football program brings exponentially more revenue than the English department.
I am not at all saying it is right... but it is very logical.
maybe time for these presidents to take another look at their campus and set priorities.
when a little old man who was way beyond his prime can tell the president and AD to F-off, it's time for the little old man to go home.
Burro (He/Haw)
07-23-2012, 3:45pm
It's about a totalitarian CULTURE that allowed for this to happen. Think Jim Jones, etc... it's hero worship that allows a mere coach to exceed the AD and college president in power
In my opinion, this sums it up nicely.
maybe time for these presidents to take another look at their campus and set priorities.
when a little old man who was way beyond his prime can tell the president and AD to F-off, it's time for the little old man to go home.
I understand and agree with what you're saying, but unless every school decides to do it (or is forced to by the NCAA), it ain't going to happen.
Besides, we can't have Alabama players making more than the coach. That would be wrong.:D
as prior pro league strikes have shown, the lack of games isn't missed that much by the public at large. likewise, if there were no semi-pro college football one year, we'd all get along somehow.
RedLS1GTO
07-23-2012, 4:03pm
It's about a totalitarian CULTURE that allowed for this to happen. Think Jim Jones, etc... it's hero worship that allows a mere coach to exceed the AD and college president in power.
This isn't a culture exclusive to Penn State. Not even close. I would venture to say that it exists in the vast majority of top tier football schools.
Punishing them for the "culture" that exists everywhere and is perpetuated in large part by the NCAA itself is ridiculous. Thinking this type of culture is somehow exclusive to Penn State is even more ridiculous. They aren't punishing the culture. They are sacrificing Penn State to try to appease the masses.
NCC-1701
07-23-2012, 4:07pm
History is history he is still the winning-est coach no matter what a bunch of idiots say. I'm sure Bobby Bowden does not want number 1 this way
Mike Mercury
07-23-2012, 4:09pm
already announced that current players can stay and finish their degree, can play or not play, doesn't make any difference to their scholarships; they can also transfer elsewhere and play this year, no waiting as is normal.
so then this part of the punishment - mainly punishes the school.
I understand and agree with what you're saying, but unless every school decides to do it (or is forced to by the NCAA), it ain't going to happen.
Besides, we can't have Alabama players making more than the coach. That would be wrong.:DHey now you were ok up to this point.:D:lol:
We were talking Ped U not Bama:cert:
Hey now you were ok up to this point.:D:lol:
We were talking Ped U not Bama:cert:
Sorry, I was just going with the highest paid players in NCAA to make a point... :D:leaving:
mrvette
07-23-2012, 4:29pm
the ncaa expects you to exercise control over your operations. you are supposed to know what is going on in all corners of your little universe. and if you don't know, well, you in deep trouble.
the presidents all get together and pass all these rules, and then are surprised when they are used against them. duh.
there is no logical reason why the football coach is paid more then the english dept head nor more than the president. cut the pay and benefits, less reason to lie and cheat and steal.
'here's your letter jacket and a gameball, thanks for playing football son.'
Englush dept, yeh right, how about we pay the HARD science guys and ENGINEERING guys more.....screw the Englush dept.....teaching 'dramatic poetry' and other such useless crap.....
But on the other hand, I not much of a 'sports supporter' in any venue....
:kick::issues:
VatorMan
07-23-2012, 4:33pm
This isn't a culture exclusive to Penn State. Not even close. I would venture to say that it exists in the vast majority of top tier football schools.
Punishing them for the "culture" that exists everywhere and is perpetuated in large part by the NCAA itself is ridiculous. Thinking this type of culture is somehow exclusive to Penn State is even more ridiculous. They aren't punishing the culture. They are sacrificing Penn State to try to appease the masses.
Point taken and I agree. Maybe this will at least open people's eyes to their "heros". If JoePa can do it - anyone can.
Englush dept, yeh right, how about we pay the HARD science guys and ENGINEERING guys more.....screw the Englush dept.....teaching 'dramatic poetry' and other such useless crap.....
But on the other hand, I not much of a 'sports supporter' in any venue....
:kick::issues:
You arguing against English teachers is like Sandusky arguing against child protection laws.
Sorry, I was just going with the highest paid players in NCAA to make a point... :D:leaving:Nice:D:lol:
Should have received the death sentence!
Burro (He/Haw)
07-23-2012, 5:48pm
.teaching 'dramatic poetry' and other such useless crap....
