SWA passenger arrest .....

[67 327/400]

for not turning off his cell phone.


Southwest Airlines Passenger Arrested For Not Turning Off Phone « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/09/06/air-passenger-arrested-for-not-turning-off-phone/)

PHOENIX (CBS/AP) - Police in El Paso, Texas arrested a Southwest Airlines passenger on a flight from Phoenix after he refused to turn off his cell phone.

Southwest Airlines spokeswoman Whitney Eichinger in Dallas told The Associated Press Tuesday the man turned his cell phone on as flight 1833 landed about 5:45 p.m. in El Paso on Monday.

[simpleman68]

Good deal :hurray:
You can dispute the validity of the law, but if it's the law, turn your feckin' phone off after the door closes and they announce it.
Always makes me nuts when folks ignore such a simple request and the attendants have to tell them several times. :slap:
Scott

[Rob]

I never understood why that is the law.

[Kevin_73]

I never understood why that is the law.

I am sure there many people who will dispute it, but cell phone signals can interfere with electronic systems on the airplane.
My dad uses his cell phone occasionally while flying his Bonanza, and has noticed that whenever the phone is in a call the altitude hold on the autopilot malfunctions. :yesnod:

Avionic systems have to be designed and installed to work properly without causing interference with each other, but that is no guarantee that they will not be affected by other electromagnetic devices being operated in close proximity.

[Cybercowboy]

I can understand why not making a call is important, but having a device like the iPhone that can be placed in Airplane Mode and all you are doing is reading a book on it, and being forced to turn it off is really lame.

[VatorMan]

I can understand why not making a call is important, but having a device like the iPhone that can be placed in Airplane Mode and all you are doing is reading a book on it, and being forced to turn it off is really lame.

Can you imagine the time it would take if the attendant has to check everyone that is using a smartphone to see if it is on airplane mode ? What's so F'n hard about turning the damn things off for 15 minutes before takeoff and 15 minutes till you land ?

[Burnt C6]

They better hope that I'm not on the damn jury. Every flight I've ever taken on South West they tell you as soon as the thing hits the ground that it is ok to turn the cell phone on as long as it is within reach so you don't have to get up to get it. The only flights they tell you to leave it off till you get to the gate are on Turbo props that I've flown on with United. If the plane had touched down then he just did what everyone else on the plane probably did. Now if they want to make it a non compliance with flight attendant instructions then they might have a case. I do it all the time and I usually sit in the first two rown. they have never told me to turn it back off.

[67 327/400]

So the only issue is when the phone is on a call? Not when it is in the "Airplane mode" and used for everything else?

I agree the law is the law, but the plane had landed and sounds like it was taxiing up to the terminal. It wasn't in the air. :cheers:
The article was kind of vague, if this was the case then I don't see a problem with it. Maybe the passenger had turned his phone on prior to landing, hoping to catch a signal. Maybe the flight diverted because of his trying to use it in flight. Doesn't really give details.
:iagree:

That's like having me turn off an MP3 player or laptop that is just running. I have yet to see/read how that affects an airplane. And if it is THAT big of a deal, why only have me shut them off at take-off and landing times? Does something special happen during the flight that makes them ok to use?
The airline I fly for, we're told multiple reasons as to why they're not to be turned on at all. Interference with avionics equipment, terrorists using gps signals or barometer readings and just trying to keep the use down so that the users aren't annoying the other non-users.
In the cockpit we can tell when they're on because of a tone/code signal we get in our headsets from time to time. I've even received erroneous readings on my displays.
Sure there are going to be skeptics about everything out there, and someone is going to know more than everyone else. But rules are rules. The Fed's don't want you to use them, so keep them off. To my understanding, it's a federal offense.

[Yerf Dog]

If it was actually dangerous wouldn't terrorists just jump on a jet and leave their cell phones on during the flight? :skep:

[Bill]

I'm one that doesn't generally subscribe to blindly following rules, just because, but I side with Southwest on this one. The guy paid to be a guest of SWA, no different than if he rented a hotel room. By purchasing his ticket, he agreed in advance to a few things. He agreed not to smoke on the plane, for instance. He also agreed to wear a seat belt, for example.

Simple facts: the guy was using his phone, got called on it, and then refused to shut it off after he got called out.

No one goes to jail if they comply with a flight attendant request or demand the first time, unless maybe they pee on the cabin floor or something.

I'm sure countless thousands have done exactly what this guy did, EXCEPT that when confronted, they followed instructions.

NO sympathy for the guy, even if his actions were harmless (which seems to be the subject of debate).

[Kevin_73]

So the only issue is when the phone is on a call? Not when it is in the "Airplane mode" and used for everything else?

