Lest You Think.....

[Flatbush Harry]

....that everyone without health insurance goes broke...

from the Insurance Journal:


Few families without health insurance have the financial assets to pay potential hospital bills. On average, uninsured families can only afford to pay in full for approximately 12 percent of hospital stays they may experience – and even higher-income uninsured families are unable to pay for most potential hospital stays, according to a report by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

Hospital stays for which the uninsured cannot pay in full account for 95 percent of the total amount hospitals bill the uninsured. Other studies have estimated that the bills for all types of health care that the uninsured cannot pay – the uncompensated cost of care – is up to $73 billion a year, a significant portion of which is shifted into higher costs for Americans with insurance and their employers, according to HHS.

The report found that most of the country’s 50 million uninsured people have virtually no savings. In fact, the median financial assets for all uninsured families are just $20. Even among higher-income families, assets are low. Half of families with income at 400 percent of the federal poverty level, or $89,400 a year for a family of four in 2011, have financial assets below $4,100.

Every year, nearly two million uninsured Americans are hospitalized. With 58 percent of these hospital stays resulting in bills of more than $10,000, most uninsured people are unable to afford potential hospital bills. The report found that even the top 10 percent of uninsured families with the most assets are estimated to be able to pay the full bill for only half of potential hospital stays. Uninsured families can, on average, afford to pay the full bills for only about 12 percent of the hospital stays they might experience, bills that account for just 5 percent of the total amount hospitals bill them.

“Health insurance is critical in helping protect families from unexpected hospital costs,” said Sherry Glied, HHS assistant secretary for planning and evaluation. “This report shows that even higher-income uninsured families are struggling to meet the high costs of health care. No family should bear the burden of being one illness or accident away from bankruptcy.”

According to the report, the high cost of hospitalization means that lacking health insurance poses a greater risk of financial catastrophe than lacking car insurance or homeowner’s insurance. Although people are 50 percent more likely to have a car accident than to be hospitalized in a given year, the average bill for a hospital visit is more than two and a half times higher than the average loss for a car accident. While the bill for a single hospitalization is about the same as the average loss from a house fire, a person is 10 times more likely to be hospitalized than to experience a house fire.

$y.14159rHa3rr

[Datawiz]

The report found that most of the country’s 50 million uninsured people have virtually no savings. In fact, the median financial assets for all uninsured families are just $20. Even among higher-income families, assets are low. Half of families with income at 400 percent of the federal poverty level, or $89,400 a year for a family of four in 2011, have financial assets below $4,100.

THIS is why we are in deep shit.

My family took deep financial losses in 2009 and we're still fighting, but $4,100? Really?

We, as a country, need to re-learn how to save money.

[ZipZap]

THIS is why we are in deep shit.

My family took deep financial losses in 2009 and we're still fighting, but $4,100? Really?

We, as a country, need to re-learn how to save money.

We need to figure out how to control healthcare costs as well. I have what is probably considered excellent health insurance, but I fear the time when I want to retire. Somethings gotta give.

[lspencer534]

So, this means what to the rest of us who have health insurance? That we should chip in and pay for those without health insurance? Government has an odd belief about making health insurance more affordable: That more competition will lead to lower costs. Wrong! Does the competition between oil companies result in lower costs? Grocery stores? Doctors? Dentists? The free market does not guarantee lower costs; it only guarantees availability (if the "product" is to be had at all).

[C5Nate]

I guess I am a fool for always paying my hospital bills all these years.

[Datawiz]

I guess I am a fool for always paying my hospital bills all these years.

Apparently. :sadangel:

[Uri]

Apparently. :sadangel:

No.....definitely..:leaving:

[VITE1]

How many of those uninsured have access to HI but refuse to pay for it? Way to many based on the reports I have seen.

[Yerf Dog]

I guess I am a fool for always paying my hospital bills all these years.

