I called hydrogen as a fuel in my senior year of highschool...1986

[Datawiz]

My honors colloquium class my senior year in high school covered this topic. I knew back then, and have never wavered on my belief that Hydrogen is the future. The EV koolaid is unsustainable, as we all know.

Toyota is going to leapfrog (or kill) the entire EV vehicle landscape. This IS the future. Always was.

rTawvzH0MQ4

[Mike Mercury]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/hydrogen-hydrogen.jpg


https://i.imgflip.com/1vkxol.jpg



https://cdn.banyanhill.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/05151818/Great-Stuff-02-05-2021-Big.jpg

[DAB]

once you make it, it's supply is unlimited..... :slap:

[Steve_R]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

Or not.

[Datawiz]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

Or not.

That's covered in the video. 40 years ago, that was the argument...infrastructure. It's not that much of a challenge anymore.

[Zed16]

I wrote a paper on the hydrogen economy back in 1974. Infrastructure, vested financial interests, and attitude were the barriers then.

[Steve_R]

That's covered in the video. 40 years ago, that was the argument...infrastructure. It's not that much of a challenge anymore.

Really?

Hydrogen Stations in USA in March 2023

Almost all the fuel cell vehicles in the US are in CALIFORNIA . There are a handful in Hawaii. This is because there is no hydrogen fueling network anywhere in the US outside CALIFORNIA and the Aloha State.

[Bruze]

I invented the car that runs on water. Hyde was the first one to mention it. Pretty serious stuff.

You can thank me now if you wish -- before it's too late. https://i.postimg.cc/y60mLtFJ/smiley-bashhead.gif

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIqKS6YQYtQ

[69camfrk]

But it has that ozone, baby duck, and rattlesnake killing by product of water. Oh wait...:leaving: Yes, the EV thing is a total fraud, but like everything else, follow the money. The .gov is intent on destroying the middle class with their policies, and it seems to be working. Hydrogen is indeed a great source of fuel, but those of us with a brain have known it forever.

[dvarapala]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

My boss has leased a Fuel Cell Honda Clarity for the last 6 years. Since Honda is fully covering his fuel costs his operating costs are comparable to a Civic, which is the main reason he's doing it (plus playing with the new tech is kind of fun). However, in all that time the hydrogen refueling infrastructure in California hasn't grown much if at all, and is totally non-existent everywhere else. And now Honda is no longer making the Fuel Cell Clarity.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

[markids77]

I think the answer is hydrogen/electric hybrids. After the wreck ignites the battery pack, the explosion of the hydrogen tank will evaporate everything for half a block around... no worries about how to deal with the short circuits!

[Bruze]

So everybody buys the left's premise that we're running out of oil, and we must switch to something else NOW or in the near future?

[TheRealBadger]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

Or not.

Right now. True.

Near future? Going to change significantly.

Hydrogen is already being injected into the NG stream in some locations. Hydrogen is a better long term storage than a li-ion battery. So, solar to electorylsis to either fuel cell or hydrogen IcE is a great peak shaving device. It also makes sense where fixed routes and refueling can be managed, like buses and delivery vehicles.

[Rikki Z-06]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

Or not.

Sure about that?

https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo

[markids77]

Right now. True.

Near future? Going to change significantly.

Hydrogen is already being injected into the NG stream in some locations. Hydrogen is a better long term storage than a li-ion Barrett. So, solar to electorylsis to either fuel cell or hydrogen IcE is a great peak shaving device. It also makes sense where fixed routes and refueling can be managed, like buses and delivery vehicles.

Barretts are powered by internal combustion. Perhaps you were thinking of a phased plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range?

[TheRealBadger]

Sure about that?

https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo

Cummins is losing $72M a quarter on their clean tech business after spending more than $500M acquiring them. I’d be careful to get too excited what Cummins says.

[TheRealBadger]

Barretts are powered by internal combustion. Perhaps you were thinking of a phased plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range?

Nah. Stupid typo. I not so smart with my thumbs.

[Mike Mercury]

Perhaps you were thinking of a phased plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range?


https://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/7/7d/Miscte4-1-.jpg/600px-Miscte4-1-.jpg

[Yadkin]

It's a no brainer. After petrol becomes scarce, in another 150 years...

[Steve_R]

Sure about that?

https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo

Yeah, quite sure about it. Buy one and let us know where you can refuel it in Florida.

:popcorns:

[Craig]

Where do you mine for hydrogen?

[Yadkin]

Where do you mine for hydrogen?

Water and electricity.

[Bill]

Where do you mine for hydrogen?

Water and electricity.

Simply cover large parts of the ocean with solar panels to run the machinery to produce the hydrogen and oxygen! The covered water will be a cooler temperature, which will help stop global warming AND make hurricanes less destructive, as the water is a cooler temperature.

Something happens.

Profit.

[LATB]

Don't care.
Just keep producing Diesel and Gasoline.

[Burro (He/Haw)]

Xcel Energy is on board. (https://stories.xcelenergy.com/ArticlePage/?id=Xcel-Energy-is-envisioning-a-hydrogen-powered-future)

Personally, I like gasoline. Makes a good hand cleaner too.

[Rikki Z-06]

Yeah, quite sure about it. Buy one and let us know where you can refuel it in Florida.

:popcorns:

We'll see where this ends up. I'm no expert on this, but I've heard of this about Cummins for a few years now. :cert:

[69camfrk]

So everybody buys the left's premise that we're running out of oil, and we must switch to something else NOW or in the near future?

This planet is no where near running out of oil. And it produces more all on its own. People are being played. There is no need to switch to anything immediately. I do think Hydrogen powered internal combustion engines are the natural evolution of things instead of electric, but it should be market driven, not forced down our damn throats by greedy politicians and billionaires.

[Vegas]

Yeah, because there are hydrogen filling stations everywhere, and a great distribution infrastructure. And hydrogen is SO easy and cheap to extract from air or water.

Or not.

There's not even EV chargers here, more less hydrogen

[DAB]

the earth gushes forth oil (from which gasoline is derived) in abundance. we, with great effort and cost and difficulty can produce hydrogen, which is hard to store, hard to transport, and hard to use with existing infrastructure and machinery.

none if this is news, but many refuse to accept the obvious.

[Bruze]

This planet is no where near running out of oil. And it produces more all on its own. People are being played. There is no need to switch to anything immediately. I do think Hydrogen powered internal combustion engines are the natural evolution of things instead of electric, but it should be market driven, not forced down our damn throats by greedy politicians and billionaires.

The whole idea that crude oil is rotted dinosaurs is preposterous. I think I learned that in school, although back then maybe they really believed it. Yes, the globe most likely is producing it all the time.

The left, always clever at manipulating language to their benefit, has labeled it a "fossil fuel," implying that it was made eons ago and is of a finite supply.

"Electric" is not an option because we need some fuel source to produce it. I've been asking that question since the '90s. But the average person out there, who bought into the clot shots and face diapering, will support electric because they cannot think on their own.

All the car mags have bought into it. This guy, Eric Peters Autos (https://www.ericpetersautos.com/), however has not.

Evidence, for any of this, does not matter and will make no difference. In other words, we're doomed. :( I'm glad I'm old. :eek:

.


.

[TheRealBadger]

The whole idea that crude oil is rotted dinosaurs is preposterous. I think I learned that in school, although back then maybe they really believed it. Yes, the globe most likely is producing it all the time.

The left, always clever at manipulating language to their benefit, has labeled it a "fossil fuel," implying that it was made eons ago and is of a finite supply.

"Electric" is not an option because we need some fuel source to produce it. I've been asking that question since the '90s. But the average person out there, who bought into the clot shots and face diapering, will support electric because they cannot think on their own.

All the car mags have bought into it. This guy, Eric Peters Autos (https://www.ericpetersautos.com/), however has not.

Evidence, for any of this, does not matter and will make no difference. In other words, we're doomed. :( I'm glad I'm old. :eek:

.


.

Burn down the planet. Then die. The boomer way.

[Yadkin]

Burn down the planet. Then die. The boomer way.

Gosh, you can't read either.

[TheRealBadger]

Gosh, you can't read either.

I read just fine. Apparently you don’t.

[Mike Mercury]

Simply cover large parts of the ocean with solar panels to run the machinery to produce the hydrogen and oxygen!


lets start off the coast of Massachusetts, and along the shores of Martha's Vineyard.

[Yadkin]

I read just fine. Apparently you don’t.

With that attitude, you are incapable of learning.

[Bruze]

.

[TheRealBadger]

With that attitude, you are incapable of learning.

Irony

[Bill]

Burn down the planet. Then die. The boomer way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1sWsn1Q8lk

[Yadkin]

Irony

I learn every day.

[Bill]

lets start off the coast of Massachusetts, and along the shores of Martha's Vineyard.

Excellent idea! They can use O6ama's big ass propane tank to power the machinery at night when the solar panels aren't working.

[Rob]

Simply cover large parts of the ocean with solar panels to run the machinery to produce the hydrogen and oxygen! The covered water will be a cooler temperature, which will help stop global warming AND make hurricanes less destructive, as the water is a cooler temperature.

Something happens.

Profit.

You are suggesting to convert clean energy, gathered from the Sun, to run a different machine that will then convert another fuel source into its rudimentary elements to then be used as fuel?

Keep in mind that the process of extracting H2 from water, via electrolysis, would require more electricity than the amount of electricity gained from the conversion. Thereby, putting you in a state of diminishing returns.

[Rob]

The EV koolaid is unsustainable, as we all know.


I would love to see your math on this

[TheRealBadger]

You are suggesting to convert clean energy, gathered from the Sun, to run a different machine that will then convert another fuel source into its rudimentary elements to then be used as fuel?

Keep in mind that the process of extracting H2 from water, via electrolysis, would require more electricity than the amount of electricity gained from the conversion. Thereby, putting you in a state of diminishing returns.

Which is okay if your goal is storage and transportation versus immediate consumption.

Which is nearly the same for gasoline production. It takes far more energy to harvest and refine it than it produces.

[Bill]

You are suggesting to convert clean energy, gathered from the Sun, to run a different machine that will then convert another fuel source into its rudimentary elements to then be used as fuel?

Keep in mind that the process of extracting H2 from water, via electrolysis, would require more electricity than the amount of electricity gained from the conversion. Thereby, putting you in a state of diminishing returns.

I was actually making a joke. The supposition is bullshit, as you correctly point out. Although, we actually ARE making that very stupid mistake by turning our actual food into gasahol. Spend more energy to result in less energy. But hey, Iowa farmers are happy, so there's that.

[Rob]

I was actually making a joke. The supposition is bullshit, as you correctly point out. Although, we actually ARE making that very stupid mistake by turning our actual food into gasahol. Spend more energy to result in less energy. But hey, Iowa farmers are happy, so there's that.

I love the Hydrogen cell concept, but I believe if this was going to be the direction of the future, more people would have bought in 20+ years ago when Honda first brought these alternate fuel vehicles to California.

If anything, the major marketplace for these would be long-haul...trains, trucks, busses.

[Steve_R]

Keep in mind that the process of extracting H2 from water, via electrolysis, would require more electricity than the amount of electricity gained from the conversion. Thereby, putting you in a state of diminishing returns.

This is the part that most people don't understand, and the entities pushing for "clean" hydrogen powered vehicles don't want to talk about.

[TheRealBadger]

I was actually making a joke. The supposition is bullshit, as you correctly point out. Although, we actually ARE making that very stupid mistake by turning our actual food into gasahol. Spend more energy to result in less energy. But hey, Iowa farmers are happy, so there's that.

It takes more energy produce gasoline and diesel than it produces.

And?

[Steve_R]

It takes more energy produce gasoline and diesel than it produces.

And?

