Pistol Preferences...I'm Shopping For My First.

[Jeff '79]

I'm thinking about the Sig P-250, for it's versatility. Does anyone have one ?
I like the fact that you can change calibers in minutes, w/o any tools. Check out the video in the link. Obviously, I have to try it, as well as some others that have caught my fancy, but so far, it's the Walther PPK, or this....:waiting:
Sig Sauer P250 Compact 40S&W Nitron Finish Contrast Sights $369.00 SHIPS FREE (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1035/products_id/69736/Handguns/Sig+Specials/Sig%20Sauer%20P250%20Compact%2040S/W%20Nitron%20Finish%20Contrast%20Sights/)

[Chris Fowler]

For what usage?

CCW?
Home defense?
Target shooting?
Competition?

[JRD77VET]

First, get a semi auto .22lr. I'd suggest a Ruger MK I / Mk II / MK III or a Browning Buckmark.

You need trigger time to hone your skills. A .22 is inexpensive to shoot and has next to nothing on recoil which means more time to shoot.

Then, after you have a few thousand rounds shot, then go look for a larger caliber pistol. You'll know better what fits well in your hand and what has a better natural sight picture for YOU.

[Jeff '79]

For what usage?

CCW?
Home defense?
Target shooting?
Competition?

Ok Jeff. Why a .22 first ?...I get to shoot pistols occasionally, but I have not put 1000 rounds out combined with them....So far, I have found that my uncle's Walther PPK is the most comfortable, and I am the most accurate with it...Others "kick" too hard, but the PPK is pretty smooth. I find that I can pretty much point & shoot it w/o relying on the sight too heavily....A .22 hu ? I appreciate the advice, and I may just do that....Hell, the ammo is a hell of a lot cheaper too, while "acclimating"...

[JRD77VET]

Ok Jeff. Why a .22 first ?...I get to shoot pistols occasionally, but I have not put 1000 rounds out combined with them....So far, I have found that my uncle's Walther PPK is the most comfortable, and I am the most accurate with it...Others "kick" too hard, but the PPK is pretty smooth. I find that I can pretty much point & shoot it w/o relying on the sight too heavily....A .22 hu ? I appreciate the advice, and I may just do that....Hell, the ammo is a hell of a lot cheaper too, while "acclimating"...

I recommended a .22 first so you'll shoot it a lot ( ammo is cheap and easy to find ) and become a better shot when you upgrade to a larger caliber.

What kind of accuracy are you getting with "point and shoot"? I find it easier to shoot more accurately by aiming at the smallest point I can see ( literally the center of the "X" ring ).

Just for reference, what calibers ( and weapon model if you know ) kick too hard?

[Sea Six]

Can't go wrong with a Glock.

[JRD77VET]

Can't go wrong with a Glock.

If it fits your hand

( they don't fit mine well )

[Jeff '79]

These, for a few examples..... As well as the .44 Magnum, which I won't be getting. I want something in a larger caliber than a .22 for a main CCW, target, and home defense weapon, that is comfortable, and with the least amount of recoil as possible. Not that I can't handle recoil, but why should I, if I don't have to ?

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC03381.jpg
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC03386-1.jpg
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC02950-2.jpg

[Issues]

I would get a .40 or.45 cal if ya want one for ccw and home defence, plenty of knock down power on both and go to a gun range and see what fits you best.

[Defib1961]

I really like all of my XDs.

[Jeff '79]

I would get a .40 or.45 cal if ya want one for ccw and home defence, plenty of knock down power on both and go to a gun range and see what fits you best.

I was thinking 9mm.....Plenty of stopping power with this too, right ?

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC02951.jpg

[Issues]

I was thinking 9mm.....Plenty of stopping power with this too, right ?

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC02951.jpg

9's are high velocity and will go clean through and end up with a stray round into a wall or someone else I allways thought. 40 and 45 hits ya like a sledge hammer. And will definitely drop someone all cracked out on dope.

[Jeff '79]

9's are high velocity and will go clean through and end up with a stray round into a wall or someone else I allways thought. 40 and 45 hits ya like a sledge hammer. And will definitely drop someone all cracked out on dope.

Hmmm, I would think that a hollow point would not go clear through....But I'm just learning .

[JRD77VET]

I was thinking 9mm.....Plenty of stopping power with this too, right ?

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/jeff79/DSC02951.jpg

What you are calling a 9mm is actually a .380 ACP ( also know to a lesser extent as a 9mm kurz )

The 9mm round like what is used by the Luger pictured, is a 9mm diamter by 19 mm case length.

The .380 ACP round is 9mm but has a 17 mm case length.

They are not interchangable.

[Rapid Roger]

These, for a few examples..... As well as the .44 Magnum, which I won't be getting. I want something in a larger caliber than a .22 for a main CCW, target, and home defense weapon, that is comfortable, and with the least amount of recoil as possible. Not that I can't handle recoil, but why should I, if I don't have to ?

Handguns are like tools......A good target gun is probably not a good ccw weapon......A home defense weapon may not be a good CCW choice.Large caliber weapons have recoil and muzzle blast......Live with it and get the best tool for the job which will require more than one gun........:)

[Jeff '79]

Handguns are like tools......A good target gun is probably not a good ccw weapon......A home defense weapon may not be a good CCW choice.Large caliber weapons have recoil and muzzle blast......Live with it and get the best tool for the job which will require more than one gun........:)

The more that I read, the more I think that you are speaking the truth.

[Omega Man]

The heavier the pistol, the less felt recoil. My wife LOVES to shoot my XD45. It is heavier than all of my other pistols but has less recoil than the others due to weight.

Recoil is not a bad thing, but it does take some getting used to or you will get the shakes after only a few rounds at the range.

[JRD77VET]

The more that I read, the more I think that you are speaking the truth.