Sucker! Next you'll tell us you paid off your home. :rofl:

[Kerrmudgeon]

We've had universal health care for going on 50 years in one type or another, and we're not bankrupt, and in fact came out of the current recession in better shape than most countries, and the deficit incurred is scheduled to be paid off by 2015-18. Unlike the USA, which is out of control, debt wise.
http://s7.tinypic.com/28h30qh_th.jpg

[Blademaker]

We, as a country, need to re-learn how to save money.

:iagree:

And until people learn that while credit cards may come in handy, they're still financial heroin.

[mrvette]

Pardon ME, but it's no wonder, hospital bills a stupid HIGH, since when is a silly 4 hours stint in the ER and a diagnosis of diavertirculosis worth a potential bill of 5,500 bux.....no X rays, no pills, nothing but a rectal exam....and set there talking to my wife for 4 hours.....drove myself there....

who in hell can afford a rip off charge like THAT?? 550 bux is more like it, even with the doc bill....ten minits total....nurse spent 20 minits total.....

AND the only real reason I see for that kind of overbilling?? LAWYERS, that's it....and the resulting high insurance costs.....

wanna drop health costs, assume for the sake of humanity that the Doctor's oath is serious, first do no harm, and make them immune from every day lawsuits, they make a mistake, too damn bad, but obviously egregious errors and work costs them their license, THEN maybe they get sued....maybe....

hospitals and clinics, ambulances etc....suitproof by statute.....

seems like every greedy bastard outta law school get to retire by age 30, ONE decent case....just ONE, and it's ten mega bux.....outta there....

:seeya:

[NB2K]

As long as we let the insurance companies and the major providers dictate the rules of the game, we are screwed.

[mrvette]

As long as we let the insurance companies and the major providers dictate the rules of the game, we are screwed.

5500 bux to whatever coverage I had was OUTLANDISH.....a stone rip off, I fail to see how any insurance company can be in business getting bills like that,....hell, I turned down hosp insurance at 200/month.....too damn much money....

course now a daze I have medicrap coverage age 67.....

:dance:

[LATB]

How many of those uninsured have access to HI but refuse to pay for it? Way to many based on the reports I have seen.

most who don't have health ins can afford it but choose not to. Obama wants the rest of us to pick up the health ins tab for these folks, while they buy plasma TV's & Iphones & new cars.

[VetteBoy1979]

In the last two years I have gone to doctors and hospitals more than I ever have in my life. About 14 MRI's later, appointments with neurosurgeons, neuro-oncologists, spinal surgery, 1 week in the hospital, etc, etc, and I'm out of pocket about $8,500 for my premiums and co-pays. I've paid it all, and the hospitals are more than willing to offer payment plans. I can't complain because my experience was extraordinary, and the Dr. saved me, no doubt. I will continue to have checkups the rest of my life, but I'm ok with that.

In reference to Gene's comments, here is an interesting piece of information, out of a $75,000 overall bill for surgery, hospital stay, etc...the neurosurgeon's part (top in the world) was about $7,000 for 5 hours of surgery, initial meetings, diagnosis, etc. I wouldn't say his part was overly expensive as he was smart enough to dig around in my spinal cord and I came out ok...however, you can see that the other aspects of the stay were GROSSLY expensive. Again, I'm not complaining, but $25 for an anti-nausea pill is a bit ridiculous. I agree, some aspects of our health care system seem WAY out of whack.

[VITE1]

most who don't have health ins can afford it but choose not to. Obama wants the rest of us to pick up the health ins tab for these folks, while they buy plasma TV's & Iphones & new cars.

I have a link that shows the avtual number od people who are legal US rrsedents thay cannot afford insurane is around 6 million.

I will post it whenI get home tonight.

Most people who do not have insurance chose not to get it or are illegals.

[Montehall]

here's how to do it.
Go to hopsital A, get procedure or whatever done. Agree to pay $xxx per month until it's paid.
Then only pay $1 a month.
next time you need something, go to hospital B, and repeat above.
when you run out of hosiptal, make a "large" payment to Hospital A ($40) and then go back in.

it worked pretty well for one of our dead-beat renters.

appearently, at least in Indiana and Illinois, hospital payment plans are not legally binding in any way.

