Metal shavings on spark plug

[Montehall]

http://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/off-topic/30313-metal-shavings-spark-plug.html

[PLRX]

I will say this; metal shavings dont belong in the cylinder. If I had metal shavings in my 383 I would say it time for the 396 build up.

[drmrman]

Agree with Pete.... Metal in the cylinders means major problem. Because what's failing will most likely destroy your piston rings and cylinder walls next if what is failing doesn't break first. Sounds like a tear down rebuild time to me!

[Taurus]

I will say this; metal shavings dont belong in the cylinder. If I had metal shavings in my 383 I would say it time for the 396 build up.

I have to agree. There is definitely something wrong in at least that one cylinder, just a matter of time. If the ceramic potion of your plug is pasty white with an ash like texture as well then you're running too hot due to a lean condition which is causing portions of your piston to melt and break off.

Only "good" scenario is that the spark plug was cross threaded when installed and the shavings fell into the head. Better chance of a piston problem though.

[Montehall]

I have to agree. There is definitely something wrong in at least that one cylinder, just a matter of time. If the ceramic potion of your plug is pasty white with an ash like texture as well then you're running too hot due to a lean condition which is causing portions of your piston to melt and break off.

Only "good" scenario is that the spark plug was cross threaded when installed and the shavings fell into the head. Better chance of a piston problem though.
Hmmm. Definetly not cross threaded.
Ill have see what a compression test reveals

[Sweet 90]

I went to post my current issue with my C4 on CF's C4 gen. I started a new thread, and just linked in my post here on vbot and simply asked if anyonbe else had input.

Then I realized what I was doing, and canceled it.

Could have been good, though.

I almost made a post in corvette forums C4 section. In that post, I linked to my thread here on VBOT and asked for some more advice.
Almost.
Wow man! Do you think we are all stupid here?

[Montehall]

not at all

but ther are some people over there that I have met and would like thier input as well.

[Frizlefrak]

Monte....Jon said it all. If the plug isn't crossthreaded, it's time for exploratory surgery....and I don't think you're gonna like what you find. The metal shavings are either coming from the piston, cylinder wall, or head. It's possible you have an oil gallery plugged and that the valve guide is starving for oil....thus wearing it down and depositing the remnants on your plug. That's the best case scenario.

I don't think I have to tell you what the worst case scenario is. Sorry to be the harbinger of doom, but.....

Let us know what you find out. :cert:

[Sweet 90]

not at all

but ther are some people over there that I have met and would like thier input as well.

Oh sorry man, I didn't realize you were talking about CF. I took it that you were talking about the Barn. My apologies bro:cert:

[PLRX]

not at all

but ther are some people over there that I have met and would like thier input as well.

If you are looking for The One to tell you "thats normal" you may be on denial.

The minimum would be to do a compression check and have your oil analyzed.

Blackstone Labs (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/)

Blackstone sends out free kits for you to send a sample of your oil and you get the results back.

[RedLS1GTO]

The minimum would be to do a compression check and have your oil analyzed.

Blackstone Labs (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/)

Blackstone sends out free kits for you to send a sample of your oil and you get the results back.

I was just going to say the same thing... it is amazing what these guys can find.

At minimum I'd agree with Friz and say pull the head and see what you find. With that many shavings in a single cylinder it will probably be pretty evident.

Have you looked in your oil to see if you are getting obvious shavings out of the bottom end as well?

[Montehall]

I was just going to say the same thing... it is amazing what these guys can find.

At minimum I'd agree with Friz and say pull the head and see what you find. With that many shavings in a single cylinder it will probably be pretty evident.

Have you looked in your oil to see if you are getting obvious shavings out of the bottom end as well?
The oil still looks brand new... Its only 200 miles old, though

[nutz4c4]

Gotta agree with Taurus and Friz...Looks like piston damage from running lean...

[Montehall]

So would a compression test be worth anything?

[nutz4c4]

Wouldn't hurt but the results could be misleadeing...You said there is only 200 hundred miles on the new motor right?

[Montehall]

Wouldn't hurt but the results could be misleadeing...You said there is only 200 hundred miles on the new motor right?
What? No... The oil is 200 miles old, the engine is 100k

[nutz4c4]

What? No... The oil is 200 miles old, the engine is 100k

OK maybe I missed something ....The picture of the plug is still indicitive of a lean condition... Sorry but the shavings are possibly pieces of the piston top.
Best to pull the heads and have a look or use a borescope....

[mike100]

OK maybe I missed something ....The picture of the plug is still indicitive of a lean condition... Sorry but the shavings are possibly pieces of the piston top.
Best to pull the heads and have a look or use a borescope....

Or you could just wait for it to break...much easier.

could be valve train bits coming down the valve guide...does it burn a lot of oil?

[Montehall]

Or you could just wait for it to break...much easier.

could be valve train bits coming down the valve guide...does it burn a lot of oil?
dunno... I've only put about 200 miles in it.

[Taurus]

So would a compression test be worth anything?

That's really only going to tell you if the rings are good. I'm betting it's a piston issue, compression test won't tell you anything about that. If it were rings you would be seeing oil on the plug and smoke out the exhaust. It's a piston.

[Montehall]

Funny thing. I was out playing on it, and it started, ran for a second, but died... Which is further than I've been.
Normally I have to pour gas straight down the carb, but this time it turn key started. But I also pumped the tank out a few days ago. So I need to add gas and see.

If it catastrophically fails, then I'm back at square on with an engine rebuild/crate engine

[RedLS1GTO]

If it catastrophically fails, then I'm back at square on with an engine rebuild/crate engine

With the shavings that I'm seeing... you aren't far at all from something catastrophic. On the same note, if you are seeing that in 1 cylinder, you could very easily have some really ugly things in other places.

I would say that the best option at this point would be to bite the bullet, pull the heads and see what you have. You might be able to save a good portion of it and save a load of $$ in the end compared to a full swap when it goes ka-boom.

If you are to the point of having the heads off, you can take the time to do it right, get everything back together the way it should be together and come out the other side with a solid engine instead of the gremlins that will almost surely come out of a full swap.

So would a compression test be worth anything?

I think a leak down test would tell a lot more than a compression test in this case... although I do agree that most likely you have a piston issue, a leak down test could help find the issue if it is in the valvetrain.

[SQUIRMIN VERMIN 84]

Have you checked the shavings with a magnet to see if they're aluminum or iron (piston or valve-train/cylinder)?

[nutz4c4]

Have you checked the shavings with a magnet to see if they're aluminum or iron (piston or valve-train/cylinder)?

Now thats good thinkin' ....:seasix:

[Montehall]

no,i already tossed em, too.
If I get it running again, ill pull the plugs and see what I get

[Montehall]

So I had out running last night.
Had some white smoke coming out the exhaust.
Video:
http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Wilson1911/2012-02-26_19-05-17_881.mp4

[mike100]

You may need to borrow or buy tools, but the two things i would try are a leak-down test on the affected side, and secondly, get a radiator pressure checker and see if the cooling system can hold pressure.

gaskets or block/head cracks could be letting a little coolant into the combustion as well.

what does the coolant smell like?

[Montehall]

Ill take a look when I get home... Don't think I ever checked

[Montehall]

Or could it just be all the water in the gas burning off

[Montehall]

You may need to borrow or buy tools, but the two things i would try are a leak-down test on the affected side, and secondly, get a radiator pressure checker and see if the cooling system can hold pressure.

gaskets or block/head cracks could be letting a little coolant into the combustion as well.

what does the coolant smell like?
Coolant is still bright green and full... Smells like antifreeze

[drmrman]

Cant see the vid. But dont confuse white "Smoke" with steam... Remember a by product of combustion is water.

[Montehall]

Cant see the vid. But dont confuse white "Smoke" with steam... Remember a by product of combustion is water.
I do seem to recall that it took a while to actually produce anything out of the tips...

[Montehall]

so... I ran the car today.
started with no smoke/steam

got going for 5 minutes, and smoke/steam started coming out of the passenger side tailpipe only.
I popped the radiator cover, and coolant was pouring out of it. I reached over and gave it some throttle, and the coolant level dropped. more smoke/steam

Then I pulled the oil dipstick, and my oil looks like watery chocolate milk.


damn.