That was the only time he noticed any issue in his airplane. There are thousands of different avionics packages that can be installed in hundreds of different combinations though. Untested electromagnetic energy could very well affect each combination differently, and it would be impossible to test every combination of avionic package with every possible electronic device that could be used on board the airplane.

As far as the "airplane mode" or using a device that isn't designed to transmit over the airwaves, all electronic devices emit electromagnetic energy when they have electricity running through them.
I am sure the power is very tiny on most devices, but since there is no way to check the output of individual devices, or even test one of everything with each aircraft it is much easier and safer for the FAA to just say no to everything.

[VatorMan]

You can tell when someone boots up a laptop/tablet/smartphone in airplane mode?

Not being sarcastic, seriously asking. :cheers:

That's how he knows he has an Aggie on the flight. :lol:

[Kevin_73]

But that's what gets me. After a certain amount of time after takeoff and before landing, you hear the announcment "you may now use approved electronic devices" (which are usually laptops, tablets, mp3 players, dvd players, etc...).

So what happens with those devices at the time of takeoff and landing that doesn't happen during flight that makes them dangerous? That's the part I don't understand. :confused:


I really don't know for sure, but I suspect the reasoning is that if there is an issue with an electronic device causing a problem with the aircraft there would be time to deal with it safely when the plane is at altitude and cruising speed. During takeoff and landing the plane is at low altitude, low airspeed, and is maneuvering. That leaves very little margin for dealing with possible electronic problems.

[Scruff Vette]

Southwest Airlines Passenger Arrested For Not Turning Off Phone « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/09/06/air-passenger-arrested-for-not-turning-off-phone/)

Will make my 18 yr old daughter read this one out loud. That should end the "Whyyyyy???.. it's so stupid" argument....maybe. :D

[Chris Fowler]

I'm still trying to figure out why I have to turn off my Kindle...

[67 327/400]

You can tell when someone boots up a laptop/tablet/smartphone in airplane mode?

Not being sarcastic, seriously asking. :cheers:
In airplane mode? No, as long as there is no signal being put out there shouldn't be any interference.
But we don't know if this guy was trying to make a call or send a text message because the article is so vague.

But that's what gets me. After a certain amount of time after takeoff and before landing, you hear the announcment "you may now use approved electronic devices" (which are usually laptops, tablets, mp3 players, dvd players, etc...).

So what happens with those devices at the time of takeoff and landing that doesn't happen during flight that makes them dangerous? That's the part I don't understand. :confused:


You're able to use those devices if they don't admit a signal their own GPS or a internet signal outside of the WiFi signal provided on the airplane. You can use the WiFi on the airplane because of the placement of the antenna on the airplane, it's been secured away from the airplanes avionic systems.
Also, the reason they don't want you using those devices during take off and landing is because of the chance of an emergency. If everyone has their laptops/DVD players out and they have to evacuate the airplane then it's just more clutter to deal with. It's the same reason of the "Seat backs in the upright and locked position" rule.
The airlines don't make these rules up just to make rules. They're FAA regs, and usually are written in blood.

[Joecooool]

Every flight I've been on in the past ten years, I turn my phone on as soon as the wheels touch the ground.

As do all the people around me.

There has never been a documented case of a cell phone interfering with a plane. Hell, I've left mine on by accident the whole flight before on more than one occasion with no issues.

Stupid shit.

[Rob]

Hell, I've left mine on by accident the whole flight before on more than one occasion with no issues.

Stupid shit.

:iagree: I have just thrown it into the bag when I go through the checkpoint and forget to put it back in my pocket. Plus, I keep it on vibrate anyway, so the damn thing is probably going off the whole time in flight anyway.

[Jobaka]

Regardless of the merits, or lack thereof, of the law, the man had 2 choices:

1. Turn off the phone and go about his day.

2. Keep it real and get arrested.


IMHO, he chose poorly.

[67 327/400]

Regardless of the merits, or lack thereof, of the law, the man had 2 choices:

1. Turn off the phone and go about his day.

2. Keep it real and get arrested.


IMHO, he chose poorly.

:lol:

[BuckyThreadkiller]

Every flight I've been on in the past ten years, I turn my phone on as soon as the wheels touch the ground.

As do all the people around me.

There has never been a documented case of a cell phone interfering with a plane. Hell, I've left mine on by accident the whole flight before on more than one occasion with no issues.

Stupid shit.

Perhaps. But I fly SWA about 6 times a month, their policy is pretty simple and straight forward. All electronics are off - not standby, not airplane mode - just off, when the plane is below 10,000ft on take-off and landing. They are very clear on this during preflight announcements, it's in the inflight magazine and IIRC on the safety card. There's a cabin chime and announcement that tells you when you can turn them on and off in whatever non-phone mode you may have for ebooks, games or music.

