Long term care insurance

[donuts]

Anyone have a policy or have looked into it to know the in’s and outs?

[markids77]

I have no experience there but can tell the story I am living through right now.
Both of my Parents are 90 this year. Mom has early stage dementia and severe short term memory loss. Dad has both severe balance and mobility issues. They will enter an assisted living facility by the end of this month. The facility requires demonstrated income (or savings) to cover at least 2 years of "initial contract" level of care to admit them.
Both have retirement benefits as retired educators, some savings, a decent annuity. They wisely deeded the house to we 3 siblings many years back shielding the property from seizure for back care bills. We, (3 siblings) of course, are all willing to liquidate the property for their support if needed. Medicaid can seize properties to liquidate for outstanding care bills if cash runs out.

Our situation is probably different from yours, but I hope the information provided has helped a bit.

[Joey777]

Just anecdotal info from me so take it for what it’s worth. I have a buddy from work that got a policy in the late 90’s. He and his wife are DINKS like us. His policy is thru Prudential. One of the few companies still offering this type policy due to the high cost of long-term care. Many other companies got out of writing these policies due to the spiraling costs of long term care. He said it was really pricey and the payout may not be enough when/if he and/or his wife needs it. Medicare doesn’t pay enough to get into quality long term care facilities. He said it would be much more cost effective to just take a few Fentinyle pills if they reach that point in life. It sucks to get old.

[04 commemorative]

He said it would be much more cost effective to just take a few Fentinyle pills if they reach that point in life. It sucks to get old.

(Fentanyl ...Yeah but then whom ever would get their life insurance $$ won't.

[Yadkin]

My parents did this, spent a lot for it, realized very little. You are better off investing that money and then paying cash for services.

[donuts]

$300/mo for 10 years is $36k plus 6%. Nursing home expense is minimum $250/day

[Swany00]

my FIL had it, spent a lot of money to get it and we got a partial refund when I read the fine print on what was going to be provided (when he got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, he'd been paying on it for years). He wanted to stay at home and the policy he had was pretty useless for reimbursement or the care he wanted (key word being the care he wanted).

It didn't work for his wishes but if you're just going to stick them in a home, it might work for that. I'm sure there may be different policies but I was really disappointed in how much he had spent in respect to the care he wanted (to stay at home with his dog).

[Joey777]

$250/day is basic care. More advanced care (dimentia) will currently run 10-12k a month. A fentanyl OD is a grey area that life insurance has to payoff on - was it one or ten pills consumed? Getting old sucks!

[Yadkin]

If you have to pay someone to feed you and wipe your ass it's time to call Hospice.

[ZipZap]

I took care of this for two parents. Just make sure folks are comfortable and safe. LTC is so much like extended warranty now it's stupid.

[Joey777]

OP, the bottom line is how much/how long will a policy pay for long-term/critical care pay. Anyplace that offers more than feeding you and wiping your ass is REALY expensive. Project out what those costs will be in 10 or 20 years and see if what they are offering will cover them. Good luck.

[donuts]

Example. My brother is 65 and is now disabled from RA issues and perhaps bone cancer, at least bone disease. Medicare and his supplement pays for a lot but when he’s not admitted into hospital and sitting at home in between stays he needs help or needs to be in nursing home. Medicare and supplement don’t pay for either. Long term care would pay for a lot of the home health he needs and perhaps even the nursing home stay up to the LTC limits. Instead he has to pay out of pocket until he’s out of cash then Medicaid will kick in and cover nursing home but he won’t have any control of where. It’s not obvious to him yet that he is just another infection away from the grave,

[donuts]

If you have to pay someone to feed you and wipe your ass it's time to call Hospice.

I’ve known folk who couldn’t feed themselves and definitely could wipe their own ass moreless get to the bathroom under their own power.. but their minds were sharp

[Joey777]

How about invest the cash, you would otherwise invest in a LTC policy, into T-bills and cut out the middleman?

[Frankie the Fink]

Prob a long post, way back before she retired in 2006 my wife was offered his and her separate LTC plans from the Federal gov't. An INCREDIBLE bargain at the time, adjusted for inflation and the premiums were $60/month for her and $75/month for me. Included in-home care and caregiver reimbursement (even if it was a relative). My financial advisors couldn't believe the plan was so good and the gov't changed it the next year because of that I think.

Fast forward to THIS June, after all those years of steady, low premiums the plan just hit us up with a 45% increase this September, another 45% increase next year and a 43% increase in 2006. We will be paying approx $800/month for both of us (I'm 73 and she is 71). They say its not age, medical related but due to the increased cost of payouts of benefits over the years.

The plan (through CNA Ins) now covers $468/day and a $538,000 max per person in coverage in addition to its many other benefits.

The June letter offers a few options instead of accepting the increase:

a) stop paying premiums and the plan will offer a blanket $24,000 "paid up" LTC max benefit (chicken feed at today's LTC costs)
b) accept a one time cash payout of about $80,000 to EACH of us (approx $160,000 total) and no more coverage (the amount the plan has escrowed for our anticipated care), this may be taxable and the offer expires in October this year
c) reduce the benefits provided to bring premium costs down

We are both in good health and my advisors are going over the options for us. It sucks but the closer to the age when you may need the plan the more expensive it becomes. Bearing in mind most people are in a facility for about 24 months and either die or exit.

So, if I invest the $800/month along with the $160,000 cash (which may be taxable) can I self-insure for LTC through prudent investments.? So, assuming a two year stay and the fact our pension would be applied to LTC montly costs (the other spouse would downsize) can we cover it and be self-insured. There are no guarantees our current LTC premiums won't increase again after 2006.

That is the question I've put to my advisors. To others my advice is to proceed with caution and READ THE FINE PRINT and maybe have a pro go over any offerings. AND BEAR IN MIND that such plans are subject to the regulations of the state in which they are procured.

[Don Rickles]

READ EVERY WORD ON THE POLICIES BEFORE SIGNING!

Assisted Living....is NOT covered LTC

Nursing Home....is partially covered, (only under certain health conditions) and payouts are like pulling teeth.

Senior Retirement home...is NOT covered LTC

Hospice.....is NOT covered under LTC

Long term health care IMO is a rip off. After paying premiums for decades, it did absolutely nothing for either my FIL or MIL.

[Joey777]

Prob a long post, way back before she retired in 2006 my wife was offered his and her separate LTC plans from the Federal gov't. An INCREDIBLE bargain at the time, adjusted for inflation and the premiums were $60/month for her and $75/month for me. Included in-home care and caregiver reimbursement (even if it was a relative). My financial advisors couldn't believe the plan was so good and the gov't changed it the next year because of that I think.

Fast forward to THIS June, after all those years of steady, low premiums the plan just hit us up with a 45% increase this September, another 45% increase next year and a 43% increase in 2006. We will be paying approx $800/month for both of us (I'm 73 and she is 71). They say its not age, medical related but due to the increased cost of payouts of benefits over the years.

The plan (through CNA Ins) now covers $468/day and a $538,000 max per person in coverage in addition to its many other benefits.

The June letter offers a few options instead of accepting the increase:

a) stop paying premiums and the plan will offer a blanket $24,000 "paid up" LTC max benefit (chicken feed at today's LTC costs)
b) accept a one time cash payout of about $80,000 to EACH of us (approx $160,000 total) and no more coverage (the amount the plan has escrowed for our anticipated care), this may be taxable and the offer expires in October this year
c) reduce the benefits provided to bring premium costs down

We are both in good health and my advisors are going over the options for us. It sucks but the closer to the age when you may need the plan the more expensive it becomes. Bearing in mind most people are in a facility for about 24 months and either die or exit.

So, if I invest the $800/month along with the $160,000 cash (which may be taxable) can I self-insure for LTC through prudent investments.? So, assuming a two year stay and the fact our pension would be applied to LTC montly costs (the other spouse would downsize) can we cover it and be self-insured. There are no guarantees our current LTC premiums won't increase again after 2006.

That is the question I've put to my advisors. To others my advice is to proceed with caution and READ THE FINE PRINT and maybe have a pro go over any offerings. AND BEAR IN MIND that such plans are subject to the regulations of the state in which they are procured.

Great info! Scary what LTC plans can cost. My observation is that health care in this country is under tremendous financial pressure. A growing % of the population are using the ER for routine care and the Feds only reimburse a small % of those costs. This is driving the cost of HC plans thru the roof and forcing smaller hospitals to close.

[Frankie the Fink]

READ EVERY WORD ON THE POLICIES BEFORE SIGNING!

Assisted Living....is NOT covered LTC

Nursing Home....is partially covered, (only under certain health conditions) and payouts are like pulling teeth.

Senior Retirement home...is NOT covered LTC

Hospice.....is NOT covered under LTC

Long term health care IMO is a rip off. After paying premiums for decades, it did absolutely nothing for either my FIL or MIL.

Actually they are under the Federal employee LTC plan I explained above, which is why I think they changed it radically the very next year after we signed up. Nursing home/hospice definitely (that is literally the definition of long term care), and of course, within the parameters of the policy.
A senior retirement home? almost certainty not but I'd have to check.

[Don Rickles]

Actually they are under the Federal employee LTC plan I explained above, which is why I think they changed it radically the very next year after we signed up. Nursing home/hospice definitely (that is literally the definition of long term care), and of course, within the parameters of the policy.
A senior retirement home? almost certainty not but I'd have to check.

They play with wording and the level of care needed by the patient.

Listen FtF I just watched the shit occur. You may think it's easy and the money will flow, but it won't! Hospice was NOT LONG TERM, it's under 6 mos. they didn't pay shit. Period

[Steve_R]

How about invest the cash, you would otherwise invest in a LTC policy, into T-bills and cut out the middleman?


This. Like any insurance most who have these policies will pay more in premiums than they ever receive while a few get more back than they paid in. It's how all insurance works. The odds always favor the insurance companies.

[Big bob]

This. Like any insurance most who have these policies will pay more in premiums than they ever receive while a few get more back than they paid in. It's how all insurance works. The odds always favor the insurance companies.


Wait just a damn minute. Isn't that the argument the Tesla driver used and you jumped all over him?:slap:

[donuts]

They play with wording and the level of care needed by the patient.

Listen FtF I just watched the shit occur. You may think it's easy and the money will flow, but it won't! Hospice was NOT LONG TERM, it's under 6 mos. they didn't pay shit. Period

Hospice is paid by Medicare

[Frankie the Fink]

They play with wording and the level of care needed by the patient.

Listen FtF I just watched the shit occur. You may think it's easy and the money will flow, but it won't! Hospice was NOT LONG TERM, it's under 6 mos. they didn't pay shit. Period

So you or someone had a crappy plan, that's lamentable.
And I think Medicare will pay a bit of hospice and not for long.
My Dad went through that.

[Don Rickles]

So you or someone had a crappy plan, that's lamentable.
And I think Medicare will pay a bit of hospice and not for long.
My Dad went through that.

No


I wrote from first hand experience. They manipulated the policy holder.


Imagine some 20/30 something year old comes into your home for 20 minutes evaluates you or your wife while you're having a rarely good day. One simple sentence written by this person who knows shit about you, goes against the policies wording and you're done. Got it?

When you're in the facility, let me know how it works out for you.....or the SO.:cert:

[GTOguy]

$300/mo for 10 years is $36k plus 6%. Nursing home expense is minimum $250/day

??? I was paying $7100 for my mom 3 years ago and now the rates are $12000 per month. She only lasted for 2 months before she passed. I was prepared for the long haul with my own savings and investments, as she had zip.

My dad saw what was coming years ago and handled it himself. He did NOT want to go into assisted living or a nursing home. He wasn't a sit-in-a-full-diaper-spouting-gibberish type. I hope I have the guts to do the same when the time comes.

I have seen many, many friends burn through entire life savings and assets to keep parents with zero quality of life alive for years and years after they've lost all cognitive abilities. And here they are, in their 60's and 70's themselves, with no assets left for their own care. It's sad. 10-12k a month for 9 or ten years burns up a lot of assets.