:iagree:

If you must get something larger than a .22lr, I highly suggest a revolver in .357 magnum. That way you can practice with .38 special ammo and shoot the higher power ammo whenever you want.

~~~~~~~~~

Either I mentioned that 9mm rounds and .380 acp rounds were NOT interchangable yet I just recommended two different rounds for one handgun.

Most semi auto pistols use the end of the case to support ( guage ) the cartridge when it's chambered. A revolver uses the case rim to hold cartridge in place.

That is why you can shoot .38 special ammo in a .357 magnum revolver. :yesnod:

[Issues]

The heavier the pistol, the less felt recoil. My wife LOVES to shoot my XD45. It is heavier than all of my other pistols but has less recoil than the others due to weight.

Recoil is not a bad thing, but it does take some getting used to or you will get the shakes after only a few rounds at the range.

So what's your take on 9mm having enough knock down power v .40 or .45

[Jeff '79]

:iagree:

If you must get something larger than a .22lr, I highly suggest a revolver in .357 magnum. That way you can practice with .38 special ammo and shoot the higher power ammo whenever you want.

~~~~~~~~~

Either I mentioned that 9mm rounds and .380 acp rounds were NOT interchangable yet I just recommended two different rounds for one handgun.

Most semi auto pistols use the end of the case to support ( guage ) the cartridge when it's chambered. A revolver uses the case rim to hold cartridge in place.

That is why you can shoot .38 special ammo in a .357 magnum revolver. :yesnod:

I have shot my cousin's .357 long barrel, and can not hit the broad side of a barn with it. Not with .38 rounds though.

[JRD77VET]

So what's your take on 9mm having enough knock down power v .40 or .45

Shot placement is critical. Another consideration is wound channel. A larger diameter bullet will ( can ) have a greater wound channel size. Less chance of the wound closing on itself.

The entire idea is to end the hostility as quickly as possible. The quicker the bad guy bleeds out, the better.

[Kerrmudgeon]

Ruger makes a convertible .357-9mm revolver. Practice with the 9mm, and mean business with the .357.

[Omega Man]

So what's your take on 9mm having enough knock down power v .40 or .45

I would prefer a .40 or .45. I have a Glock 23 and 27 in .40, and a G19 and Ruger LC9 in 9MM.


Any of these are good enough for protection. Shot placement is more important that caliber. Her problem was in the warmer months, she had a problem not printing with the thicker pistols.

The LC9 is much thinner, and she carries it just fine. It is better for her to have an easier pistol that she will always carry than a larger caliber that she might chose to leave at home (depending on what she is wearing).

I need to dig up some 9mm rounds and post some pics.

[Omega Man]

Shot placement is critical. Another consideration is wound channel. A larger diameter bullet will ( can ) have a greater wound channel size. Less chance of the wound closing on itself.

The entire idea is to end the hostility as quickly as possible. The quicker the bad guy bleeds out, the better.

See bold. :iagree:

[Issues]

Shot placement is critical. Another consideration is wound channel. A larger diameter bullet will ( can ) have a greater wound channel size. Less chance of the wound closing on itself.

The entire idea is to end the hostility as quickly as possible. The quicker the bad guy bleeds out, the better.

That's why I would want a .40 or. 45 with critical defence rounds. I don't think 9mm is a good choice for that ..

Don't mean to be a thread hyjacker but Jeff needs to keep that on mind.

[Jeff '79]

I would prefer a .40 or .45. I have a Glock 23 and 27 in .40, and a G19 and Ruger LC9 in 9MM.


Any of these are good enough for protection. Shot placement is more important that caliber. Her problem was in the warmer months, she had a problem not printing with the thicker pistols.

The LC9 is much thinner, and she carries it just fine. It is better for her to have an easier pistol that she will always carry than a larger caliber that she might chose to leave at home (depending on what she is wearing).

I need to dig up some 9mm rounds and post some pics.

:waiting: My wife will be getting her first pistol also.... I like the look of the LC9....

[JRD77VET]

I need to dig up some 9mm rounds and post some pics.

No 9mm
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/JRD77VET/Seneca%20Arms%20Co/DCP_3637A.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/JRD77VET/Seneca%20Arms%20Co/DCP_3634A.jpg
.45 acp on left, 10 mm auto on right
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/JRD77VET/Seneca%20Arms%20Co/DCP_3633A.jpg

[RedLS1GTO]

My dad has a P250 as his only pistol... and loves it. Can't go wrong with Sig.

[RedLS1GTO]

I put this in a thread not long ago but it is relevant here...

I take a different route than many here in terms of carry.

I carried a S&W 9mm for the longest time but realized that there were many times that I left it at home because it wasn't concealable in what I was wearing. I love the gun and after almost 8,000 (yes, 8,000) rounds through it I have had exactly 1 stovepipe ejection... and that was the 3rd round ever fired.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/botch1980/Guns/2011-08-06_10-58-41_202.jpg

Now, most of the time I carry a Ruger LCP (.380)

It doesn't have the knock down power of a .45 or even a 9mm, but it packs enough of a punch that 7 rounds should be more than enough to keep you safe through anything other than an all out gang assault. Afterall, protection (not necessarily killing) is the point of carrying, right? With the Hornady self defense rounds, I certainly wouldn't want to be on the other end of it. It is also an accurate little fugger. With rapid fire drills, I have found that I can put all 7 in a paper plate from 12 yards every time.

The best part is that I can carry it ANY time with ANY clothes. It is no bigger than a wallet and light enough that with a pocket holster you can put it in jeans, shorts, even dress pants without even noticing it is there. I find myself carrying way more often than I did with the 9mm or the .45.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/botch1980/Guns/IMG_6036.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/botch1980/Guns/IMG_6028.jpg


Size comparison with the 1911:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/botch1980/Guns/IMG_6030.jpg

More on the 9mm vs. .380 discussion...