Note the OP doesn't say they were on the ground it says they were landing, not landed. They do not have an issue with you firing it up once the wheels touch the ground.

[67 327/400]

Every flight I've been on in the past ten years, I turn my phone on as soon as the wheels touch the ground.

As do all the people around me.

There has never been a documented case of a cell phone interfering with a plane. Hell, I've left mine on by accident the whole flight before on more than one occasion with no issues.

Stupid shit.

Actually there is, I filed the paperwork myself with the FAA and airline when we had to pull off the runway to tell the passengers again to turn off their phones. I had to file it because we were cleared to take off, but had to pull off the runway.
As we were taxing, we kept getting the signal tone in our headset and each time we heard it, we received a "master warning" along with a indication that the two navigation computers were disagreeing with our current location.

Is the cell phone being on going to cause the plane to crash? no. Will it interfere with the instruments? Yes it will and it has.

[NB2K]

Look, we all know that flying commercial has become one the most painful experiences known to humankind.
Filthy airplanes, nasty people, rude and condescending passengers and FAs...

Why make it worse by being an a-hole?

[67 327/400]

Look, we all know that flying commercial has become one the most painful experiences known to humankind.
Filthy airplanes, nasty people, rude and condescending passengers and FAs...

Why make it worse by being an a-hole?

It's a combo of sense of entitlement and I know more than you.

[OddBall]

If it was actually dangerous wouldn't terrorists just jump on a jet and leave their cell phones on during the flight? :skep:

Oh great. Now you've done it. :slap:

[Joecooool]

Actually there is, I filed the paperwork myself with the FAA and airline when we had to pull off the runway to tell the passengers again to turn off their phones. I had to file it because we were cleared to take off, but had to pull off the runway.
As we were taxing, we kept getting the signal tone in our headset and each time we heard it, we received a "master warning" along with a indication that the two navigation computers were disagreeing with our current location.

Is the cell phone being on going to cause the plane to crash? no. Will it interfere with the instruments? Yes it will and it has.

How do you know a cell phone caused that?

[LATB]

oh the tangled web we have woven.

[NB2K]

It's a combo of sense of entitlement and I know more than you.

Exactly.

I think my job is important (at least to me), but if I'm that important I fly private.

[NB2K]

Is how I read that the first time. :lol:

Hell, that would work, too.

Once.

[67 327/400]

How do you know a cell phone caused that?

There is a distinct signal and tone that runs through our headsets when a cell phone is turned on, dialed or a text message is sent.
Pulled off the runway, told the flight attendants as to why, to which one replied that he finally turned it off and that he had been sending a text message.
It's amazing the power of the PA System.

[67 327/400]

Had to get the last text out before take off.

Make sure his booty call was ready when he landed.

Very important ya know. :D

I can completely understand, especially flying out of airports that run delayed more than other...letting your ride know you will actually be on time or late.
But from the pilot side, I'm not taking off if the navigational systems don't know where we are. Flying within 1,000ft of altitude separation of other airliners in extremely congested airspace, I'm not willing to risk my life on it.

[Bob CTS]

I can completely understand, especially flying out of airports that run delayed more than other...letting your ride know you will actually be on time or late.
But from the pilot side, I'm not taking off if the navigational systems don't know where we are. Flying within 1,000ft of altitude separation of other airliners in extremely congested airspace, I'm not willing to risk my life on it.

I appreciate your regard to passenger safety.

BTW did the FAA not recently do a study as to relaxing the electronics rule on take off and landing? Thought I remember something about but might have confused it with something else.

[67 327/400]

I appreciate your regard to passenger safety.

BTW did the FAA not recently do a study as to relaxing the electronics rule on take off and landing? Thought I remember something about but might have confused it with something else.

Not sure, I haven't heard anything about it. Usually we get a memo on it right as it's released. :cheers:

[Bob CTS]

Not sure, I haven't heard anything about it. Usually we get a memo on it right as it's released. :cheers:

I think it was awhile ago, heck the study might still be going on.

:cheers:

[Joecooool]

There is a distinct signal and tone that runs through our headsets when a cell phone is turned on, dialed or a text message is sent.
Pulled off the runway, told the flight attendants as to why, to which one replied that he finally turned it off and that he had been sending a text message.
It's amazing the power of the PA System.I'm a pilot and I use to be an air traffic controller. You stating this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say definitively that the cell phone caused this kind of issue

So something weird happened with the headset. A flight attendant finds a cell phone is left on. She tells the passenger to turn it off and the interference goes away. Is there any way to prove that the cell phone was the cause of the interference? No. Unusual noises and tones flow through headsets all the time and almost always go away, so to say the cause was a cell phone left on may be a bit of a stretch.