[NB2K]

The simple fact is that if you have any net worth at all, you'd best have medical insurance.

If you don't have any financial worth, why bother?

[NB2K]

"The report found that most of the country’s 50 million uninsured people "

Any way to verify this number? How did they arrive at this figure?

I highly doubt that it is accurate.


EDIT:

Looks like the data is from 2008:
http://www.healthcare.gov/center/reports/preexisting.html

[Joecooool]

Socialized medicine is the only solution. It will be here sooner or later.

[NB2K]

Socialized medicine is the only solution. It will be here sooner or later.

You may be right.

I sure as hell would like to see insurance company reform first, though.

The way they define "groups" and "pre-existing conditions" is BS.

[Joecooool]

You may be right.

I sure as hell would like to see insurance company reform first, though.

The way they define "groups" and "pre-existing conditions" is BS.They resist all changes and their lobbyist own politicians.

Insurance companies are nothing more than middlemen that dramatically increase the cost of health care. They rape customers, screw hospitals and doctors, and dump those they consider too risky out on their asses where the tax payer then has to cover the expense.

They are an evil that needs to be eradicated. A government take over of the system is the only long term solution.

[NB2K]

They resist all changes and their lobbyist own politicians.

Insurance companies are nothing more than middlemen that dramatically increase the cost of health care. They rape customers, screw hospitals and doctors, and dump those they consider too risky out on their asses where the tax payer then has to cover the expense.

They are an evil that needs to be eradicated. A government take over of the system is the only long term solution.

Well hell, Joe, I think you need to take a more definitive position on this issue.:D

[lspencer534]

They resist all changes and their lobbyist own politicians.

Insurance companies are nothing more than middlemen that dramatically increase the cost of health care. They rape customers, screw hospitals and doctors, and dump those they consider too risky out on their asses where the tax payer then has to cover the expense.

They are an evil that needs to be eradicated. A government take over of the system is the only long term solution.

I'm not a defender of heath care insurance companies--I hate them, too--but how do you square your argument with the fact that their profit margin is less than 2%?

[Olustee bus]

I'm not a defender of heath care insurance companies--I hate them, too--but how do you square your argument with the fact that their profit margin is less than 2%?

Very important point. AS a community activist, President Obama has vilified the health insurance industry and the healthcare provider industry. That is the modis operandi for activist, created a "boogey man" and get the sheep behind your agenda.

I contend that the most driving factor about high healthcare costs is the influence of the underinsured and noninsured.

Here is a list, as I see it that has led to spiraling healthcare costs since WWII:

After WWII, due to the improvements in healthcare for soldiers, they and the rest of the US demanded it.

Technology costs after that vastly increased and we, demand it in our area. Also, every provider had to have it, even if it is across the street, way too much duplication of those costs.

Healthcare workers shortages was a big driver of costs, especially a few years back. Salaries increased dramatically, in most cases as they should have.

Employee based insurance coverage and government programs put the burden of cost reduction on those other than the patient.
and in my estimation, the tremendous cost of medical care these days is due to those who cannot pay for it or will not pay for it.

Right now, the high costs are being paid by those with insurance or money and government programs which is funded by those (few) who pay taxes.

We either pay for it through our insurance or taxes.

I personally had rather :

1 pay it through a fair tax method

2 make those who can afford to pay towards their care do so

It should not be the burden of those responsible for their own care.

[Joecooool]

I'm not a defender of heath care insurance companies--I hate them, too--but how do you square your argument with the fact that their profit margin is less than 2%?The 2% is taken out of context.

Insurers are measuring their profits against total health care spending. That's all the money you and I and employers and insurers and the government spend for doctors' visits, hospitalizations, drugs and other things.

By using the total health care costs, their profits look lower.

But many economists calculate insurance company profits differently. Just like for any other business, they look at what the companies take in — in this case in premiums — versus what they pay out directly, as in claims.