I really was hesitant to get the LCP over a 9mm carry, so I did a LOT of research on it. Some of the numbers from a test I found are below:

The first number is Hornady 124-gr. HP/XTP (9mm), the second is Hornady 90-gr.
HP/XTP (.380) fired into ballistic gel.

Velocity (fps): 998, 906
Avg. Upset (in): .405, .406
Avg. Penetration (in): 14.25, 11.25
Wound Vol (in^3): 1.83, 1.46

NOTES: Data is based on bullets recovered after firing three rounds of from each gun into calibrated 10-percent ballistic gelatin at a distance of 20 feet. Average Upset is average frontal diameter of all three bullets recovered for each load listed calculated on the basis of four cross-sectional measurements of each bullet face. Wound Volume is the size of the wound channel in cubic inches calculated for each load by multiplying the average frontal surface area of the recovered bullets by the average depth of penetration. Wound Area is the internal surface area of the wound channel
in square inches calculated for each load by multiplying the average circumference of the recovered bullets by the average depth of penetration.

As would be expected, the 9mm definitely has more penetration, and therefore a larger wound but the .380 still packs a pretty powerful punch in a VERY small size package. The penetration is still plenty to get to vitals and completely incapacitate an attacker. If the LC9 would have fit as comfortably into my pocket as the LCP I would have bought it, but the size tradeoff was worth getting the .380 for the way that I use it.

With that said, I wouldn't ever consider anything smaller than a .380 to carry.

If someone chooses to carry a .45 or some other large pistol, that is their choice and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with them doing it, but I personally believe that the mindset that you have to have to carry a large caliber gun to protect yourself is wrong.

[wwomanC6]

My dad has a P250 as his only pistol... and loves it. Can't go wrong with Sig.

The only thing I don't care for on my P250 is the long trigger pull. I would like something with a quicker trigger!

[RedLS1GTO]

Below is Hornady .380 FTX in ballistic gel from a different test. 10-11 inches of penetration with a .4+" diameter wound is plenty for self defense.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyHandgun/380-Auto-FTX-Gelatin.jpg

The time that a .45 or larger caliber weapon would make a difference is that they give you more room for error with your shot placement.

[Omega Man]

Ok, Here is a 9mm Hollow point. Shot it in water to demonstrate the size once a 9mm hits an object. Top numbers are inches, bottom is centimeters.

9mm WILL work just fine if you put it in the right spot with the right ammo. FMJ ammo is only for killing paper.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/fcb66da9.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/d235cffc.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/41124a0a.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/561ba6b6.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/8424187a.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/b4c700ae.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/df218ef5.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/e5146619.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/ClaymoreEnergy/2d35cf70.jpg

These pics were taken with my War Eagle Z06 approved iphone 4S.

[RedLS1GTO]

The only thing I don't care for on my P250 is the long trigger pull. I would like something with a quicker trigger!

I agree. Dad loves his P250 and is dead nuts accurate with it. I am way worse with it than my S&W or Beretta m9. I guess it all depends on what you get used to. I hate shooting anything that says Glock on it for the same reason.

[Jeff '79]

The only thing I don't care for on my P250 is the long trigger pull. I would like something with a quicker trigger!

There are 3 trigger options for the P-250. Short medium, and long. I wonder if a different size would make a difference, or if it's a travel distance situation.

[wwomanC6]

There are 3 trigger options for the P-250. Short medium, and long. I wonder if a different size would make a difference, or if it's a travel distance situation.

Don't know but will have to look into it!

[RedLS1GTO]

There are 3 trigger options for the P-250. Short medium, and long. I wonder if a different size would make a difference, or if it's a travel distance situation.

Didn't know that either. I bought the P250 for my dad when they first came out. Pretty sure there wasn't an option then. Interesting.

[Omega Man]

I agree. Dad loves his P250 and is dead nuts accurate with it. I am way worse with it than my S&W or Beretta m9. I guess it all depends on what you get used to. I hate shooting anything that says Glock on it for the same reason.

First thing that I did was change out the connector on all of my Glocks. Makes a huge difference.

I personally feel the stock Glock trigger feel is garbage.

[wwomanC6]

I agree. Dad loves his P250 and is dead nuts accurate with it. I am way worse with it than my S&W or Beretta m9. I guess it all depends on what you get used to. I hate shooting anything that says Glock on it for the same reason.

Accurate at close distance here, which is what counts for home defense. The long trigger pull makes it more shaky and less accurate, requiring more concentration on my aim.

[Sea Six]

Jeff, regarding caliber,

A nine is just fine,
A forty's pretty sporty,
But a .45's best at keeping you alive.

[Jeff '79]

Don't know but will have to look into it!

Didn't know that either. I bought the P250 for my dad when they first came out. Pretty sure there wasn't an option then. Interesting.
Check out the video in the link.

Sig Sauer P250 40S&W 14 + 1 Capacity w/Night Sights/Black SHIPS FREE (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52435/Sig+Sauer+P250+40S%26W+14+%2B+1+Capacity+wNight+SightsBlack/)

[Jeff '79]

Jeff, regarding caliber,

A nine is just fine,
A forty's pretty sporty,
But a .45's best at keeping you alive.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, and OM showed proof of, the 9mm with the proper hollow point ammo, will do the job without a problem....Remember...You get more than one try too....:D

[RedLS1GTO]

Jeff, regarding caliber,

A nine is just fine,
A forty's pretty sporty,
But a .45's best at keeping you alive.

But none of them do any good if you leave them sitting at home because they are uncomfortable and too bulky to carry. Can't exactly carry a .45 if you are wearing a pair of gym shorts and a t-shirt for a quick run to the store. Carrying a larger gun is a production. Carrying something like the LCP is no more intrusive than a wallet.