Bullshit Gene. If someone wants to make their living writing dramatic poetry, that absolutely none of your business. As long as the pay their bill's, it's really none of anyone else's concern.
FasterTraffic
07-23-2012, 9:16pm
That's the sad thing that it comes down to. The current players did nothing wrong but get to suffer the consequences. The current student body, professors, faculty, all suffer the consequences but did nothing wrong. It's kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. ... . ANYONE who knew what was going on but decided not to act or decided to cover it up, should face criminal charges. There would be some justice in that at least. This isn't like covering up unethical recruiting practices, kids' lives are ruined because of this scumbag and the people who looked the other way :mad:
:iagree:
That's how I see it. I don't see the point of vacating wins when winning games had nothing to do with the crime. As someone pointed out earlier, you do that for recruiting violations or supplying players with steroids, etc.
An organization that tolerates criminal activity (especially sexual abuse) does so because of a failure of leadership. So, punish the leadership. Fire the university president, vice-president, athletic director, assistant to the AD, etc. Terminate them for cause, not a forced retirement, so they forfeit all retirement benefits (if contractually possible). You rename any buildings named after them, take down the statues and plaques. Paterno's legacy is already permanently stained, wins or no wins.
You don't, however, tell a whole lot of athletes they didn't win the games they won because (unbeknownst to most of the world) the assistant coach was raping kids in his spare time.
JRD77VET
07-23-2012, 9:22pm
Thoughts?
Besides punishing many for the actions of a few :rolleyes:, who gets the $60 million that they fined Penn State?
NCCA running short of funds and this was an easy way to fill the coffers again? :kick:
Besides punishing many for the actions of a few :rolleyes:, who gets the $60 million that they fined Penn State?
NCCA running short of funds and this was an easy way to fill the coffers again? :kick:
It goes into a trust that will be given to groups working to prevent child abuse or aiding abuse victims.
Vette40th
07-23-2012, 9:55pm
It goes into a trust that will be given to groups working to prevent child abuse or aiding abuse victims.
But Penn state cant say who gets to use it, correct?
But Penn state cant say who gets to use it, correct?
I think the NCAA will have control over who gets it.
Fasglas
07-23-2012, 11:40pm
It makes total sense to me. It weakens their program. The good up and coming players will find scholorships elsewhere; it's just another incentive to avoid that school's sports programs like the plague.
Well said.
I find all this crying and handwringing for the "innocent victims" of the sanctions somewhat hollow. How about the REAL victims? How about the objects of Sandusky's "affections""?"
The PSU Creamery had an ice cream item called the SANDUSKY BLITZ. Oh yeah, It was quite the joke. Nobody doubted the symbolism.
OK, PSU...keep laughing. You ALL knew what was going on.
Too bad you can't be put out of business, entirely.
RedLS1GTO
07-24-2012, 6:49am
The PSU Creamery had an ice cream item called the SANDUSKY BLITZ. Oh yeah, It was quite the joke. Nobody doubted the symbolism.
OK, PSU...keep laughing. You ALL knew what was going on.
...and on the other end of the spectrum from those who don't think Paterno did anything wrong, you have this. You do realize that "Blitz" is a football term and until this insanity, Sandusky was 1 of the most well known defensive coordinators in the history of college football, right?
Just to clarify, are you actually saying that the entire Penn State University, down to the local f**king ice cream shop was a part of some giant secret conspiracy to protect a child molester??
Wow.
Mike Mercury
07-24-2012, 7:53am
Bullshit Gene. If someone wants to make their living writing dramatic poetry, that absolutely none of your business. As long as the pay their bill's, it's really none of anyone else's concern.
I don't think he was referring to those that actually write for a living; it was directed more towards those in public universities that are paid to teach that particular craft... while being subsidized by taxpayers.
yeah that mentality got us Obamacare.
Didn't know you were a closet Obama supporter.
did you forget to take your meds this morning? the opposite of what I stated would be "nothing should be done about Penn State's problem"
:confused:
mrvette
07-24-2012, 7:53am
Bullshit Gene. If someone wants to make their living writing dramatic poetry, that absolutely none of your business. As long as the pay their bill's, it's really none of anyone else's concern.
IT DAMN SURE IS WHEN MY TAX MONEY GOES TO SUPPORT THAT TYPE OF USELESS LIBERAL ARTS SHIT>>>>>
I have said this a million times before, but colleges should be about HARD science, engineering, business, finance, economics,
want to study philosophy, pay your own way NOT with taxpayers footing the bill for all those useless buildings and overhead.....
paying professors 100k+/year to teach that drivel.....WTF??
:sadangel::seasix:
Bingo Fuel
07-24-2012, 8:37am
What, exactly, does this have to do with punishing all the people (probably 99.X% of the school) that had nothing to do with this at all? Playing for peoples' heartstrings isn't a good way to make your case in an argument.
Something akin to a scorched earth punishment is the only way to
preserve the perceived integrity of an entertainment industry that
generates Billions.
Where large sums of money are concerned, those that are affiliated will
react severely if you threaten to step on their air hose.
Fasglas
07-24-2012, 9:02am
...and on the other end of the spectrum from those who don't think Paterno did anything wrong, you have this. You do realize that "Blitz" is a football term and until this insanity, Sandusky was 1 of the most well known defensive coordinators in the history of college football, right?
Just to clarify, are you actually saying that the entire Penn State University, down to the local f**king ice cream shop was a part of some giant secret conspiracy to protect a child molester??
Wow.
You can, of course, describe the "Sandusky Blitz", right??
"Giant secret conspiracy/coverup"? Not at all..
I don't believe Sandusky's preferences were "secret" at all..
FasterTraffic
07-24-2012, 9:21am
You can, of course, describe the "Sandusky Blitz", right??
"Giant secret conspiracy/coverup"? Not at all..
I don't believe Sandusky's preferences were "secret" at all..
Unless the PSU Creamery had "Molester Mondays" where you get a free cone if you bring a kid under age 10, you'll be hard-pressed to convince me Sandusky's crimes were common knowledge throughout the entire university.
RedLS1GTO
07-24-2012, 9:24am
You can, of course, describe the "Sandusky Blitz", right??
"Giant secret conspiracy/coverup"? Not at all..
I don't believe Sandusky's preferences were "secret" at all..
They also have a flavor called "Peachy Paterno" and a dozen other flavors named after notable Penn State personalities. What does that have to do with anything?
OK, PSU...keep laughing. You ALL knew what was going on.
Really? You are really saying that all of the approximately 9,000 person faculty, almost 100,000 students who have passed through there in the last 10 years, as well as the rest of the hundreds of thousands of PSU fans who weren't students all the way down to the local ice cream shop knew that Jerry Sandusky was a child molester and decided to just let it go so they could protect the football team somehow?
You can't be serious.
Joecooool
07-24-2012, 9:40am
I'm just happy that the story broke while Paterno was still alive so he knew his reputation was shot and that he would forever be associateed with this shame.
Joecooool
07-24-2012, 9:43am
IT DAMN SURE IS WHEN MY TAX MONEY GOES TO SUPPORT THAT TYPE OF USELESS LIBERAL ARTS SHIT>>>>>
I have said this a million times before, but colleges should be about HARD science, engineering, business, finance, economics,
want to study philosophy, pay your own way NOT with taxpayers footing the bill for all those useless buildings and overhead.....
paying professors 100k+/year to teach that drivel.....WTF??
:sadangel::seasix:A science degree is a liberal arts degree.
You can also get a liberal arts degree in math, biology, and astronomy.
jaxgator
07-24-2012, 9:58am
I'm just happy that the story broke while Paterno was still alive so he knew his reputation was shot and that he would forever be associateed with this shame.
I have been wondering if ol' Joe took his own life so that he didn't have to face all of this. I know he was ancient but the timing sure did seem weird to me.
G8rDMD
07-24-2012, 10:09am
I have been wondering if ol' Joe took his own life so that he didn't have to face all of this. I know he was ancient but the timing sure did seem weird to me.
I don't think he took his own life, but I am positive the stress of the situation contributed to his rapid decline. We will never know for sure though...
Tossin
07-24-2012, 10:36am
Paterno isn't dead. He's in Argentina living with Hitler and Elvis. :leaving:
kylebuck
07-24-2012, 10:37am
I have been wondering if ol' Joe took his own life so that he didn't have to face all of this. I know he was ancient but the timing sure did seem weird to me.
Only time on earth that cancer was the better way out.
Fasglas
07-24-2012, 10:43am
I'm just happy that the story broke while Paterno was still alive so he knew his reputation was shot and that he would forever be associateed with this shame.
Been a long time since I've found myself in agreement with you, but you've hit the nail squarely on the head. :seasix:
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