View Full Version : HVAC/Engineers quick question
Last year I had a small bathroom in the basement flood due to a frozen pipe as the ceiling back wall is an outside wall and the fresh air intake for the furnace runs through the ceiling as well. I have one heat register in the ceiling but it is approx 8 feet from that back wall.
Is it possible to just open up the back of the single heat register and close the vent to put heat above the ceiling or is it necessary to make some other kind of major change. That bathroom rarely gets used and stays warm by just keeping a door at either side open.
I have zero talents or common sense when it comes to home repairs so someone edumecate me.
you can also buy heat trace tape. plug it in, wrap it around the pipe you don't want to freeze, and it will only come on when it gets cold.
one of many options available:
https://www.amazon.com/HEATIT-HISD-6-feet-Heating-Thermostat/dp/B01GYGGLRO/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=heat+trace+cable&qid=1698275681&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
found under "heat trace cable"
Having a bit of an issue picturing what you describe. Maybe Yaddy can draw it at 1/4" scale so he doesn't give you the extra 1/8".
There are really only a couple things besides wasting water. Distance and insulation/heat source.
Luckily, the last poor engineering job I ran into was in 1992 in a Littleton, CO townhome. The jackass builder ran a 1/2" line right above the garage ceiling on the poor side of the insulation. Thing burst while I was at work. Thankfully didn't wreck anything of mine. Was the first time I saw an electrician going after a panel that had a waterfall in it when he got there. WD-40. He probably dumped 20% of a can in that panel:rofl:
This is easy..Not even .5 hammer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem31nvdz58&ab_channel=GuildbrookFarm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGaZSFJpmM0&ab_channel=RobynPerry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhwRlxVSHZ4&ab_channel=FrostKing
Last year I had a small bathroom in the basement flood due to a frozen pipe as the ceiling back wall is an outside wall and the fresh air intake for the furnace runs through the ceiling as well. I have one heat register in the ceiling but it is approx 8 feet from that back wall.
Is it possible to just open up the back of the single heat register and close the vent to put heat above the ceiling or is it necessary to make some other kind of major change. That bathroom rarely gets used and stays warm by just keeping a door at either side open.
I have zero talents or common sense when it comes to home repairs so someone edumecate me.
Of course not. You're a Democrat. My entire family is/was the same. Very cerebral, very intellectual, and very much lacking in common sense and practical survival skills. Yadkin may chime in to save your ass. Let's hope. :seasix:
What is a "ceiling back wall"? Is the pipe in the ceiling, or in the wall? Where did the freeze occur?
What is a "ceiling back wall"? Is the pipe in the ceiling, or in the wall? Where did the freeze occur?
I had no idea, so I just skipped to a solution.
cptlo306
10-25-2023, 8:27pm
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Of course not. You're a Democrat. My entire family is/was the same. Very cerebral, very intellectual, and very much lacking in common sense and practical survival skills. Yadkin may chime in to save your ass. Let's hope. :seasix:
Why bring politics into this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with politics? :slap:
Vandelay Industries
10-25-2023, 8:29pm
TDS strikes again.
Temperature Deviation Syndrome. :leaving:
What is a "ceiling back wall"? Is the pipe in the ceiling, or in the wall? Where did the freeze occur?
The pipe that froze runs along the back wall of the house above the ceiling to the water line to the shower. You can see them behind the shower.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3493
After, don’t want to do that again.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3839
TDS strikes again.
Temperature Deviation Syndrome. :leaving:
I’ll give you that one. :D
The pipe that froze runs along the back wall of the house above the ceiling to the water line to the shower. You can see them behind the shower.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3493
After, don’t want to do that again.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3839
Again, are you talking about the line that runs down the vertical wall, or in the joists? Frankly, you're screwed if it's on the wall unless you do something to actively get heat in that cavity. We only run copper down basement exterior walls, on the inside of the concrete in the finished wall. I have no copper in any exterior stick built wall.
If it's in the joists, then you may have some sort of cold leak from the wall. Again, shouldn't really occur with reasonable design, but still easy to get some remedy there then on the wall.
The pipe that froze runs along the back wall of the house above the ceiling to the water line to the shower. You can see them behind the shower.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3493
After, don’t want to do that again.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3839
So you repaired it by putting it all back as before? Now your asking for a solution?:confused5:
slewfoot
10-25-2023, 9:39pm
How about putting a vent back there and just let the ambient heat flow in. Kinda like opening the doors under the kitchen sink during a cold spell.
Unsuspicious
10-25-2023, 9:42pm
Great Stuff foam your pipe exits
So you repaired it by putting it all back as before? Now your asking for a solution?:confused5:
Yea, I know not smart. Contractor said it wouldn’t happen again, I’m skeptical.
I want to get some warmer air up there to prevent a repeat.
How about putting a vent back there and just let the ambient heat flow in. Kinda like opening the doors under the kitchen sink during a cold spell.
So it was suggested to put another ceiling vent back there that exposes the area above to convection.
Again, are you talking about the line that runs down the vertical wall, or in the joists? Frankly, you're screwed if it's on the wall unless you do something to actively get heat in that cavity. We only run copper down basement exterior walls, on the inside of the concrete in the finished wall. I have no copper in any exterior stick built wall.
If it's in the joists, then you may have some sort of cold leak from the wall. Again, shouldn't really occur with reasonable design, but still easy to get some remedy there then on the wall.
Along the cement wall.
ZipZap
10-26-2023, 12:37am
Along the cement wall.
Something is amiss. I live at 7600 feet in CO and never have an issue with an interior basement fixture.
I don't know what issue you have, but there's absolutely no chance that a block or concrete wall gets below freezing in an occupied house if it's anywhere near right.
Something is amiss. I live at 7600 feet in CO and never have an issue with an interior basement fixture.
I don't know what issue you have, but there's absolutely no chance that a block or concrete wall gets below freezing in an occupied house if it's anywhere near right.
I agree, but there is an issue. The furnace closet is also in the bathroom across from the wall with the pipes. There is a large fresh air supply duct that runs from that wall to the furnace above the ceiling. My guess is that’s causing the issue. The previous owners built this room themselves and there were no permits or inspections so I’m not confident it was done to code. I recently had a new furnace and a/c installed and the city inspector was a bit concerned.
That’s why I thought if I could redirect some warm air up there it may help.
Rodnok1
10-26-2023, 6:01am
If you are asking to heat inside the wall/ceiling the answer is no. Mold would be the main reason.
dvarapala
10-26-2023, 9:27am
Yea, I know not smart. Contractor said it wouldn’t happen again, I’m skeptical.
I want to get some warmer air up there to prevent a repeat.
Advise form the Land of Never-Frost:
Don't they make little electric blankets that you can wrap around your pipes? :waiting:
Advise form the Land of Never-Frost:
Don't they make little electric blankets that you can wrap around your pipes? :waiting:
Yes but the walls and ceiling have already been repaired. Lived in Maine for years and never had this problem.
dvarapala
10-26-2023, 9:49am
Yes but the walls and ceiling have already been repaired.
Well next time it bursts and the walls are open you can install some. :D
So you repaired it by putting it all back as before? Now your asking for a solution?:confused5:
He had to get it ready for Joe's next campaign.
Question: Did the OP's contractor at least put pipe insulation on the exposed run of pipe in question? Also, here in the South, we have two ways to deal with this kind of thing. First, turn off the water at the meter and the house cut off and open the taps, so there's not so much water to freeze in the pipes.
The second method is to drip or trickle water from a few faucets. Since you already know this line is susceptible to freezing, maybe trickle that one?
The third method, perhaps not invented by, but perfected by, my parents, is to get up every two hours and flush all the toilets, and turn on every tap and run it for a minute.
I have successfully used all three methods, never a broken pipe, thankfully. Of course, our hard freezes are usually just a few days a year, so easier to get through.
GTOguy
10-26-2023, 11:33am
Why bring politics into this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with politics? :slap:
Because I just couldn't help myself. No harm done. You don't appear to be offended. Carry on. :seasix:
ifin this were my house and I wanted to half ass it, here is what I would do.
I would go to a box store and buy an 8x8 or whatever small return grille I could find. I would then cut it into the drywall ceiling, nearest to where the pipe split as possible. That could allow air movement. I would then turn around in the same aisle and buy the magnetic return grill cover materials they sell, and cut a piece to fit your return grille. I would place it over the grill prior to cooling season, to prevent cool air into that moist cavity and creating black mold.
Since its not my home, I got nothing.
dvarapala
10-26-2023, 1:33pm
The third method, perhaps not invented by, but perfected by, my parents, is to get up every two hours and flush all the toilets, and turn on every tap and run it for a minute.
I can only imagine what your upbringing was like. :funniest:
I can only imagine what your upbringing was like. :funniest:
Fun fact: We moved to Houston when I was a kid, from a more northern climate where houses were built to take freezing weather. Our first Winter, we're all watching the newscasters go crazy talking about "pets, pipes, and plants." Mom and Dad are like "WTF, are these people nuts? It's only going to be in the teens." They were laughing like the people here were all morons.
Fast forward to that night when I'm awakened, handed a hair dryer, and told to get in the attic and heat the pipes to the sink on the north side of the house. Fortunately, I got them thawed with no breaks.
That was the beginning of the every two hour rounds, after that.
I agree, but there is an issue. The furnace closet is also in the bathroom across from the wall with the pipes. There is a large fresh air supply duct that runs from that wall to the furnace above the ceiling. My guess is that’s causing the issue. The previous owners built this room themselves and there were no permits or inspections so I’m not confident it was done to code. I recently had a new furnace and a/c installed and the city inspector was a bit concerned.
That’s why I thought if I could redirect some warm air up there it may help.
My guess is you have outside air in whatever cavity where it's freezing. Why a big fresh air duct? Every HVAC system I had never sourced outside air except for combustion. All returns are inside the home.
My guess is you have outside air in whatever cavity where it's freezing. Why a big fresh air duct? Every HVAC system I had never sourced outside air except for combustion. All returns are inside the home.
Correct, it's a combustion intake for a high efficiency furnace.
Correct, it's a combustion intake for a high efficiency furnace.
How large is the duct?
Much like opening cabinets during incredibly cold spells, you might be able to just put a false register in the ceiling to get the temp up in the space.
Otherwise, it sounds like they screwed up enough to require you to remove drywall. and seal leaks.:sadangel:
Yea, I know not smart. Contractor said it wouldn’t happen again, I’m skeptical.
I want to get some warmer air up there to prevent a repeat.
Well, since he's a contractor, obviously he knows best. :spdchk:
When it does, rest assured that he will never return your call.
higgyburners
10-27-2023, 1:24am
Because I just couldn't help myself. No harm done. You don't appear to be offended. Carry on. :seasix:
Weak...do better:)
Tikiman
10-27-2023, 5:21am
Why bring politics into this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with politics? :slap:
Thread is about pipes. Pedo Joe could send his son up to help out. He's something of a pipe expert.
Correct, it's a combustion intake for a high efficiency furnace.
if its combustion air, it should be a 2 or 3 inch pvc pipe, depending upon furnace size. Are you sure it isnt fresh air to an energy recovery ventilator?
Unsuspicious
10-27-2023, 7:29am
I had an exhaust blowing right at the ac unit like 15 or so inches away with obvious rust due to the setup. Threw a 90 on it to redirect. Seems like the original layout surely wasn't code.
Other than it being acidic steam, wonder if they could use the warmth of exhaust flue to warm problem area
I had an exhaust blowing right at the ac unit like 15 or so inches away with obvious rust due to the setup. Threw a 90 on it to redirect. Seems like the original layout surely wasn't code.
Other than it being acidic steam, wonder if they could use the warmth of exhaust flue to warm problem area
heck, why not duct in the car exhaust?
Taurus
10-27-2023, 10:35am
It's the large vent that you can see in the picture that dumps directly into the mechanical room. The air that comes down is very cold in the winter.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3494
It's the large vent that you can see in the picture that dumps directly into the mechanical room. The air that comes down is very cold in the winter.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3494
Never seen that set up. That's crazy to have a duct that large tied to the outside world and then not tied to anything inside. You have an open window in your ceiling.
Never seen that set up. That's crazy to have a duct that large tied to the outside world and then not tied to anything inside. You have an open window in your ceiling.
Seems as though. I think I'll have someone come out and possibly re-engineer that set up.
we had to get a new boiler years ago, the old one had a direct dump of outside air via a 6" duct from the roof into the room (utility and laundry). well, that's just cold air always coming into a house you are trying to heat. duh.
so the new system has a closed loop, exterior air piped directly into the unit, exhaust piped directly out. room is warm now, as is the rest of the house.
Rodnok1
10-27-2023, 3:52pm
Never seen that set up. That's crazy to have a duct that large tied to the outside world and then not tied to anything inside. You have an open window in your ceiling.
That room would need to be 100% sealed to not be a huge cold air issue.
If that duct is near those water lines that froze no wonder they froze.
Seems as though. I think I'll have someone come out and possibly re-engineer that set up.
1.800.YADKIN2
Seems as though. I think I'll have someone come out and possibly re-engineer that set up.
Are your building code folks reachable by phone, or text?
I would ask which code book is being used, and which section/page you should look at for gas appliance installation diagrams, specifically in enclosed areas w/r/t Ventilation. You can usually very easily pick the book up at the code enforcement department.
Joey777
10-27-2023, 7:26pm
It's the large vent that you can see in the picture that dumps directly into the mechanical room. The air that comes down is very cold in the winter.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3494
I’m not an HVAC guy nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but that set up doesn’t seem copacetic. So that big duct brings fresh air from outside and dumps it in the “furnace room”. Then the furnace sucks it up and uses it for combustion? All the high-efficiency furnaces around here use a 4” fresh air intake that is connected to the furnace and a similar sized pipe that carries the exhaust outside. You should call a different “guy” to get another set of eyes on that.
Vandelay Industries
10-27-2023, 7:28pm
1.800.YADKIN2
* 1/800.YADKIN2
It's the large vent that you can see in the picture that dumps directly into the mechanical room. The air that comes down is very cold in the winter.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=3494
Back about 20 years ago an opening to the outside used to be in the international commercial code, although not nearly that large. It was, maybe still is, a stupid practice. After passing final inspection I'd instruct the owner to close it up.
Modern high efficiency gas heaters use a 2" or 3" PVC line to obtain combustion air from outside, but it is plumbed directly to the burner.
Look up the install instructions for your burner. Many allow combustion air to be obtained from within the space, as long as it it large enough. If not, let those instructions be your guide, as they supercede Code.
Back about 20 years ago an opening to the outside used to be in the international commercial code, although not nearly that large. It was, maybe still is, a stupid practice. After passing final inspection I'd instruct the owner to close it up.
Modern high efficiency gas heaters use a 2" or 3" PVC line to obtain combustion air from outside, but it is plumbed directly to the burner.
Look up the install instructions for your burner. Many allow combustion air to be obtained from within the space, as long as it it large enough. If not, let those instructions be your guide, as they supercede Code.
Intake left, exhaust right. 8 year old install.
No ouside air intake but my equipment room is about 600 sqft., so that's why I think you should just go ahead and get the code and see what is required for a small area.
Unsuspicious
10-27-2023, 9:57pm
Seems like a cartoonish attempt to solve a hypothetical make up air issue.
Intake left, exhaust right. 8 year old install.
No ouside air intake but my equipment room is about 600 sqft., so that's why I think you should just go ahead and get the code and see what is required for a small area.
Again, the manufacturer's requirements are what matters, not the Code. Whoever installed that cheated, and cost you extra $ in fuel.
Your vent (exhaust) is a 3", so the intake should also be 3". They typically run parallel and to the outside at the same location, either a special fitting, or within a certain distance of each other.
The size of the equipment room is irrelevant since it is open to the adjacent room.
Again, the manufacturer's requirements are what matters, not the Code. Whoever installed that cheated, and cost you extra $ in fuel.
Your vent (exhaust) is a 3", so the intake should also be 3". They typically run parallel and to the outside at the same location, either a special fitting, or within a certain distance of each other.
The size of the equipment room is irrelevant since it is open to the adjacent room.
Intake is 3" and exhaust transitions from 3" to 4" on the vertical section as required by code and manufacturer given the config. I'm glad someone told you how large my place is and that the exhaust run is not 12ish feet to the roof and you pulled your little cheat sheet out. 4" is correct and required on the exhaust side given lengths and fittings to reduce backpressure, and balance the combustion. Make sure you do the math at 7600 feet.
We don't route intakes outside in homes with enough ventilation interior/crawl/attic space in this area. We don't have an attic or crawlspace in the main side of the house.
As far as the OP, his finished bath looks like it sealed the existing utility door from the pre-work to post-work pictures. I figured he cut a new utility door outside the bath. In this case, the area is sealed of unless he vented the door or leaves it open.
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