It is all a tradeoff as to what suits your lifestyle and needs.

[Sea Six]

But none of them do any good if you leave them sitting at home because they are uncomfortable and too bulky to carry. Can't exactly carry a .45 if you are wearing a pair of gym shorts and a t-shirt for a quick run to the store. Carrying a larger gun is a production. Carrying something like the LCP is no more intrusive than a wallet.

It is all a tradeoff as to what suits your lifestyle and needs.

Every gun is a trade off :iagree:

The one thing you should never compromise on is to carry a gun you don't shoot well.

[RedLS1GTO]

The one thing you should never compromise on is to carry a gun you don't shoot well.

:iagree: 10000000000%


There are 3 guns that I carry. Usually it is the LCP for the reasons I already gave. If I am wearing something that will conceal it, I will sometimes still carry the 9mm S&W or even the 1911 (rarely). All 3 of them are second nature.

[Jeff '79]

:iagree: 10000000000%


There are 3 guns that I carry. Usually it is the LCP for the reasons I already gave. If I am wearing something that will conceal it, I will sometimes still carry the 9mm S&W or even the 1911 (rarely). All 3 of them are second nature.

How is the "kick" on your LC9 ?...I gotta get my hands on one and check it out....It looks ergonomically well made, a perfect size & caliber, and priced right.:waiting:

[Omega Man]

How is the "kick" on your LC9 ?...I gotta get my hands on one and check it out....It looks ergonomically well made, a perfect size & caliber, and priced right.:waiting:

He has the LCP, I have the LC9 (well my wife does). Recoil is not bad at all. I like it. I like it enough that I will probably be picking up another one for me to carry. It is just a nice small package.

I love my XD, I love my 2 mid size glocks, and I really love my subcompact D27 40 cal, but the size of the LC9 is perfect to conceal with almost any outfit.

I will do some pics tomorrow to compare the sizes.

[themonk]

http://www.sixthseal.com/archive/May2005/popgun_contents.jpg

[RedLS1GTO]

How is the "kick" on your LC9 ?...I gotta get my hands on one and check it out....It looks ergonomically well made, a perfect size & caliber, and priced right.:waiting:

Like OM said, I have the LCP .380, but the kick isn't too terrible considering it's size.

It isn't a gun that I would want to take to a range and shoot a few hundred rounds through, but for the occasional trip it is a decent little gun to shoot.

[RedLS1GTO]

http://www.sixthseal.com/archive/May2005/popgun_contents.jpg

Isn't that what the Canadian Army carries?

[themonk]

Isn't that what the Canadian Army carries?

Ouch......actually our police, we don't live in a violent society, we're above that.

[Jeff '79]

Like OM said, I have the LCP .380, but the kick isn't too terrible considering it's size.

It isn't a gun that I would want to take to a range and shoot a few hundred rounds through, but for the occasional trip it is a decent little gun to shoot.

I'll have my wife try that one too...:cert:

[Flatbush Harry]

If you are an inexperienced shooter and you cannot be persuaded to acquire a .22LR revolver for training and practice, I'd recommend a Ruger GP-100 or S&W 586 or 686 and learn and practice with .38 Spl. Semi-autos have a more complicated manual of arms and you'll want simplicity, low recoil, low cost and reliability no matter what your intended application.

I have been shooting handguns regularly since 1968; during that time, I've fired approximately 250,000 rounds through handguns of all types. I still regard a S&W double action revolver as my go-to gun for personal protection in the field and at home. YMMV, but I doubt it.

Harry
NRA Certified instructor

[Jeff '79]

If you are an inexperienced shooter and you cannot be persuaded to acquire a .22LR revolver for training and practice, I'd recommend a Ruger GP-100 or S&W 586 or 686 and learn and practice with .38 Spl. Semi-autos have a more complicated manual of arms and you'll want simplicity, low recoil, low cost and reliability no matter what your intended application.

I have been shooting handguns regularly since 1968; during that time, I've fired approximately 250,000 rounds through handguns of all types. I still regard a S&W double action revolver as my go-to gun for personal protection in the field and at home. YMMV, but I doubt it.

Harry
NRA Certified instructor

Why not a center fire 9mm ? It's not like I can't become proficient by repetition. I don't want a wheel gun. Damn, you have a lot of experience, so your opinion obviously carries some weight. My tutor was in Nam, and has a gun vault the size of my family room, and all types of weapons to fill it, so like you, he's expert, and will train me at his home range up the street... He actually makes his own competition rifles, as he trusts noone but himself.

[ConstantChange]

If you are an inexperienced shooter and you cannot be persuaded to acquire a .22LR revolver for training and practice.

Harry
NRA Certified instructor

I was going to get a .22LR handgun for practice, but I didn't realize I should get a revolver.

I was talking to my police officer buddy about me learning to shot a handgun. He said "Learn to shot a revolver. If you can shot one of those, you can shot anything."

Before I heard this, I was looking into a Ruger MK III.

[Flatbush Harry]

Why not a center fire 9mm ? It's not like I can't become proficient by repetition. I don't want a wheel gun. Damn, you have a lot of experience, so your opinion obviously carries some weight. My tutor was in Nam, and has a gun vault the size of my family room, and all types of weapons to fill it, so like you, he's expert, and will train me at his home range up the street...

Jeff,

Here's the deal. There are fundamentals to be learned by a novice shooter. They are best learned with a handgun that has little recoil, excellent sights, simplicity, a cheap round to use, as close to total reliability as possible and the least complicated manual of arms so as to maintain focus on the shooting. In my experience, and what I use with students, is a .22 LR revolver...typically a S&W DA revolver or a Ruger Single Six. After safety, trigger control, sight picture, breath control, and follow-through are practiced extensively, then we can focus on other elements of handgun use. At that time, a more complicated firearm, either as to action or caliber makes sense. The issue is not what the instructor can teach but, rather, what the student is ready to learn.

As to a practical handgun, keep in mind that a handgun is a tool. A tool should be purpose-selected based on appropriateness for the intended task and the user's skill sets and experience level, adjusted by prevailing law or regulation. For street carry as a LEO (ca. 1981), my primary carry was a S&W mod 66, .357 magnum revolver worn on the strong side (department mandated) with a Colt Mk IV, see. '70 .45 ACP as a back-up in a cross-draw (allowed, and I took advantage of it). I also carried a S&W mod . 36 in .38spl in an ankle holster as a back-up to my back-up and a sap in my right rear pocket (neither forbidden). After my first exposure to the dangerous end of a revolver by a scumbag in Elizabeth, NJ, I abandoned such pursuits to study finance and Elizabethan poetry, with only the former being more dangerous to one's soul and net worth. The Elizabethan poetry (and a variety of white grape varietals) allowed me to have my way with my wife's virtue...a much more pleasing pursuit than that of enforcing traffic and arcane statutes regarding better living through chemistry.

Based on the above, I seriously recommend novices begin with revolvers...you won't be wondering how to clear a stovepipe in a 9mm semi-auto while some scumbag caves in your skull. In the woods while hunting or fishing, I carry a S&W mod 629 5" .44 Magnum for protection against bears and cougars; in urban settings, I avoid creepy neighborhoods and pack a S&W 686+ with 7 rounds of .357 Mag when I can't. That said, I have studied the law, avoid violence at all costs save my physical well-being and lock my doors and arm my security system.

As a wise Texan taught me once, "There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots". I generalize that wisdom to all of life.

:cert:

Happy new year, bud,

Harry

[NCC-1701]

Ok my 02 after 29 years of police work and thousands upon thousands of rounds fired through different weapons. First off I am bias to the 1911. This has been my primary carry for over 30 years Colts,S&W,H&K's etc. I purchased a Kahr PM45 about a year ago. It is lite very accurate and has a 3" barrel for a CCW weapon and it is double action. For some reason the recoil on this 45 is not much as compared to the heaver 1911"s. This gun gives you versatility of carrying CCW or home protection and it is double action less chance of going off but not impossible. A regular 1911 is semi auto and it is to be carried cocked and locked with one in the chamber This does not phaze me because that is how I have been trained and carrying over the years but for novice people a double action is better for safety reasons. I would stick to a 45 cal round. I mention Kahr because I am impressed with the accuracy and recoil of this gun. A Pm 45 with night sites retails for about 800.00. In the end though you need to test fire all sorts of guns because everyone has different hands to hold it with and what is comfortable to me may not be for you. One more thing stick to a quality maker you do not want issues when your life depends on a bullet going out the barrel.

[Fastguy]

One thing to keep in mind is that this is similar to asking "What kind of car should I buy?"
This whole thread is primarily opinion based on personal preferences.
You listed three uses: CCW, home defense, target range.
There are going to be compromises for any gun that meets all three or even two.

A good CCW like an LC9 is going to be small and light. It will be good at CCW but only OK at home defense due to it being a smaller caliber than you may want. It will lack the grip size, barrel length and sights needed for a good target gun.

A good home defense gun like a 1911 has a nice heavy frame and a full manageable grip.
If its truly for home defense, it should have night sights (Tritium filled front and rear glow in the dark sight dots). These type of sights are not great for target. A full size 1911 is more apt to be left at home due to its size and weight.

A nice target gun never makes a good carry gun or defense gun, even if its set up in a large caliber. A good target gun will have adjustable sights or a scope, lighter springs to compensate for lighter more manageable loads, and a modified single hand grip.

This is why few people own one handgun if they want to do more than one thing with it.

[Fastguy]

Jeff,

Here's the deal. There are fundamentals to be learned by a novice shooter. They are best learned with a handgun that has little recoil, excellent sights, simplicity, a cheap round to use, as close to total reliability as possible and the least complicated manual of arms so as to maintain focus on the shooting. In my experience, and what I use with students, is a .22 LR revolver...typically a S&W DA revolver or a Ruger Single Six. Harry

I think it depends on if they are starting down the path to be a regular shooter, or if its just a "hey I want to try a day of shooting" thing.
Also depends on the personality of the shooter.
I find it is much easier to teach people with a Ruger mark II semi auto. To load a magazine and and pull the slide back is fairly easy to learn. They can concentrate on a short simple trigger pull and the sight picture is easy to maintain.
I find that the visual mechanics of a DA trigger revolving the cylinder, cocking the hammer and finally releasing builds up too much anticipation/anxiety/distraction. The long trigger pull of a DA revolver makes it hard to isolate the trigger finger and people end up using way too much of their hand.
Now if they master a revolver, then yes, shooting a semi is easily adapted.
However, for a first timer or casual shooter, the DA revolver learning curve can be high.
Whenever I take a new shooter to the range, I pack a Ruger 22 semi auto and a S&W DA 22 revolver.
Some people love the revolver and want to use just that gun, others hate it and want to stay with the semi.

[Fastguy]

Don't take the above as a slam on revolvers. My carry gun is a S&W 38spl and my favorite all around gun is my S&W 686+ .357 magnum.

[Jeff '79]

I'll narrow down my objective.