[Frankie the Fink]

No


I wrote from first hand experience. They manipulated the policy holder.


Imagine some 20/30 something year old comes into your home for 20 minutes evaluates you or your wife while you're having a rarely good day. One simple sentence written by this person who knows shit about you, goes against the policies wording and you're done. Got it?

When you're in the facility, let me know how it works out for you.....or the SO.:cert:
Whatever.... You can't lay down at the first obstacle when fighting a bureaucracy. It took me a two year battle to get my mother-in-law her just Black Lung benefits for her husband's passing - finally meeting with a Social Security administrative law judge...

[donuts]

So you or someone had a crappy plan, that's lamentable.
And I think Medicare will pay a bit of hospice and not for long.
My Dad went through that.

So you’re saying that there are some good plans ??

[donuts]

??? I was paying $7100 for my mom 3 years ago and now the rates are $12000 per month. She only lasted for 2 months before she passed. I was prepared for the long haul with my own savings and investments, as she had zip.

My dad saw what was coming years ago and handled it himself. He did NOT want to go into assisted living or a nursing home. He wasn't a sit-in-a-full-diaper-spouting-gibberish type. I hope I have the guts to do the same when the time comes.

I have seen many, many friends burn through entire life savings and assets to keep parents with zero quality of life alive for years and years after they've lost all cognitive abilities. And here they are, in their 60's and 70's themselves, with no assets left for their own care. It's sad. 10-12k a month for 9 or ten years burns up a lot of assets.

Brother just got quote for $250/day for a shared room . $325 for a room to himself . He has full mental faculties, his joints and bones are gone. If he had a LTC policy it should pay for nursing home expense.

[Trapper Sean]

I think I agree with the thread consensus.
Ltc can become extremely expensive if any more care than bare minimum is done. Level of medical credentials in long term care is abysmal. Chief nursing officer may be an lpn. Zero nurses of any kind overnight. Med techs thar administrator meds have online training and no drug testing to work.
Next, good (?) Ltc places may flatly refuse some insurance policy you bought. They just say F you, we don't accept that cheap garbage. Good luck.

[GixxerBill RIP]

??? I was paying $7100 for my mom 3 years ago and now the rates are $12000 per month. She only lasted for 2 months before she passed. I was prepared for the long haul with my own savings and investments, as she had zip.

My dad saw what was coming years ago and handled it himself. He did NOT want to go into assisted living or a nursing home. He wasn't a sit-in-a-full-diaper-spouting-gibberish type. I hope I have the guts to do the same when the time comes.

I have seen many, many friends burn through entire life savings and assets to keep parents with zero quality of life alive for years and years after they've lost all cognitive abilities. And here they are, in their 60's and 70's themselves, with no assets left for their own care. It's sad. 10-12k a month for 9 or ten years burns up a lot of assets.

Elder dumping is still a thing and there's a slim to none chance that a court can convict anyone of a criminal charge for doing it.

I've instructed my next of kin to 'accidentally' leave me somewhere out in the middle of nowhere out of cellphone coverage with a canteen of water and a couple energy bars if I ever get in that condition because there's no way in hell some sleezeball assisted living facility is getting their grubby hands on my assets

[donuts]

Pop a few oxi’s and drink them down with a few of your fav adult beverages and you won’t resurface.

[Yadkin]

I’ve known folk who couldn’t feed themselves and definitely could wipe their own ass moreless get to the bathroom under their own power.. but their minds were sharp

Could, or could not?

[BayouCountry]

I purchased an Annuity with a long term care rider. I can’t bring myself to buy insurance, so at least I can say it’s an investment; kind of.

My greatest fear is being a burden on my family. I should spend all the inheritance on hookers and blow, but family first. So here I am leading my lowly life on the river drinking bourbon so I don’t burden my family. lol

[Yadkin]

If you make a decent salary, save and invest wisely, it will be very difficult to outlive your money. My FIL had 24/7 in home care for over a year before he passed away. Then my MIL kept the care for herself for another year. Cost for the care, upkeep of the home was well over $20k/ month. Their estate could have kept her going for decades.

