Tuning Q & A?

[edcmat-l1]

Anyone wanna start a tuning Q & A? Maybe make it a sticky?

[Munch]

I'm up for it. I could ask at least a dozen questions off the top of my head.

[Y2Kvert4me]

I'm up for it. I could ask at least a dozen questions off the top of my head.So ask. :D

[71corv]

I'll start with a question for Ed. Had my Z06 dynoed last March when you were in Portsmouth(?) I think. Tracked the car 4 or 5 times this year with no apparent problems (miss,etc). Do I need to have several pulls made to check if all the settings are still the same or if there is a problem? Thanks,

Gene :drivingskid:

[edcmat-l1]

I'll start with a question for Ed. Had my Z06 dynoed last March when you were in Portsmouth(?) I think. Tracked the car 4 or 5 times this year with no apparent problems (miss,etc). Do I need to have several pulls made to check if all the settings are still the same or if there is a problem? Thanks,

Gene :drivingskid:

No, tune won't change. I do some things that keep them very stable. I've had guys come back 6-8 months after a tune, and put down virtually the same numbers as when they were tuned. Had a maggie GTO customer, who a year after being tuned, made within 2 HP. That was at 530 rwhp. 2 hp difference is well within % error.

Had a C6 LS2 that made exactly, almost to the hundredth of a HP, 6 months after be tuned.

[edcmat-l1]

I'm up for it. I could ask at least a dozen questions off the top of my head.

Shoot........

[Munch]

Is a tune still necessary when adding a nitrous system using a controller such as "The Interface" by Harris? And if so, what's involved?

[71corv]

Thanks for the info, Ed. As I've posted before, the car pulls like crazy coming off all the turns whether in 2nd or 3rd gear. Surprises a lot of people.

Gene :drivingskid:

[edcmat-l1]

Is a tune still necessary when adding a nitrous system using a controller such as "The Interface" by Harris? And if so, what's involved?

I don't know exactly what that one does.

I would always recommend at least having a car dynoed after installing a nitrous system. Sometimes these cars are pretty lean to begin with (esp after a header install) so combine that with maybe a dirty MAF, a build up of carbon in the chambers, and it could be a bad situation. At least checking it on a dyno will let you know where you're at A/F wise.

[Munch]

What exactly does the torque management do on the A4 cars? I know you told me mine was turned off when you tuned my car but I'd like to know what exactly it did and what benefit comes from turning it off.

Thanks

[edcmat-l1]

What exactly does the torque management do on the A4 cars? I know you told me mine was turned off when you tuned my car but I'd like to know what exactly it did and what benefit comes from turning it off.

Thanks

It uses either timing or ETC to decrease the amount of power the engine is making, right before, and during an upshift. It is supposed to help the trans live (that's what everyone says) but I tend to believe it is more for comfort. The engineers don't want customers coming in complaining about harsh shifts.

Turning it off, or decreasing it substantially, makes the trans shift quicker, more firmly, and lessens the time the clutch packs are slipping, which some trans builders say is better for the trans than the slow gradual shifts which tend to let the clutch packs and bands spend more time partially engaged and slipping.

[Vet4jdc]

It uses either timing or ETC to decrease the amount of power the engine is making, right before, and during an upshift. It is supposed to help the trans live (that's what everyone says) but I tend to believe it is more for comfort. The engineers don't want customers coming in complaining about harsh shifts.

Turning it off, or decreasing it substantially, makes the trans shift quicker, more firmly, and lessens the time the clutch packs are slipping, which some trans builders say is better for the trans than the slow gradual shifts which tend to let the clutch packs and bands spend more time partially engaged and slipping.

So Ed....if you have an A4 and simply want a little more agressive shift but don't plan on going out and drag racing with it, which would you recommend?

For the average daily driver, would you simply decrease it or turn it off completely?

What is the approximate cost to bring it by Va Speed and have this procedure done? (I live and work in Va Beach)

[edcmat-l1]

So Ed....if you have an A4 and simply want a little more agressive shift but don't plan on going out and drag racing with it, which would you recommend?