Duh. What energy source takes less to produce than it makes? Figure that out and you've invented perpetual motion.

[TheRealBadger]

Duh. What energy source takes less to produce than it makes? Figure that out and you've invented perpetual motion.

Duh.

So what is the point of trying to argue against hydrogen because of it. Duh.

[TheRealBadger]

This is the part that most people don't understand, and the entities pushing for "clean" hydrogen powered vehicles don't want to talk about.

Duh. What energy source takes less to produce than it makes? Figure that out and you've invented perpetual motion.

[Steve_R]

Duh.

So what is the point of trying to argue against hydrogen because of it. Duh.

The premise of the thread is that hydrogen will replace electricity as the source of energy for vehicles. But that means taking the electricity from generating stations (which are 30% +/- efficient) and then using that to generate hydrogen, thus losing even more energy. It makes zero sense.

Capiche?

[Yadkin]

You are suggesting to convert clean energy, gathered from the Sun, to run a different machine that will then convert another fuel source into its rudimentary elements to then be used as fuel?

Keep in mind that the process of extracting H2 from water, via electrolysis, would require more electricity than the amount of electricity gained from the conversion. Thereby, putting you in a state of diminishing returns.

Hydrogen is a storage medium, not an energy source.

[Rob]

Hydrogen is a storage medium, not an energy source.

ok, it still is less efficient (regardless of how you feel it needs to be defined)

clearly your elementary level of engineering skills does understand that

[DAB]

A flywheel is a storage device. So is a dam.

Gasoline, natural gas, hydrogen are sources.

[Rob]

A flywheel is a storage device. So is a dam.

Gasoline, natural gas, hydrogen are sources.

He needs to go out and stare at the Sun for 10-20 min

[dvarapala]

I would love to see your math on this

Prolly sixer math. :D

[DAB]

as stated by others, the problem is hydrogen is not naturally occurring, you have to make it somehow. and in so doing, you consume more energy making it than the amount of energy it will give you back as an energy source. so it's a net loser.

the germans turned coal into gasoline in ww2, but it was an inefficient process. they only did so because their supply of oil got cut off.

back in the 50s Lockheed built two hydrogen power planes, but the tanks took up most of the fuselage, leaving no room for people or cargo or bombs, and it didn't give them a larger flight envelope, so it was dropped pretty quickly. same physics apply today.

it's good for specialized applications, like a space shuttle or saturn V rocket (2nd stage), but for consumer use.....it won't save whatever you are trying to save for later.

[Yadkin]

ok, it still is less efficient (regardless of how you feel it needs to be defined)

clearly your elementary level of engineering skills does understand that

Since you are the self-proclaimed know-it-all on this subject, kindly tell us, Oh Master, why the image on the left is preferable. :waiting:

[DAB]

for the battery car, something has to produce the electricity that the battery stores for later use.

for the H2 car, something has to produce the H2 from other compounds that will be used later.

for the average car with a V8, it burns gasoline which is refined from crude oil.

the thermal efficiency of most power plants is about 35-38%. the thermal efficiency of your average car engine is about 28-30%.

[Vette40th]

There was a C4 on CF who converted his to Hydrogen with 3 scuba looking tanks in the hatch area. 450 Mile range for the 3 tanks.
Honda tried to work it in CA, and was stonewalled by Politics..

[LATB]

ok, it still is less efficient (regardless of how you feel it needs to be defined)

clearly your elementary level of engineering skills does understand that

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[TheRealBadger]

The premise of the thread is that hydrogen will replace electricity as the source of energy for vehicles. But that means taking the electricity from generating stations (which are 30% +/- efficient) and then using that to generate hydrogen, thus losing even more energy. It makes zero sense.

Capiche?

No, it’s not, actually. It’s hydrogen as a fuel source.

Capiche?