I own renal property, and just want peace of mind.
I want something that is easily concealable.
I am 6'5" and 260lbs., so I have always been able to talk my way out of every situation that I have ever been in, and plan to continue down that path...I will walk, or run away from a potential situation, rather than have to deal with the BS that would follow with the use of deadly force...There are some big mean dogs out there that I wouldn't hesitate to kill if attacked though, but I would do everything in my power to avoid using deadly force on a human. I have no qualms about doing it to protect my life, as a last resort though.
That being said.....I want a carry gun that is small, dependable, and that I can become proficient with at the range..That is not to say that I'm going to competitively "target shoot" with it, rather, just practice with it on targets to become proficient. It will likely sit in a wall safe in my bedroom for home protection if ever needed, or be carried when warranted. I have a shotgun too, so that would not be my only option home protection.
I now understand the "there is a tool for every situation" concept thanks to this thread, but at this point,If you could own just one pistol for my objectives, what would it be ?... Yes, I'll probably buy different tools down the road, but for now.......I'm still listening.

[Fastguy]

Springfield XD in 45. Spend the rest of the money on a case of ammo. Don't practice until you're all in the black, practice until you never miss. (don't practice until you get it right, practice until you never get it wrong).

If you are 6.5/260, you probably have hands that will disqualify most small frame guns. I have a buddy built like you and he can't shoot any of my small frame guns because he has f'ng bear paws for hands.

[73sbVert]

Jeff, for pure simplicity and for what you are looking for (I want a carry gun that is small, dependable, and that I can become proficient with at the range), your best bet is what has been mentioned before.

Get a .357 Magnum revolver and practice with it with .38Special. Much cheaper to practice with, yet almost all of the mechanics are the same. And the reliability of a revolver can't be beat. It will ALWAYS go bang when you need it.

The smaller frame models are easily concealable and the more popular models have lots of aftermarket support (for parts, holsters, etc.)

Me? I LOVE my Steyrs and I always recommend them over any other kind of handgun, but I think that what you want this tool for, simple will be better, and carries a hell of a punch!

hth

[Fastguy]

Get a .357 Magnum revolver and practice with it with .38Special.

I think I am heading to the range to do just that in a little while.
If you do go with a small frame revolver that you want to shoot a lot, I would lean towards a stainless frame and a shrouded hammer vs one of the airlight/polymer frames because they suck to shoot for any length of time.

[Jeff '79]

I think I am heading to the range to do just that in a little while.
If you do go with a small frame revolver that you want to shoot a lot, I would lean towards a stainless frame and a shrouded hammer vs one of the airlight/polymer frames because they suck to shoot for any length of time.

Ya, like the Walther PPK.......It's heavy, and all metal construction. I like that....I'm gonna call my neighbor now, and see what he suggests, and see if he has the Ruger LC9 and LCP, the Sig P250, and the FNP9...He has tons of revolvers, and center fire pistols, so let's see....

[73sbVert]

I think I am heading to the range to do just that in a little while.
If you do go with a small frame revolver that you want to shoot a lot, I would lean towards a stainless frame and a shrouded hammer vs one of the airlight/polymer frames because they suck to shoot for any length of time.

:seasix:

Plus, the lighter frames don't control the weapon nearly as well as the heavier ones, making it suck to shoot any more than just a few rounds.

I love my Keltec PF-9 for carry, but it's a bitch to shoot more than a box of rounds any given day. Even with a shooting glove, still hurts my hand because it's so "snappy". But, always goes bang and shoots the PD ammo I use, no failures on this gun at all.

:cert:

[NCC-1701]

I'll narrow down my objective.

I own renal property, and just want peace of mind.
I want something that is easily concealable.
I am 6'5" and 260lbs., so I have always been able to talk my way out of every situation that I have ever been in, and plan to continue down that path...I will walk, or run away from a potential situation, rather than have to deal with the BS that would follow with the use of deadly force...There are some big mean dogs out there that I wouldn't hesitate to kill if attacked though, but I would do everything in my power to avoid using deadly force on a human. I have no qualms about doing it to protect my life, as a last resort though.
That being said.....I want a carry gun that is small, dependable, and that I can become proficient with at the range..That is not to say that I'm going to competitively "target shoot" with it, rather, just practice with it on targets to become proficient. It will likely sit in a wall safe in my bedroom for home protection if ever needed, or be carried when warranted. I have a shotgun too, so that would not be my only option home protection.
I now understand the "there is a tool for every situation" concept thanks to this thread, but at this point,If you could own just one pistol for my objectives, what would it be ?... Yes, I'll probably buy different tools down the road, but for now.......I'm still listening.

Than stick with a 3 or 3.5" 45cal.:seasix:

[NCC-1701]

Jeff a few more things from experience.


Most gun fights for us are going to be close proximity your not going to take a site picture most probable you will pull it from your holster and fire it single handed pointing at the guy you want to kill or if you are lucky to have extra seconds you may get a second hand on it.

second night sites are pretty much useless but they are cool.. I use the night sites to find the gun on my night stand at night..lol. Once you use a gun at night or low lighting the muzzle blast render your eyes useless for seconds and if you fire several rounds even much more useless so you will never use night sites, knowing this it could save you around 100.00 bucks on your purchase.

[RedLS1GTO]

Long story short... go shoot as many as you can and get what YOU are most comfortable with.

There is some good advice in this thread (and some that might be questionable). Some folks say go revolver, some say go 9mm, some think that carrying a cannon is the only way to go. Only you can decide what is right for you.

[Fastguy]

second night sites are pretty much useless but they are cool.. I use the night sites to find the gun on my night stand at night..lol. Once you use a gun at night or low lighting the muzzle blast render your eyes useless for seconds and if you fire several rounds even much more useless so you will never use night sites, knowing this it could save you around 100.00 bucks on your purchase.