For the average daily driver, would you simply decrease it or turn it off completely?

What is the approximate cost to bring it by Va Speed and have this procedure done? (I live and work in Va Beach)

It depends on several factors. First is how it responds to certain settings. Some respond better than others. Also depends on how aggressive the owner wants it.

I usually start with about 50% decrease in TM, along with shift adjustments.

As for cost, it's 400 for a dyno tune for a bolt on car.

[Munch]

In regards to wideband sensors... It seems to me (who knows very little) that you would need 2, 1 for each bank. Would running one on each side be overkill or ideal and why?

[Eagleeye]

Have an '01Z with 40,ooo miles. Only non stock item is Halltech CAI. Runs smooth but han never had a "tune". Just installed new MSD wires and NGK plugs. I live between Richmond and Williamsburg Virginia...Recommended Tuner ?

[Vet4jdc]

Have an '01Z with 40,ooo miles. Only non stock item is Halltech CAI. Runs smooth but han never had a "tune". Just installed new MSD wires and NGK plugs. I live between Richmond and Williamsburg Virginia...Recommended Tuner ?

see Ed at Virginia Speed

[edcmat-l1]

Have an '01Z with 40,ooo miles. Only non stock item is Halltech CAI. Runs smooth but han never had a "tune". Just installed new MSD wires and NGK plugs. I live between Richmond and Williamsburg Virginia...Recommended Tuner ?

Me, of course LOL :seeya:

[Vet4jdc]

It depends on several factors. First is how it responds to certain settings. Some respond better than others. Also depends on how aggressive the owner wants it.

I usually start with about 50% decrease in TM, along with shift adjustments.

As for cost, it's 400 for a dyno tune for a bolt on car.

I would love to do it but with my current pay scale and the SO not working, I just don't have an extra $400 laying around to make my tranny shift a little nicer? :o_o:

[Eagleeye]

Ed... PM sent

[edcmat-l1]

I would love to do it but with my current pay scale and the SO not working, I just don't have an extra $400 laying around to make my tranny shift a little nicer? :o_o:

Hope you find something soon. I'm sure you have much more important things to worry about rather than tuning.

Ed... PM sent

Email sent.........

[2ez 2spd]

Hi Ed I have never met you but you have been recommended to me by every Rat Pack member I have met and I would like to take advantage of this Q & A.

I have a 97 A4 for a year and a half I have always wondered if it has some tuning done to it because of the way it shifts (hits fairly hard) I have never been in any other C5 so I really have nothing to compare it to. After checking the rear end I found out that the original 2.73 were changed to 3.42 out of a Z found this out by the tag on it. I read a post one time that stated that if the gears were changed it had to be tuned to shift correct with the new gears is this true? if so then I'm sure it has been tuned and I ques the torque management has been removed or reduced? if the torque management has been changed is it a permanent or can it be put back to the default? is their anyway to find out what has been changed without going through the motions of a real tune? if not maybe one day I'll bring it to you to have it dyno & tuned and you can tell me what I have.

I'm really not looking to change anything right now I'm still trying to figure out everything that has been done to it before it was mine. I feel like I should figure out what I have before I start changing anything.

Thanks for any info,
Kevin

[edcmat-l1]

Hi Ed I have never met you but you have been recommended to me by every Rat Pack member I have met and I would like to take advantage of this Q & A.

I have a 97 A4 for a year and a half I have always wondered if it has some tuning done to it because of the way it shifts (hits fairly hard) I have never been in any other C5 so I really have nothing to compare it to. After checking the rear end I found out that the original 2.73 were changed to 3.42 out of a Z found this out by the tag on it. I read a post one time that stated that if the gears were changed it had to be tuned to shift correct with the new gears is this true? if so then I'm sure it has been tuned and I ques the torque management has been removed or reduced? if the torque management has been changed is it a permanent or can it be put back to the default? is their anyway to find out what has been changed without going through the motions of a real tune? if not maybe one day I'll bring it to you to have it dyno & tuned and you can tell me what I have.