[TheRealBadger]

as stated by others, the problem is hydrogen is not naturally occurring, you have to make it somehow. and in so doing, you consume more energy making it than the amount of energy it will give you back as an energy source. so it's a net loser.

the germans turned coal into gasoline in ww2, but it was an inefficient process. they only did so because their supply of oil got cut off.

back in the 50s Lockheed built two hydrogen power planes, but the tanks took up most of the fuselage, leaving no room for people or cargo or bombs, and it didn't give them a larger flight envelope, so it was dropped pretty quickly. same physics apply today.

it's good for specialized applications, like a space shuttle or saturn V rocket (2nd stage), but for consumer use.....it won't save whatever you are trying to save for later.

Hydrogen is not natural occurring. Wait. What?

[TheRealBadger]

for the battery car, something has to produce the electricity that the battery stores for later use.

for the H2 car, something has to produce the H2 from other compounds that will be used later.

for the average car with a V8, it burns gasoline which is refined from crude oil.

the thermal efficiency of most power plants is about 35-38%. the thermal efficiency of your average car engine is about 28-30%.

Oh my. No.

First, thermal efficiency of current cars is closer to 40%+.

As for power plants, they may reach those thermal efficiencies at the plant, but then lose 50% or more in transmission. Central power plants are a terribly old idea that will die.

[Steve_R]

Hydrogen is not natural occurring. Wait. What?

Elemental hydrogen used in fuel cells has to be produced as it doesn’t exist in sufficient quantities in nature. But you already knew that and just look incredibly stupid with your trolling.

[Rob]

Since you are the self-proclaimed know-it-all on this subject, kindly tell us, Oh Master, why the image on the left is preferable. :waiting:

Thank you for proving my earlier statement :rofl:

[TheRealBadger]

Elemental hydrogen used in fuel cells has to be produced as it doesn’t exist in sufficient quantities in nature. But you already knew that and just look incredibly stupid with your trolling.

I wasn’t talking to you.

And I wasn’t trolling.

[Yadkin]

Thank you for proving my earlier statement :rofl:

I proved that you're full of shit.. :Jeff '79:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

I proved that you're full of shit.. :Jeff '79:

.

[Rob]

I proved that you're full of shit.. :Jeff '79:



No. You proved you still have no grasp of evolving technologies and their stores of value ya boomer

[Steve_R]

I wasn’t talking to you.

And I wasn’t trolling.


When you post in a thread you're talking to everybody. If you want to talk to one person, and one person only, there's this cool feature call a Private Message. You should try it.
You're always trolling here. It's what you do. It's all you do. You know it and everybody else knows it.

[Rob]

When you post in a thread you're talking to everybody. If you want to talk to one person, and one person only, there's this cool feature call a Private Message. You should try it.
You're always trolling here. It's what you do. It's all you do. You know it and everybody else knows it.


You sound like Trump :rofl:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

You sound like Trump :rofl:


He does; and is older than Trump too, but just as ugly, and Trump probably golfs better. :yesnod:

[Yadkin]

No. You proved you still have no grasp of evolving technologies and their stores of value ya boomer

Baseless allegation and name calling. :Jeff '79:

Fact is, I'm an "all of the above" guy, and always have been. If you want an overpriced, heavy, fire-prone, ten-year lifespan appliance in your driveway, then go for it. I'll gladly wait until the technology improves before I fork over my hard-earned cash. :yesnod:

[Rob]

Baseless allegation and name calling. :Jeff '79:

Fact is, I'm an "all of the above" guy, and always have been. If you want an overpriced, heavy, fire-prone, ten-year lifespan appliance in your driveway, then go for it. I'll gladly wait until the technology improves before I fork over my hard-earned cash. :yesnod:

So sweet... yet you still have not proven your point. I can post pics also. How many you want to see?

Your anger and (continuous) attitude that you exude on this forum proves you lack knowledge and refuse to even make any attempts to have open dialog about anything.

As for being "all of the above" I kinda pictured you as a dominant bottom more than anything

:seasix:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

your lack knowledge and refuse to even make any attempts to have open dialog about anything.


:iagree:


Ill duce
antfarmer
der flieger
STS

4 permas from there, that take advantage of the leniency here.
The only difference between them and yadkin is; yadkin's still here.