[nutz4c4]

Blown head gasket at the very least....Was the car ever overheated? 84 right? Iron heads are hard to warp. Whats the history on the car...Maybe we're missing something here.

[drmrman]

Not good. Most likely a head gasket. I would not run the car anymore. That thinned out oil can and will cause permanent mechanical engine damage.

When the heads are off inspect cyl walls for any gauling (because of the metal shavings). and inspect pistons. If all seems well. Re install with new gaskets.

If you dont feel like getting that involved or running the risk of there being any other damage. Sounds like a crate engine is the way to go.... :/

[Montehall]

yes and 84. I never overheated it.

history:
Last March, my wife was visiting family in Indiana, and saw the car for sale. She knows I didn't want an 84 because of Crossfire. This one was converted to a Qjet.
The owner was a mechanic, he bought the car for his sister... she died and it sat in a garage for a few years before he got it out and drove it for 8 months, then needed money more than the car. (we had to scrape off the "in loving memory" sticker)

she bought it, and we trailered it here where I've driven it about 5 times in between new problems.
*Throw-out bearing went out (replaced)
*car would die everytime I used the brakes (caused by excessive fuel pressure)
*17psi fuel pump was never removed for the carb conversion (in-line regulator installed)

this is the latest. I hate giving up. The body of the car is pretty straight for having 101K and the interior (minus seats) is in great condition.

[Taurus]

so... I ran the car today.
started with no smoke/steam

got going for 5 minutes, and smoke/steam started coming out of the passenger side tailpipe only.
I popped the radiator cover, and coolant was pouring out of it. I reached over and gave it some throttle, and the coolant level dropped. more smoke/steam

Then I pulled the oil dipstick, and my oil looks like watery chocolate milk.


damn.

Sorry guy, it's toast. If you're lucky it's a head gasket but that would not explain the bits of metal. You've more likely have a damaged block or a cracked head at the very least.

[nutz4c4]

yes and 84. I never overheated it.

history:
Last March, my wife was visiting family in Indiana, and saw the car for sale. She knows I didn't want an 84 because of Crossfire. This one was converted to a Qjet.
The owner was a mechanic, he bought the car for his sister... she died and it sat in a garage for a few years before he got it out and drove it for 8 months, then needed money more than the car. (we had to scrape off the "in loving memory" sticker)

she bought it, and we trailered it here where I've driven it about 5 times in between new problems.
*Throw-out bearing went out (replaced)
*car would die everytime I used the brakes (caused by excessive fuel pressure)
*17psi fuel pump was never removed for the carb conversion (in-line regulator installed)

this is the latest. I hate giving up. The body of the car is pretty straight for having 101K and the interior (minus seats) is in great condition.
OK..Good info here..

Sorry guy, it's toast. If you're lucky it's a head hasket but that would not explain the bits of metal. You've more likely have a damaged block or a cracked head at the very least.

Gotta agree here...Can you do your own work? I think you will want to start with Pressure test ing the cooling system to try to see where the coolant is going...Bottom line is the heads have the come off and checked at a machine shor capable of magnafluxinr the check for cracks. Then be checked for warping...Sorry for the bad news...

[Montehall]

On the plus side: sbc's are cheap

[Montehall]

or maybe a Turbo-diesel vette :D

seriously though.. I'm going to take a gander at the gasket, but there is no way I'm doing an engine swap.
first: I don't have the facilities or tools to do it.
second: there is nothing else in that car that works the way it should... except the headlights, horn, and radio.

[Montehall]

so what magical tricks do I need to know for a head removal?

[nutz4c4]

so what magical tricks do I need to know for a head removal?

Righty tighty,Lefty loosey...

[Montehall]

Righty tighty,Lefty loosey...
thanks

[mike100]

the book tells you what the torques are etc, just don't forget to use sealant on the head bolt threads because they go into the water jacket.

The next thing is if you know how to time a distributor.

The remainder of the work requires grunt work, sweat, and friends bribed with pizza and 12 packs.

May as well just get a valve job and redo the heads if the blocks is still ok.