Fortune magazine economists calculate insurance company profits this way:

For the 10 biggest insurers in the year 2006 (the year the insurers used for the 1 cent out of every dollar depiction above), profits were anywhere from 2 to 10 percent, or two to 10 pennies on the dollar. That's two to 10 times as much as what the insurance industry group suggests in its illustrations.

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86 (http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-insurance-industry-ranks-86-by.html)

But profit isn't what you should be looking at. The better measurement is not profit, but return on invested capital (ROIC). ROIC measures how much money it takes to set up and run an insurance company, versus how much profit it brings in. Unfortunately it's not so easy to find good ROIC figures. The closest equivalent Yahoo business has is return on equity (ROE), but that can vary according to whether firms are financed through equity or debt. Still, across the entire industry this hopefully evens out a bit, and what it shows is that ROE in health insurance is about 16.1%, roughly the same as for the health-care industry as a whole, and a good deal higher than the average ROE in most sectors of the economy.

Insurance costs and health-care reform: Are health insurers making huge profits? | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/health_care_reform)

[lspencer534]

The 2% is taken out of context.

Insurers are measuring their profits against total health care spending. That's all the money you and I and employers and insurers and the government spend for doctors' visits, hospitalizations, drugs and other things.

By using the total health care costs, their profits look lower.

But many economists calculate insurance company profits differently. Just like for any other business, they look at what the companies take in — in this case in premiums — versus what they pay out directly, as in claims.

Fortune magazine economists calculate insurance company profits this way:

For the 10 biggest insurers in the year 2006 (the year the insurers used for the 1 cent out of every dollar depiction above), profits were anywhere from 2 to 10 percent, or two to 10 pennies on the dollar. That's two to 10 times as much as what the insurance industry group suggests in its illustrations.

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86 (http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-insurance-industry-ranks-86-by.html)

But profit isn't what you should be looking at. The better measurement is not profit, but return on invested capital (ROIC). ROIC measures how much money it takes to set up and run an insurance company, versus how much profit it brings in. Unfortunately it's not so easy to find good ROIC figures. The closest equivalent Yahoo business has is return on equity (ROE), but that can vary according to whether firms are financed through equity or debt. Still, across the entire industry this hopefully evens out a bit, and what it shows is that ROE in health insurance is about 16.1%, roughly the same as for the health-care industry as a whole, and a good deal higher than the average ROE in most sectors of the economy.

Insurance costs and health-care reform: Are health insurers making huge profits? | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/health_care_reform)

It's not that hard to calculate profits, even in the notoriously crooked movie industry. "The better measurement is not profit, but return on invested capital....": Says who? Playing the devil's advocate, even if profits are actually 2% (at least) or 10% (at most), I still don't see a rape of the public. BTW, any source with "democracyinamerica" in it's website name doesn't seem very unbiased to me.

[Scissors]

It shouldn't have to be said, but:

The entire reason for insurance is to redistribute wealth from those who have it to those who "need" it. Car insurance takes money from good drivers and gives it to bad or unlucky ones. Health insurance takes money from healthy people and gives it to unhealthy or unlucky ones.

In order to work, there must be a pool of payers who are sufficiently healthy (or good at driving) so as to pay for those who are not, plus profit for the insurance company, plus profit for the payees. The less healthy people in general are (and the more accidents they get into) the higher the costs rise for everyone.

Right now obesity is the #1 driving force in high healthcare costs for everyone. It's causing a huge number of secondary conditions which are costing the hospitals, and therefore the taxpayers and insurance plan participants, large sums of money.

Inefficiencies also cost money. Needless tests and hospital stay times cost more when they don't need to. So do expensive procedures which result in little overall benefit for the population. Dumping a million dollars to save a single life doesn't exactly help the pocket books of those who are paying into the system more than they're getting out.

Thouse not as big a factor, the high cost of medical educations also don't help. Sure, it ensures quality doctors are the norm. But it also tightens supply, and leaves them with huge student loans to pay off. Guess who pays for those in the end.

[DJ_Critterus]

We need to figure out how to control healthcare costs as well. I have what is probably considered excellent health insurance, but I fear the time when I want to retire. Somethings gotta give.

I've always wondered how the hospitals/doctors come up with the prices for their services. Plus, they tend to simply perform them then send the bill leaving you with a "WTF???" look on your face.

I haven't had to deal with that myself since I've been in the military for the past ten years, but looking at the bills they tried to make my wife pay (they mess up one letter in the name and Tri-Care won't pay) I was astounded. It's a good thing we had health insurance, though or our savings would be less than that $4,100.

[Joecooool]

I've always wondered how the hospitals/doctors come up with the prices for their services. Plus, they tend to simply perform them then send the bill leaving you with a "WTF???" look on your face.As a civilian, you will soon find out how it works.

Its the only industry in this country where you can not get a quote for services prior to them being rendered. Think about that for a minute.

When I had a very minor routine procedure last year, the hospital made me come in the day before and pay my deductible up front before they admitted me. When I then asked how much the procedure was going to cost me, I was treated rudely and lied to. The financial people told me no one ever asks how much something cost and they don't know. I demanded a number and she came back with something she simply pulled out of her ass. I asked her for it in writing and was told no. She was only off by about half what the total procedure cost.

Its bullshit and the industry needs a major overhaul.

[DAB]

As a civilian, you will soon find out how it works.

Its the only industry in this country where you can not get a quote for services prior to them being rendered. Think about that for a minute.

When I had a very minor routine procedure last year, the hospital made me come in the day before and pay my deductible up front before they admitted me. When I then asked how much the procedure was going to cost me, I was treated rudely and lied to. The financial people told me no one ever asks how much something cost and they don't know. I demanded a number and she came back with something she simply pulled out of her ass. I asked her for it in writing and was told no. She was only off by about half what the total procedure cost.

Its bullshit and the industry needs a major overhaul.

if more took your approach, that would be a good thing.

this also touches on a related aspect: most people do not pay for the care they get, it is foisted off to either an insurance company, or the federal government, and as long as the forms are filled out correctly, they pay up. and then pass along costs to all the insured or taxpayers.

like i've said before, if the prospect of getting an expensive ailment wasn't so scary, i'd drop insurance and pay as i go.

[NB2K]

First off, nobody knows what any one company's profit margins really are, unless you are a stockholder in a particular company.

Saying health insurance companies only make a 2% profit is not factual.

Secondly, where does the "obesity is the number 1 factor" come from?

My guess is the number 1 factor driving costs up is the fact we are all living too damn long.

Thirdly, we dare not question what doctors charge. They are God's chosen healers and are clearly above reproach.

[VITE1]

"The report found that most of the country’s 50 million uninsured people "

Any way to verify this number? How did they arrive at this figure?

I highly doubt that it is accurate.


EDIT:

Looks like the data is from 2008:
At Risk: Pre-Existing Conditions Could Affect 1 in 2 Americans: | HealthCare.gov (http://www.healthcare.gov/center/reports/preexisting.html)

And heres a detailed breakdown of those who do not have insurance.

Many Can afford it they just decide to spend their money someplace else.


http://grandrants.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/risch-chart-of-uninsured.jpg?w=450&h=347

47 Million Uninsured? More Like 6 Million « Grand Rants (http://grandrants.wordpress.com/2009/08/24/47-million-uninsured-more-like-6-million/)

And to those of you who keep calling for Single Payer or Socialized medicine please show me a government program that, over time, does not become a power center and fails in it mission.

We need to fix HC. Why are we not getting more Doctors? Because Madicare limits the amount of new Doctors.

Why not Tort reform? Low end is 10% of all test and procedures are done to CYA Doctors from Law suits.


Prescription drug cost? Why is it in the USA ALL pharmacies have to buy through a small select group of Master distributors?

There are dozens of thing we can do and have seen done fro around the world to reduce costs and get more people covered WITHOUT having the government run it.

[NB2K]

Many Can afford it they just decide to spend their money someplace else.That's a fact, right there.

VITE1, if you ever get down to Louisiana, look me up for a beer or three.