In contrast, my dad had long term care insurance. He made a good salary when he worked but didn't invest wisely. He sold his house, moved into a very nice assisted living facility, almost a country club. But his ltc insurance didn't kick in until maybe his last six months. And there wasn't much left of his estate when he passed.

[donuts]

Could, or could not?

Good catch .. couldn’t wipe their ass.. it would be a shame wouldn’t it

[donuts]

If you make a decent salary, save and invest wisely, it will be very difficult to outlive your money. My FIL had 24/7 in home care for over a year before he passed away. Then my MIL kept the care for herself for another year. Cost for the care, upkeep of the home was well over $20k/ month. Their estate could have kept her going for decades.

In contrast, my dad had long term care insurance. He made a good salary when he worked but didn't invest wisely. He sold his house, moved into a very nice assisted living facility, almost a country club. But his ltc insurance didn't kick in until maybe his last six months. And there wasn't much left of his estate when he passed.

Your dad had perfect timing. That’s all that matters right ??

[Frankie the Fink]

So you’re saying that there are some good plans ??

Yes, however our plan is through the Federal gov't in a group purchase just like Blue Cross/Blue Shield and other health coverage. Such plans do NOT want to lose such a lucrative, large, relatively healty customer base and tend to fulfill their contractual obligations as the policy dictates... Lots of customer complaints or bitching to the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) isn't good for a business.

So, somewhat unique circumstances.

[Yadkin]

Good catch .. couldn’t wipe their ass.. it would be a shame wouldn’t it

At that point life's not living. I'd just call Hospice, stop eating and drinking.

[Frankie the Fink]

Elder dumping is still a thing and there's a slim to none chance that a court can convict anyone of a criminal charge for doing it.

I've instructed my next of kin to 'accidentally' leave me somewhere out in the middle of nowhere out of cellphone coverage with a canteen of water and a couple energy bars if I ever get in that condition because there's no way in hell some sleezeball assisted living facility is getting their grubby hands on my assets

OK - I'm AN NOT ADVOCATING ANYBODY DO THIS, WHATSOEVER, AT ALL.

An interesting news article:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2022-03-29/out-of-state-residents-can-now-seek-medically-assisted-suicide-in-oregon

[Yadkin]

Your dad had perfect timing. That’s all that matters right ??

I don't think timing had anything to do with it.

[Frankie the Fink]

If you make a decent salary, save and invest wisely, it will be very difficult to outlive your money. My FIL had 24/7 in home care for over a year before he passed away. Then my MIL kept the care for herself for another year. Cost for the care, upkeep of the home was well over $20k/ month. Their estate could have kept her going for decades. And prob assuming someone wants to leave nothing for their progeny. (I do)

In contrast, my dad had long term care insurance. He made a good salary when he worked but didn't invest wisely. He sold his house, moved into a very nice assisted living facility, almost a country club. But his ltc insurance didn't kick in until maybe his last six months. And there wasn't much left of his estate when he passed.
$20K/month is approx 1/4 million a year, so in 4 years a cool million, in ONE decade that would be 2-1/2 million (NOT inflation adjusted). I'm betting those kind of assets are a rarity.

Its SUPRISINGLY easy to outlive your savings as many have found out, like my deceased BIL, who when he expired had $5,000 in savings left. That's a FIVE followed by THREE zeroes, after a life of hard work and sacrifice. A serious medical condition, a failed business (through bad timing) or other factors can devastate savings. The man left his wife and daughter basically destitute with a mortgage.

HOWEVER, Medicaid can NOT touch certain things (they changed the "lookback" period recently so transferring assets to others for protection has to be done LONG before a medical issue occurs, usually 5 years, varies by state). Your house, car and other assets are sacrosanct...and IIRC Social Security.

And, as weird as it sounds, a good nursing home vs a bad nursing home, costs are not all that different. To wit, get yourself, or a relative into the BEST you can find with cost as a secondary factor. There are now elder care specialists in legal matters and they aren't that expensive and can be incredible help (again personal experience) - get one.

All of this above is from my intimate knowledge of a very tragic circumstance. We still help my BIL's widow when situations require it.