[MattW]

Phil, I don't travel nearly as much as you - I fly once a month, average - and I never, ever, EVER forget to turn off my phones before takeoff. Yes, phones - I keep two when I'm traveling for business.

Time to check yourself for early-onset dementia :)

[67 327/400]

I'm a pilot and I use to be an air traffic controller. You stating this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say definitively that the cell phone caused this kind of issue

So something weird happened with the headset. A flight attendant finds a cell phone is left on. She tells the passenger to turn it off and the interference goes away. Is there any way to prove that the cell phone was the cause of the interference? No. Unusual noises and tones flow through headsets all the time and almost always go away, so to say the cause was a cell phone left on may be a bit of a stretch.
Ok you win, you know it all. :rolleyes:
Remind me again, how many hours of airline flying do you have?

I think it was awhile ago, heck the study might still be going on.

:cheers:
They're always studying this. My friend is a mechanic on a King Air 200 that Motorola uses solely for testing, especially cell phone interference signals.

[Zed16]

But that's what gets me. After a certain amount of time after takeoff and before landing, you hear the announcment "you may now use approved electronic devices" (which are usually laptops, tablets, mp3 players, dvd players, etc...).

So what happens with those devices at the time of takeoff and landing that doesn't happen during flight that makes them dangerous? That's the part I don't understand. :confused:


FYI, I 100% agree the dork in the article should have just turned off his phone when asked unless he had a VERY legit reason (ie. family emergency, medical emergency, etc...) for not doing it. I doubt it was a VERY legit reason.

I really don't know for sure, but I suspect the reasoning is that if there is an issue with an electronic device causing a problem with the aircraft there would be time to deal with it safely when the plane is at altitude and cruising speed. During takeoff and landing the plane is at low altitude, low airspeed, and is maneuvering. That leaves very little margin for dealing with possible electronic problems.

I'm a pilot and I use to be an air traffic controller. You stating this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say definitively that the cell phone caused this kind of issue

So something weird happened with the headset. A flight attendant finds a cell phone is left on. She tells the passenger to turn it off and the interference goes away. Is there any way to prove that the cell phone was the cause of the interference? No. Unusual noises and tones flow through headsets all the time and almost always go away, so to say the cause was a cell phone left on may be a bit of a stretch.

The short answer is that there can be an ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI) with the Instrument Landing System (ILS). A sympathy harmonic frequency can occur across the same frequencies used by ILS. Above 10K, it doesn't matter.

Separately, there have been circumstances of interference with flight control systems - usually on older aircraft that have less EMI shielding in the wiring harnesses. This has not been proven, but anecdotal stories continue. In a world of digital flight controls, this shouldn't be an issue.

So you might ask, can't we overcome these relatively straightforward technical issues? Yes, but no one wants to pay or more importantly, take on the liability of certifying that there is no issue. It much easier to continue having people turn cell phones off.

Back to your regularly scheduled crap....

[Allan]

14 Code of Federal Regualtions (CFR)


§ 91.21 Portable electronic devices.(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:

(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or

(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Portable voice recorders;

(2) Hearing aids;

(3) Heart pacemakers;

(4) Electric shavers; or

(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.


§ 135.144 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Portable voice recorders;

(2) Hearing aids;

(3) Heart pacemakers;

(4) Electric shavers; or

(5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c). The determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used.


NOTE - THIS IS ADMINISTRATIVE - NOT CRIMINAL.
Unable to locate the penalty for a violation of the above Administrative Regulations.

Title 18 U.S. Code, Chapter 2 - Aircraft & Motor Vehicles is the criminal statutes. Unable to locate any specific criminal violation.

[Sea Six]

Y'all don't mind JoeCooool.

He just pulls random crap out of his ass and states it (very authoritatively) as fact whenever he hears something contrary to the way he thinks things ought to be.

He has made an online career out of doing this here and at the other place.

You can spot these because he paints with a brush broad enough to include our entire solar system.

:rolleyes:

[VatorMan]

Y'all don't mind JoeCooool.

He just pulls random crap out of his ass and states it (very authoritatively) as fact whenever he hears something contrary to the way he thinks things ought to be.

He has made an online career out of doing this here and at the other place.

You can spot these because he paints with a brush broad enough to include our entire solar system.

:rolleyes:

You are just as bad. DAMN you guys get over yourselves.

[Sea Six]

:moon: