View Full Version : Architect messed up
This building was built in 2007. Outdoor pavilion with a roof about 60' square and a 25' tall ceiling. Connections of the timber posts to the concrete bases don't follow AITC guidelines and thus rotted.
MadInNc
03-17-2024, 4:59pm
OK. So…. Many decks out there are the same I bet
Looking forward to your next post
Vandelay Industries
03-17-2024, 5:00pm
98588
Here's the applicable AITC (American Institute of Timber Construction) guideline:
What could go wrong? I always encase wood in concrete to ensure the wood stays fresh.
vettemed
03-17-2024, 5:05pm
wood you look at that.
Rodnok1
03-17-2024, 5:12pm
What do you want to bet somebody didn't want to see the anchors so changed the plans.
He also screwed up by creating undrained areas at the bottom of the braces (red rectangles). The red circles point ut termite holes- 20' above the column bases.
For the columns we'll use treated southern pine instead of the original douglas fir. Otherwise same detail.
For the brace bottoms we'll reposition the connector plates and do a chamfer cut on top to ensure drainage. I'll do the same thing for the column blocks.
Vandelay Industries
03-17-2024, 5:20pm
What could go wrong? I always encase wood in concrete to ensure the wood stays fresh.
:iagree:This is how it's done.
Insects can't eat through concrete, so they have no way of getting at the wood this way. :seasix:
What do you want to bet somebody didn't want to see the anchors so changed the plans.
Maybe. However the architect screwed up in two other areas as well; same type of mistakes that I just pointed out.
:iagree:This is how it's done.
Insects can't eat through concrete, so they have no way of getting at the wood this way. :seasix:
:Jeff '79:
They should have called Yadkin. Losers.
They should have called Yadkin. Losers.
They did, just 17 years too late. :Jeff '79:
MadInNc
03-17-2024, 5:34pm
He also screwed up by creating undrained areas at the bottom of the braces (red rectangles). The red circles point ut termite holes- 20' above the column bases.
Thought termite burrowed internally. You’re saying those buggers ate up 20’ in beams in 17 yrs?
Call pest guys, if insured w termite contract they will pay per contract- but you’re out of a job. If they took contract they fix I found out
no time to do it right, always plenty of time and money to do it twice.
Thought termite burrowed internally. You’re saying those buggers ate up 20’ in beams in 17 yrs?
Call pest guys, if insured w termite contract they will pay per contract- but you’re out of a job. If they took contract they fix I found out
I'm saying that the buggers are in there. What route they took is anyone's guess without destructive testing. My guess is from the undrained brace areas.
I've already done my job, and my client, the contractor, will now do his. The owner can decide later if he tries to recoup his costs. If so, then I'll have another job as an expert witness.
Waiting for lawyers to decide cases would risk catastrophic damage as well as lose revenue. Right now the building is permanently closed.
no time to do it right, always plenty of time and money to do it twice.
That' how it works with too many bum contractors. Save a minute- cost the owner hours, maybe weeks, and certainly money.
But this was the architect's fault.
Steve_R
03-17-2024, 5:56pm
Right now the building is permanently closed.
If it’s permanently closed why bother fixing it?
If it’s permanently closed why bother fixing it?
So it can be reopened. Is it the Floriduh sun... :Jeff '79:
Don Rickles
03-17-2024, 6:00pm
wood rots
So does this thread…..
If it’s permanently closed why bother fixing it?
:rofl:
Vandelay Industries
03-17-2024, 6:01pm
It's permanent but only on a temporary basis. Duh.
It's permanent but only on a temporary basis. Duh.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Or, temporarily permanent. :)
That's the terminology that they used on their website. So obviously a smarter person than I wrote it. :Jeff '79:
Vandelay Industries
03-17-2024, 6:30pm
That's the terminology that they used on their website. So obviously a smarter person than I wrote it. :Jeff '79:
Nope, too easy. Not touching that. :)
Nope, too easy. Not touching that. :)
:sissy:
higgyburners
03-18-2024, 1:18am
Do them a favor and walk away from the project...you are not Qualified
Architect messed up
Do you have a copy of the original plans? Is there a detail of the column and masonry bases? Are there as-built plans?
Frankie the Fink
03-18-2024, 7:40am
Right now, with the influx of northeners coming to Florida from inner-city tenements, and subdivisions popping up in every old orange grove - this is "high end" construction around here.
My neighbor had some jackleg Disney friend build his pier and the guy put the upright posts in sone QuikCrete footings instead of "jetting" them into the lakebed. The whole pier tipped sideways during IRMA..
Do you have a copy of the original plans? Is there a detail of the column and masonry bases? Are there as-built plans?
I've asked for them, but so far have received no information if they have them or not. Believe it or not, I've found it rare for an owner to have the original plans to the multi-million dollar building that he owns. If he does have them, they are rolled up in some dusty, neglected space, like on top of an HVAC air handler.
Do them a favor and walk away from the project...you are not Qualified
This is a typical post from you, stupidly disparaging with no knowledge of the subject or the folks involved. Void of substance, just like you.
Fact is, I'm likely the most qualified individual in the region to design this repair. And if it does go through a legal process to obtain funds from the original contractor or architect, I'll most likely get hired by an attorney for $400/ hour as an expert witness. :Jeff '79:
Aerovette
03-18-2024, 2:48pm
Question:
Is an expert witness a witness that is an expert, or an expert at being a witness?
Question:
Is an expert witness a witness that is an expert, or an expert at being a witness?
Preferably the former. Guys that specialize in expert witness work without active field experience can get skewered by the opposition.
I've testified as an expert witness many times over a 25 year period.
I found it very satisfying. Now back to the regular program. :seasix:
I've asked for them, but so far have received no information if they have them or not. Believe it or not, I've found it rare for an owner to have the original plans to the multi-million dollar building that he owns. If he does have them, they are rolled up in some dusty, neglected space, like on top of an HVAC air handler.
I can't imagine an owner of a multi million dollar building not to have plans in the file. And additionally, I would expect a set of as-built plans as well.
The county permit office usually has the plans on file. You may check there. :seasix:
I can't imagine an owner of a multi million dollar building not to have plans in the file. And additionally, I would expect a set of as-built plans as well.
The county permit office usually has the plans on file. You may check there. :seasix:
Counties in NC don't hold onto plans of private infrastructure. Once the C of O is issued, their copies are trashed.
I was surprised myself to find clients/ building owners who had no copies of their building plans. The early part of my career was mostly working on public projects in Massachusetts, New York and Connecticut, and each had dedicated libraries of plans dating back decades.
As a "maker" of plans, we consultants were extremely careful of using the best, most permanent media to deliver to our clients. Ink on mylar.
Winston-Salem was the same. In the last ten years all their water, sewer, drainage and street plans have all been scanned and accessible to me through a web site that I am registered with. And they are all organized using GIS protocols. All I have to do is enter a 911 address and a list of relevant plan sheets are returned.
But private business is far different. Many owners just don't understand the value in a set of original plans or as-builts.
Steve_R
03-18-2024, 6:04pm
Unless you’re the first owner of a building, AND you were involved in the construction, why would you have the plans? We’ve owned 10-12 houses and never had plans except for the one we had built.
Unless you’re the first owner of a building, AND you were involved in the construction, why would you have the plans? We’ve owned 10-12 houses and never had plans except for the one we had built.
Because they are literally worth their weight in gold. :seasix:
Steve_R
03-18-2024, 6:13pm
Because they are literally worth their weight in gold. :seasix:
Perhaps, but that didn’t answer my question. If you buy a 20 year old building, regardless of value, and the plans aren’t available, how do you get them?
VatorMan
03-18-2024, 6:14pm
Question:
Is an expert witness a witness that is an expert, or an expert at being a witness?
A good friend of mine was an engineer with Bechtel and he made more $ being an expert witness than he ever earned during his working stint. He got paid so much per year on retainer as all big engineering lawsuits are postponed many times.
Perhaps, but that didn’t answer my question. If you buy a 20 year old building, regardless of value, and the plans aren’t available, how do you get them?
Once they are gone, they are gone. That's one reason why I say that they are so valuable. Any time you make a renovation you can refer to them, avoiding the time and expense to figure out how stuff was built.
For a simple house, we have the residential building code, basically a cook book on how to build, so most plans will not have any structural details anyway. Those type of house plans just show room dimensions, exterior elevations, and aren't worth all that much.
But for a large commercial building things are different. It has to have structural plans and details. And typically plumbing and HVAC plans. And electrical plans. All the stuff that is hidden by drywall and finish materials. So to repair or renovate a building like that without plans can get expensive.
Anjdog2003
03-18-2024, 6:57pm
Insects can't eat through concrete
Concrete Termite can. :yesnod:
Vandelay Industries
03-18-2024, 6:59pm
So the bottom line is you don't have the plans, the plans are nowhere to be found, but you know for a fact the architect messed up.
OK :spdchk:
Onebadcad
03-18-2024, 7:12pm
What effing loser county in which loser state approved this, AND THEN signed off on the inspection??
If the rest of the country adopted The Miami Code this would not have happened.
****ing amateurs,,, bring in a pro to fix this crap!!
Perhaps, but that didn’t answer my question. If you buy a 20 year old building, regardless of value, and the plans aren’t available, how do you get them?
You hire an architect to do an as-built, as we are doing currently on a commercial building that I have under contract for a client.
So the bottom line is you don't have the plans, the plans are nowhere to be found, but you know for a fact the architect messed up.
OK :spdchk:
It's a timber frame structure, exposed, only thing hidden is the bottom connectors, so we did destructive investigation, so...
Is it the water there in Massachushitts? :Jeff '79:
What effing loser county in which loser state approved this, AND THEN signed off on the inspection??
If the rest of the country adopted The Miami Code this would not have happened.
****ing amateurs,,, bring in a pro to fix this crap!!
The county inspector at the time graduated NC State, but with a degree in basketball...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Burleson
I had an issue with him when I built my house here in 2005. His assistant couldn't read plans, got mad at me when I found out so faked the rest of his inspections, never filing the paperwork. Burleson was a complete asshole, and I had to hire a lawyer and teach him a lesson.
You hire an architect to do an as-built, as we are doing currently on a commercial building that I have under contract for a client.
Ca-ching! How much is the Architect's contract for? Divide that by the weight of a set of plans, and I'm guessing that they cost about what gold is going for...
Ca-ching! How much is the Architect's contract for? Divide that by the weight of a set of plans, and I'm guessing that they cost about what gold is going for...
The buyer employed the architect. I represent the seller. I’m sure it’s many thousands.
markids77
03-18-2024, 7:58pm
That' how it works with too many bum contractors. Save a minute- cost the owner hours, maybe weeks, and certainly money.
But this was the architect's fault.
Only in part because the contractor "just built it to print" instead of doing it correctly, and it passed framing inspection as well. Sharing is caring (the blame)!
Vandelay Industries
03-18-2024, 8:22pm
It's a timber frame structure, exposed, only thing hidden is the bottom connectors, so we did destructive investigation, so...
Is it the water there in Massachushitts? :Jeff '79:
How does that prove "the architect messed up?"
"Expert witness." :funnier:
How does that prove "the architect messed up?"
"Expert witness." :funnier:
It's the most likely reason based on the details that are both exposed and were partially hidden, based on my professional expertise and experience. And I may add, something that you are eminently unqualified to opine on. :Jeff '79:
ZipZap
03-18-2024, 10:41pm
Mine are here. Will go to whomever is after me. Same as last house we built.
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