[Rob]

:iagree:


Ill duce
antfarmer
der flieger
STS

4 permas from there, that take advantage of the leniency here.
The only difference between them and yadkin is; yadkin's still here.

I have no reason to ban anyone for disagreeing.

Those that are gone, are gone for a good reason. Some that were banned, are back because I asked them to come back.

The admin/mods here are easy going are you are going to find. But you may also notice we don't post much because some people find that they have nothing better to do than find reasons to argue. Guess that is what happens when they run out of the little blue pills :rofl:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

some people find that they have nothing better to do than find reasons to argue.


:iagree:

[Rob]

:iagree:

brown noser :rofl:

[Yadkin]

So sweet... yet you still have not proven your point. I can post pics also. How many you want to see?

Your anger and (continuous) attitude that you exude on this forum proves you lack knowledge and refuse to even make any attempts to have open dialog about anything.

As for being "all of the above" I kinda pictured you as a dominant bottom more than anything

:seasix:

In other words, you're full of shit. :Jeff '79:

[Yadkin]

Rob won't be the first admin that changed my posts or banned me because I called him out. :Jeff '79:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

brown noser :rofl:

Rob won't be the first admin that changed my posts or banned me because I called him out. :Jeff '79:


:iagree:

[Strats-N-Vettes]

:lol:

[DAB]

Oh my. No.

First, thermal efficiency of current cars is closer to 40%+.

As for power plants, they may reach those thermal efficiencies at the plant, but then lose 50% or more in transmission. Central power plants are a terribly old idea that will die.

I’ll post some links with the numbers later. I looked them up yesterday, but didn’t include them. Stay tuned, or do your own googling. Not that hard.

[Rob]

Rob won't be the first admin that changed my posts or banned me because I called him out. :Jeff '79:

No need to change them, you proved my point

[TheRealBadger]

I’ll post some links with the numbers later. I looked them up yesterday, but didn’t include them. Stay tuned, or do your own googling. Not that hard.

You are closer to correct, but new engines coming out are 35-40%+. Turbos and electronic controls are making huge strides.

[Yadkin]

No need to change them, you proved my point

Like before, you're full of shit. :Jeff '79:

[dvarapala]

Hydrogen is not natural occurring. Wait. What?

That's right, the most abundant element in the universe is not naturally occurring. :funniest:

What he meant was it's not easy to find elemental hydrogen on Earth - around these parts it's almost always combined with other elements.

[TheRealBadger]

That's right, the most abundant element in the universe is not naturally occurring. :funniest:

What he meant was it's not easy to find elemental hydrogen on Earth - around these parts it's almost always combined with other elements.

Aaaahhhh.

I thought maybe it was Yadkin science.

[Rob]

That's right, the most abundant element in the universe is not naturally occurring. :funniest:

What he meant was it's not easy to find elemental hydrogen on Earth - around these parts it's almost always combined with other elements.

like fossil fuels

[Yadkin]

Aaaahhhh.

I thought maybe it was Yadkin science.

I must have triggered you real hard at some point. :Jeff '79:

[DAB]

methane - CH4

water - H2O

yes, hydrogen is very abundant, but it has already combined with other elements. you can't combust water, but you can combust methane and other hydrocarbons (like octane). or you can strip H from them to obtain H2, but that consumes more energy than you'll get by later combusting H2 with oxygen. so why bother?

seas are full of water....

[LATB]

methane - CH4

water - H2O

yes, hydrogen is very abundant, but it has already combined with other elements. you can't combust water, but you can combust methane and other hydrocarbons (like octane). or you can strip H from them to obtain H2, but that consumes more energy than you'll get by later combusting H2 with oxygen. so why bother?

seas are full of water....

And the earth is full of oil.

Drill Baby Drill :smash:

[DAB]

the "experts" have been telling us that we are going to run out of oil in 10 years for the last 50 years.....maybe it's time to get better experts.

[TheRealBadger]

I must have triggered you real hard at some point. :Jeff '79:

I doubt you could do anything real hard.