I'm really not looking to change anything right now I'm still trying to figure out everything that has been done to it before it was mine. I feel like I should figure out what I have before I start changing anything.

Thanks for any info,
Kevin

If it doesn't bounce off the rev limiter on a WOT shift, it's been tuned. At least the trans portion has been tuned.

Only way to know what's been done is to pull the tune and do a compare.

You can always put it back to stock. TM or whatever. It can always be un-done

[Sneaks]

Adding a wet N20 system, with Microedge controller, to my C5. Vortex Rammer, Pacesetter shorty headers, Borla catback for mods. The only things changed when I had it tuned were the shift points, the TM reduced, and the fan on/off temps changed.
Won't be tracking the car. Adding the N20 for the fun factor and to get up to speed quicker when we have our MESV cruises. :D
Since I don't run a wideband, should I have it tuned after the install and pull a couple degrees of timing to be safe? Or, am I going to be OK with that small of a shot of juice and leave things alone?
:popcorns:

[edcmat-l1]

Adding a wet N20 system, with Microedge controller, to my C5. Vortex Rammer, Pacesetter shorty headers, Borla catback for mods. The only things changed when I had it tuned were the shift points, the TM reduced, and the fan on/off temps changed.
Won't be tracking the car. Adding the N20 for the fun factor and to get up to speed quicker when we have our MESV cruises. :D
Since I don't run a wideband, should I have it tuned after the install and pull a couple degrees of timing to be safe? Or, am I going to be OK with that small of a shot of juice and leave things alone?
:popcorns:

Depends on a few factors. How much do you want to spray? If it's tuned already, are you sure they didn't lean on it, or add any timing? If it's been tuned, I think you should have it checked at least. Dynoed, scanned, check A/F with a WB.

If you're only going to spray it with say 75 hp, you probably don't have to do a thing. If you wanna hit it with 100+, then you need to tune for it.

[Sneaks]

Depends on a few factors. How much do you want to spray? If it's tuned already, are you sure they didn't lean on it, or add any timing? If it's been tuned, I think you should have it checked at least. Dynoed, scanned, check A/F with a WB.

If you're only going to spray it with say 75 hp, you probably don't have to do a thing. If you wanna hit it with 100+, then you need to tune for it.

Thanks Ed. I appreciate some expert input. Going to start with the 75 jet, and see how it performs.
I plan on coming down with Kevin when he picks up his "cruiser" from the 427 build. Can't wait to see the shop. :thumbs:

[Munch]

If you take out timing for the nitrous hit won't that affect performance when you're not spraying? How does that work exactly?

[Sneaks]

If you take out timing for the nitrous hit won't that affect performance when you're not spraying? How does that work exactly?

Yes it will. From what I understand, there are certain controller interfaces that will pull timing ONLY when you are spraying. This leaves your timing alone when driving normal, so as not to decrease your power.
I know the Microedge controller has an interface that works this way. :yesnod:

[edcmat-l1]

If you take out timing for the nitrous hit won't that affect performance when you're not spraying? How does that work exactly?

Short answer is yes. But, on a small hit (75 hp) chances are you can tune it where you can use your spray without having to pull any timing. Rule of thumb is 2 degrees per 50 hp, but I rarely pull out any timing on a 75 shot. I usually start with tuning the timing on the low side of the "window" (the range of timing, usually 4 degrees or so, where increasing or decreasing it yields little to no changes in power output) and just let her roll.

Yes it will. From what I understand, there are certain controller interfaces that will pull timing ONLY when you are spraying. This leaves your timing alone when driving normal, so as not to decrease your power.
I know the Microedge controller has an interface that works this way. :yesnod:

I def like using some type of controller with the bigger hits. I was running a progressive controller on a big fogger back in about '93-'94. Tuned a TS car with 2 stages, one 500hp fogger on a controller, and one 250hp plate.

The newer electronic ones are cool. Kyle (stonabones) runs one. Very, very tunable. Comes in handy trying to get a C5 down the track on a 250 shot without leaving a trail of broken goodies!! :drivingskid:

[thegreenman]

Hey Ed,

I was doing a little spirited driving the other day, about 30 degrees outside. I threw a P1011 code, which is for the MAF. I haven't troubleshot it yet, but I plan on checking the wires, cleaning the MAF sensor then start logging my next spirited cruise. Do you know of any other issues that could throw off the MAF sensor?

Do you know of anyone with a C6 putting in a honeycomb before the MAF to straighten/smooth out the air flow? Do you think this is worth looking into or would I be better getting this tuned out?

[edcmat-l1]

Hey Ed,

I was doing a little spirited driving the other day, about 30 degrees outside. I threw a P1011 code, which is for the MAF. I haven't troubleshot it yet, but I plan on checking the wires, cleaning the MAF sensor then start logging my next spirited cruise. Do you know of any other issues that could throw off the MAF sensor?

Do you know of anyone with a C6 putting in a honeycomb before the MAF to straighten/smooth out the air flow? Do you think this is worth looking into or would I be better getting this tuned out?

I'll do some research tomorrow and post up.

[thegreenman]

I'll do some research tomorrow and post up.

Don't be surprised if I screw up my tune so bad I need to have it towed to you for a fix. :headbutt:

[edcmat-l1]

Don't be surprised if I screw up my tune so bad I need to have it towed to you for a fix.

STEP AWAY FROM THE TUNING SOFTWARE!!!!!:stop:

Send me an email and I'll send ya an update. [email protected]

[thegreenman]

STEP AWAY FROM THE TUNING SOFTWARE!!!!!:stop:

Send me an email and I'll send ya an update. [email protected]

:above::lol:

[Shawn @ Va Speed]

Hey Ed,i have a 346 with a set of hand ported 241's,252-262 cam,5000 stall th400 and a s60 rear.If i bring it for a tune can you get all the power i know it will make.Should be around 600rwhp and 575tq n/a.

[thegreenman]

Hey Ed,i have a 346 with a set of hand ported 241's,252-262 cam,5000 stall th400 and a s60 rear.If i bring it for a tune can you get all the power i know it will make.Should be around 600rwhp and 575tq n/a.

Ed will probably get 700HP out of it. Give him a shout Monday. :lolsmile:

[edcmat-l1]

Hey Ed,i have a 346 with a set of hand ported 241's,252-262 cam,5000 stall th400 and a s60 rear.If i bring it for a tune can you get all the power i know it will make.Should be around 600rwhp and 575tq n/a.

:skep:Uh, please stop spamming the site, or I'll get the Admin to ban you.....:leaving:

[edcmat-l1]

Ed will probably get 700HP out of it. Give him a shout Monday. :lolsmile:

I could get 700 rwhp out of that set up........with a 600 shot of NAWZ!!! :rofl:

[Munch]

I could get 700 rwhp out of that set up........with a 600 shot of NAWZ!!! :rofl:

Don't do it Ed, you'll blow the floorpan off!

[Sneaks]

I could get 700 rwhp out of that set up........with a 600 shot of NAWZ!!! :rofl:

Is that going to be one big shot, or two stages? :D

[Munch]

When you tune a car that doesn't already have a wideband do you just stick a sensor up the tailpipe or do you replace one of the existing O2 sensors while you tune?

Also, I want to install a wideband on my coupe but am a little confused on where to mount it. Some people say in the X pipe which sounds good to me but the manufacturer and a lot of other people say it needs to go before the cat (I have LG hi-flo cats). If I put it before the cat I worry that it will only be reading one bank. What should I do?

I'm putting the wideband in because I am adding a nitrous kit to the car if that matters.