I would think that is true if its pitch black. I used to shoot steels after work and we would be shooting in very low light. My Glock 19 had very little muzzle flash and adding Trijicon sights made a huge difference in my accuracy. That being said, I don't even really have sights on my carry gun. :D

For size comparison,
J frame S&W model 60, 5 shot 38 special

K frame S&W model 17, 6 shot 22

L frame S&W model 686+, 7 shot .357 Magnum. 4" barrel.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/saltysearay/revolvercomparison.jpg




If you have big hands, a J frame may be too small but you can get L frames with a short barrel and a bobbed grip.
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/d/d1/S%26W686Short.jpg/400px-S%26W686Short.jpg

[Jeff '79]

Long story short... go shoot as many as you can and get what YOU are most comfortable with.

There is some good advice in this thread (and some that might be questionable). Some folks say go revolver, some say go 9mm, some think that carrying a cannon is the only way to go. Only you can decide what is right for you.

That is exactly what I'm going to do, and have been doing. So far the Walther PPK is my favorite. I am now just educating myself, as best as possible to make the most informed decision....My next step will be to go fire my neighbor's pistols, as I have been doing, but I now have my choices narrowed down a bit....My neighbor has probably 100 pistols, but he carries a small Bersa......He knows his shit, so he'll be a big influence on what I choose also....I am going to tell him what I've been looking at, and then let him tell me what he recommends, (revolver or center fire)...:cert:

[Fastguy]

Nitpick alert! Center fire relates to the ammo, not the gun. Every common round outside of a 22 is center fire. A 22 is a rimfire. You are looking at revolver versus semi-auto.

[Chris Fowler]

The range closest to us has a large number of guns that you can rent for $10/session. My wife and I went through a large number of pistols before we found what we each liked.

Sometimes just picking it up eliminated it from what we liked...

We kept renting until we each found what we wanted.

[Jeff '79]

The range closest to us has a large number of guns that you can rent for $10/session. My wife and I went through a large number of pistols before we found what we each liked.

Sometimes just picking it up eliminated it from what we liked...

We kept renting until we each found what we wanted.

:yesnod:....:iagree:

[Jeff '79]

He has the LCP, I have the LC9 (well my wife does). Recoil is not bad at all. I like it. I like it enough that I will probably be picking up another one for me to carry. It is just a nice small package.

I love my XD, I love my 2 mid size glocks, and I really love my subcompact D27 40 cal, but the size of the LC9 is perfect to conceal with almost any outfit.

I will do some pics tomorrow to compare the sizes...:waiting:

The more that I read about the LC9, the more I like what I read. I wish my neighbor would call back. He must be out somewhere today...I wanna get my paws on one to try out, so I hope that he has one.

[RedLS1GTO]

..:waiting:

The more that I read about the LC9, the more I like what I read. I wish my neighbor would call back. He must be out somewhere today...I wanna get my paws on one to try out, so I hope that he has one.

Ruger makes a fantastic gun. Period.

I would have an LC9 myself if I didn't already have something to fill the 9mm niche. As cheap as they are... I just might add one to the arsenal anyway.

[RedLS1GTO]

If you go the revolver route, it is hard to beat the deals that Bud's has...

Police Trade Ins for Sale at BudsGunShop (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/654_910/Police+Trade+Ins/)

(Bud's is usually close to the cheapest that you will find new guns as well)

The S&W Model 10 is an amazing gun (a little big to carry for my tastes) but otherwise amazing. There is a reason that ~6,000,000 of them have been made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10

Here is mine: A 1944 US Navy Victory model.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/botch1980/Guns/IMG_2151.jpg

[Jeff '79]

It's prolly gonna be like taking my first piss at a football game....Once the seal is broken........

[RedLS1GTO]

It's prolly gonna be like taking my first piss at a football game....Once the seal is broken........

:yesnod:

The link I just posted for Bud's was because I was looking for more for myself.

Seriously thinking about picking up 1 of those Model 10s to shoot so I can retire the Navy model to show duty.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

If it were me, I'd save my money on the gun and buy a guitar or camera.

Hope this helped Jeff. :D

[Jeff '79]

If it were me, I'd save my money on the gun and buy a guitar or camera.

Hope this helped Jeff. :D

:rofl:....On to the next obsession....:seasix:

[Burro (He/Haw)]

:rofl:....On to the next obsession....:seasix:

Mine have been pretty consistent over the years oddly enough.

[DAB]

interesting and good thread.

my Spring 'to do' is to take the NM concealed carry class and get my permit - why? because i can.

hauled out my 92F, just to fondle it this morning....about time to put it back. was reading a gun forum about the differences in the 92F, 92FS, M9....i like mine, was made in Italy, before production moved to MD.

[RedLS1GTO]

hauled out my 92F, just to fondle it this morning....about time to put it back. was reading a gun forum about the differences in the 92F, 92FS, M9....i like mine, was made in Italy, before production moved to MD.

The m9 is my personal favorite 9mm of all time. Thousands upon thousands of rounds through them and have never had one that didn't do exactly what it was supposed to do. They served me well through some hairy situations. I don't have 1 in my personal collection... but will.

[Jeff '79]

interesting and good thread.

my Spring 'to do' is to take the NM concealed carry class and get my permit - why? because i can.

hauled out my 92F, just to fondle it this morning....about time to put it back. was reading a gun forum about the differences in the 92F, 92FS, M9....i like mine, was made in Italy, before production moved to MD.

The m9 is my personal favorite 9mm of all time. Thousands upon thousands of rounds through them and have never had one that didn't do exactly what it was supposed to do. They served me well through some hairy situations. I don't have 1 in my personal collection... but will.

Those both look like no nonsense, solid pistols. I'll put them on my list to try out also....:seasix: They both look like good home defense, and range pistols. They both seem a tad big to carry though.

[RedLS1GTO]

Those both look like no nonsense, solid pistols. I'll put them on my list to try out also....:seasix: They both look like good home defense, and range pistols. They both seem a tad big to carry though.

They are great range guns, as good as it gets for a 9mm home defense gun but too large for my tastes to carry.

An overlooked feature many times when picking a gun is ease of maintenance. The Berettas are also very easy to break down, clean, and take care of.

[DAB]

Those both look like no nonsense, solid pistols. I'll put them on my list to try out also....:seasix: They both look like good home defense, and range pistols. They both seem a tad big to carry though.

92F and M9 are basically the same pistol.

agree, a little big for concealed carry, about the same overall size as a full size 1911.

in NM, you qualify based on caliber, so your permit will show the largest caliber gun in revolver you qualified with, and the largest caliber semiauto you qualified with. with that in mind, i'm on the lookout for a .45acp revolver, so i can qualify at .45 cal in both handgun types.

you can carry smaller, but not larger.

[RedLS1GTO]

in NM, you qualify based on caliber, so your permit will show the largest caliber gun in revolver you qualified with...

That is the dumbest f**king thing I have ever heard.

[SnikPlosskin]

They are great range guns, as good as it gets for a 9mm home defense gun but too large for my tastes to carry.

An overlooked feature many times when picking a gun is ease of maintenance. The Berettas are also very easy to break down, clean, and take care of.

I have an Italian beretta 96 in .40. Great weapon. But hard to conceal. I got a beretta PX 4 sub compact .40 and it is nice but nothing like the other one.

I think I like Springfield best. They are compact and have decent trigger set ups out of the box. The PX4 trigger is crap and can't be refined.

[DAB]

That is the dumbest f**king thing I have ever heard.

oh, it gets better. you have to complete a qualifying shoot. 25 shots, 10 at 3 yards, 15 at 7 yards, need to score 70%...the target is 12x18. no time limit. and you have to requalify every 2 years.

but....you can open carry, no permit needed, no test needed. they only get their fangs into you if you want to hide it. and you can only conceal carry one gun at a time, but you can open carry as many as you like.

i'm pretty sure i can score 100% on the target when it comes time for that.

[DAB]

just learned that my 92f was made in 1988, based on the proof code of AT on the trigger guard. cool.

[kingpin]

I don't know anything about guns, but this looks cool.

Heizer Defense Doubletap Pistol (http://www.ammoland.com/2011/10/25/heizer-defense-doubletap-pistol/)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k507/mike4452/d4dd83c3.jpg

[Chris Fowler]

That is the dumbest f**king thing I have ever heard.
Nevada is worse...you can only carry the caliber you qualify with. And you have to qualify with semiautos and revolvers separately.

In Texas if you qualify with a semiauto, .32 caliber or greater, you can carry any semi or revolver.

[RedLS1GTO]

Nevada is worse...you can only carry the caliber you qualify with. And you have to qualify with semiautos and revolvers separately.

In Texas if you qualify with a semiauto, .32 caliber or greater, you can carry any semi or revolver.

Wonder what they would say when I came with about 15 different pistols...

In Ohio, you send proof of a class (or military quals) and you can carry whatever you want.

WTF are these moronic carry laws supposed to be helping?

[JRD77VET]

Wonder what they would say when I came with about 15 different pistols...

In Ohio, you send proof of a class (or military quals) and you can carry whatever you want.

WTF are these moronic carry laws supposed to be helping?

PA you have to pass the backround check

Pennsylvania License To Carry Firearms

[Chris Fowler]

WTF are these moronic carry laws supposed to be helping?

Chickenshits who are scared of guns and the 2nd amendment.

[RedLS1GTO]

PA you have to pass the backround check

Pennsylvania License To Carry Firearms

I should have added that as part of the Ohio law as well.

Class + background check.

[JRD77VET]

I should have added that as part of the Ohio law as well.

Class + background check.

Pa is backround check only. :crazy:

[RedLS1GTO]

Chickenshits who are scared of guns and the 2nd amendment.

I really don't understand what even the chickenshittiest of the bunch would think that those asinine laws are accomplishing.

[BADRACR1]

I carried a Glock 19 daily until I got the Kahr CM9. Love the Glock! The little Kahr is easier to conceal though, especially in the warmer months. Only 6/7 shots, but I have a spare mag if the need arises.

[Chris Fowler]

I really don't understand what even the chickenshittiest of the bunch would think that those asinine laws are accomplishing.
There are those among them that honestly believe that a person with a gun is a murderer who just hasn't murdered yet.

[73sbVert]

I love AZ carry law!

:D

[MEANZ06]

I love AZ carry law!

:D

I love AZ carry law!

:D

we heard you

we heard you

:D

[Fastguy]

If it were me, I'd save my money on the gun and buy a guitar or camera.

Hope this helped Jeff. :D

With a handgun, you can a get a nice guitar and a nice camera, for free!

[Jeff '79]

With a handgun, you can a get a nice guitar and a nice camera, for free!

:rofl::rofl: BTW, were you trippin at the New Years Eve Overlook party ?...

[Jeff '79]

I'm really liking this one.....Or should I say two ?.:D..I haven't touched 'em yet , but I like the concept, a few people in this thread know people who love it, and it's the back up weapon of the Navy Seals, (P226 9mm)....You can't argue with Sig quality too... A full size range weapon, and a compact twin, for CCW, using the same internals...

Gunblast.com - SIG P250 2SUM 9mm Pistol - YouTube

Navy Seals - HK MP5 and Sig Sauer P226 9mm Pistol Backup - YouTube


SIG 250F92SUMC P250 9M SBCMP W/XCHKT Contrast Sights $569.00 SHIPS FREE (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/28/products_id/76571/Handguns/SIG+Sauer/SIG%20250F92SUMC%20P250%209M%20SBCMP%20W/XCHKT%20Contrast%20Sights/)

[73sbVert]

we heard you

we heard you

:D

Aw shaddap!! I got the dupe-age again! Dammit!