Thanks

[Sneaks]

Some replace an O2, and some stick a sensor up the pipe.
My thinking on the placement of the sensor is the same as yours. If its in the X-pipe, it will be reading both banks, rather than one. When I finally get around to installing mine, thats where it's going.
:thumbs:

[Munch]

But do you have cats?

[thegreenman]

When you tune a car that doesn't already have a wideband do you just stick a sensor up the tailpipe or do you replace one of the existing O2 sensors while you tune?

Also, I want to install a wideband on my coupe but am a little confused on where to mount it. Some people say in the X pipe which sounds good to me but the manufacturer and a lot of other people say it needs to go before the cat (I have LG hi-flo cats). If I put it before the cat I worry that it will only be reading one bank. What should I do?

I'm putting the wideband in because I am adding a nitrous kit to the car if that matters.

Thanks

Don't take this to the bank, but this is what I have read on the internet and that has to be factual because it is on the internet.

The wideband is supposed to be installed before the cats (between cat and headers). When being tuned with a probe in the tailpipe it isn't as accurate.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LM1_Manual.pdf

Think about what the catalytic converter does.

HowStuffWorks "What is a catalytic converter and how does it work?" (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question66.htm)

"A catalytic converter is a device that uses a catalyst to convert three harmful compounds in car exhaust into harmless compounds."

If you have a wideband in after the cats, it is not reading the actual output of your engine. For example, if you are running rich the cat will try to burn off the excess gas and your wideband will not report the actual engine output.

You can you tune with a wideband after the cats or in the tailpipe it just woun't be as accruate.

Or you could do it the easy way, take it down to Ed @c VA Speed.

[Munch]

I ordered my wideband yesterday and I don't want to have to pull a header off to install it. Like I stated earlier I worry that I will only be reading one bank. I was hoping Ed would see this and give me his professional opinion and hopefully I am just worrying too much about the bank thing. I also wonder if there is already a bung in my headers or pipes that I can use but I'm too lazy to jack it up and look under there.

Dammit... BRB

[Munch]

OK, so where the F am I supposed to mount this thing? The cats pretty much cover the collector and I can't put it in a single tube.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/Dr_Munch/100_2856.jpg

[Y2Kvert4me]

You can put it after the cats if those bungs are unused.

It's an oxygen sensor, not a gas analyzer. Cats do not create oxygen.


:cheers:

[Munch]

You can put it after the cats if those bungs are unused.

It's an oxygen sensor, not a gas analyzer. Cats do not create oxygen.


BUT! The company and everyone says do not put after the cats!

I'm just tellin ya what they say. I'm gettin a little frustrated with this whole thing. :banghead:

Maybe just remove the cats?

On a side note: Stainless clamps should have stainless bolts, just sayin.

[Y2Kvert4me]

I guess I see it like this:

Anytime you see a dynograph posted on the net with afr line included, most were done so via a probe in the tailpipe. Are all of those cars catless? And if not, why does everyone seemingly love to scrutinize afr if those sensing methods were deemed bogus to begin with? :skep:

Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.


:cheers:

[thegreenman]

BUT! The company and everyone says do not put after the cats!

I'm just tellin ya what they say. I'm gettin a little frustrated with this whole thing. :banghead:

Maybe just remove the cats?

On a side note: Stainless clamps should have stainless bolts, just sayin.

Removing the cats would work. Search CF and Google, a lot of info posted about this subject. Call Ed, he tunes in his sleep.

I am no expert on this topic, but believe what I have been told by many sources.

[Munch]

Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.

Good point, the sole purpose is to hook it to my nitrous controller so if it goes lean or rich during a spray it will shut down the nitrous before the motor goes boom. I guess if I calibrate the controller during normal operation then it would still see a dangerous change and do it's job.

I'd offer you a cookie for your sage advice but there's been enough cookie teasing around here for the time being.

:cheers:

[thegreenman]

I guess I see it like this:

Anytime you see a dynograph posted on the net with afr line included, most were done so via a probe in the tailpipe. Are all of those cars catless? And if not, why does everyone seemingly love to scrutinize afr if those sensing methods were deemed bogus to begin with? :skep:

Mount it where I suggested, get a feel for it's normal readings and response, and go from there. You may not see "ideal", but after using it a bit you should be able detect "abnormal", and that's all a gauge is really good for anyways (if you even happen to see it when your foot goes down).

Fine-tuning, logging/detecting slight differences between banks is way beyond your intended goal, you will never accomplish that with a single gauge.


:cheers:

I agree with this point, I suppose it doesn't matter if you just want an indicator that something is wrong. It is the same idea when modding and using the same dyno, we need a known baseline to see if the mods help or hurt.

[edcmat-l1]

Hi Guys,

Haven't been on in a while. Sorry for being a slackazz!

AS for WB location, cats, etc. Couple things to remember here. First, Aftermarket high flow cats aren't very efficient. They don't work real well when they do work. If you wanna see when they are and are not working, log your upstream and downstream O2s. When the patterns match, the cats aren't working.

Next is, tailpipe sampling with WB O2s. Under WOT the cats "turn off" so there is no real substantial difference between upstream or downstream sampling. Sure there may be a couple tenths of a point (.2) but considering we aren't using lab grade sensors and gas benches, that's close enough for government work LOL. The reason they turn off is there is too much volume running through them ,and they just can't process it.

It's also important to understand the relationship between fuel trims and catalytic converters. Most people think fuel trims oscillate in order to keep A/F around stoich. While that is a convenient side effect, they actually oscillate to alternately douse the cats with oxygen. The main job of the cats is to store and release oxygen (oxidation), the second one being reduction, which also requires oxygen.

In the first graph, you'll see 2 oscillating wave forms. The lower one is an upstream O2, the upper one being downstream. In this scenario, the cats are not working. Notice the slight time delay from the upstream to downstream reaction.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p58/edcmat-l1/96Avenger02sensupd3D7.jpg

In this second one, this is in decel mode, and fuel cut off. You can see the distinct delay from the upstream to downstream reaction.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p58/edcmat-l1/96Avenger02sensondD9B.jpg

In this graph, we have an operational cat. Notice the downstream flat line. What would appear to be a "rich" condition reported by the downstream O2 (higher than .500mv) is actually what it should be showing. Remember it's an OXYGEN sensor. It can only report what leftover O2 it sees. Also remember it's the job of the cats to store oxygen. So, in this case, the sensor is reporting an OXYGEN DEFICIENT condition, which is what it should be when the cats are working.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p58/edcmat-l1/96Avenger02sens.wn8A4.jpg

The main reason that aftermarket headers and cats set P0420/P0430 codes is because the cats don't work well, and the computer ends up seeing a pattern most similar to the top graph.

Graphs courtesy of edcmat-l1's former days as an emissions/diagnostics specialist LOL

[Munch]

Did you just say to put the wideband in the X-Pipe? That's what I heard but I wanna make sure. :)

[edcmat-l1]

Did you just say to put the wideband in the X-Pipe? That's what I heard but I wanna make sure. :)

LOL It'll be fine there. It was more to the point of don't be afraid of tail pipe readings at WOT.

[vafirevet]

Ed: I have a 2001 vert with mn6, corsa exhaust and a vararam intake added. I'm considering a tune to help it run better. I don't ever plan on draging it or tracking it but do hit 120-140mph on the highway from time to time when traffic(or lack of) permits. Mostly a weekend cruiser...in nice weather!

Is there any reason to get a tune and what should I expect to achieve if I get one? And do I need an appointment to have it done? Thanks.

Bill

[vafirevet]

I visited Va Speed this morning and have an appointment for a tune on Tuesday next week. We'll see how that works out.

[leec4ce]

Ed tuned my C4/LT4 a couple of weeke ago and I am very pleased. :hurray: You will be pleased :above:

[vafirevet]

Glad to hear that. Thanks.

Bill