View Full Version : Why are HOA's Dicks?
This is the first time I've lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and the first 2.5 years never heard a peep out of them. Lately however they got some new people on the board and now I get hassled by them. First it was move your trash can, I've always had it where it was when I moved in which is the same spot about 2/3'ds of the rest of the neighborhood has theirs, no biggie I moved the trash can. Now I just had my rickety old fence replaced and it makes the house look 100% better but today I get a letter... We did an inspection and noticed you installed a new fence, well you need to submit plans, a survey and a detail of materials to be used before you can do that. Even though your fence is already up and it obviously is the exact same dimensions and location as the old fence we want all that stuff so send it to us.:banghead:
I wrote back on the form that the fence is the same as the old one and I don't have any of the info you requested, sorry I didn't check with you first. I'll probably get a lien on my house now. Assholes.
Heaven forbid they send me a letter saying "We appreciate you taking care of your home and making an effort to keep our neighborhood nice, good job."
NeedSpeed
04-27-2011, 4:31pm
I think they should be illegal.
Datawiz
04-27-2011, 4:35pm
Old people with nothing better to do, but make stupid rules.
In order to solve it, get elected to the Board of Directors. I did, about 10 years ago. I was the young punk, but I streamlined the accounting and perfected the financial reporting. I ousted a corrupt president in a huge public humiliation. Our Association has been running smoothly ever since. We've operated in the black every single year since then.
They know if they screw up, I'm coming back to get them. :lol:
BUT, YOU DID receive a packet of Association By-laws when you moved there. Rules is rules. ;) Don't like them, get elected and change them. :D
Uncle Pervey
04-27-2011, 5:07pm
They are dicks because they have a bunch people living in the neighborhood who are dicks, therefore they are dicks to everybody. Kind of like the people that manage storage units, they treat everybody like non-paying creeps, because so many non-paying creeps use storage places.
Just because you are a normal, intelligent human being doesn't mean the 75% of the the population aren't figging morangs! :yesnod:
jaxgator
04-27-2011, 5:13pm
BUT, YOU DID receive a packet of Association By-laws when you moved there. Rules is rules. ;) Don't like them, get elected and change them. :D
this
Mark C5
04-27-2011, 5:33pm
It's funny how every time I hear on of these "my HOA is a bunch of azzholes" stories it always turns out the complainer has violated one or more of the HOA rules.
But I agree, how stupid of them to expect people to follow rules they agreed to when they moved in. Azzholes! :rofl:
I totally understand that I got the rule book and I should have checked it first but I forgot. I didn't change my fence one bit, just replaced it so hopefully they will let me slide instead of making an example out of me for what they probably view as usurping their authority.
They are still dicks no matter what the outcome. :D
Mark C5
04-27-2011, 5:46pm
They are still dicks no matter what the outcome. :D
Of course they are, after all who do they think they're dealing with? Don't they know you're "special"? :rofl:
jaxgator
04-27-2011, 5:56pm
Of course, you're other option is to move to a home not located in an HOA.
Trust me...as a HOA president for three years, they are in their board meeting at this moment talking about how big a dick you are because you're didn't follow the rules. :thumbs:
It's called "precedent", as soon as they let one slide, they have to let them all slide. Pull up your panties and submit the paperwork you agreed to submit when you moved into the neighborhood and agreed to the HOA.
NeedSpeed
04-27-2011, 6:06pm
Where does an HOA get any legal authority?
Of course they are, after all who do they think they're dealing with? Don't they know you're "special"? :rofl:
I never implied that I was special, I made a mistake and am hoping they don't make an example of me because of it. I think they are dicks because they saw the fence was already done but now send me a letter that they want all this info before it's done.
You've obviously spent some time on a few HOA boards so I'm sure you've dealt with similar situations.
Uncle Pervey
04-27-2011, 6:17pm
Of course, you're other option is to move to a home not located in an HOA.
He won't be able to move because he won't be able to sell the house because of the lein they are gonna put on it! :rofl: It's all a plot for the HOA to grab ownership of your property!!
Actually I doubt that they can place a lein on your home for not following the rules, the only thing I think they can put a lein on it for is for non-payment of dues to the HOA. At least that's what I have been told here in Texas, but I am not a lawyer and I don't know your state's laws. I know that several years ago a guy in a neighboring neighborhood busted his HOA. The requirement were that all out buildings should match the trim and color of the home. If the home was 75% brick verneer then the outbuilding had to be 75%brick. He built a shop, about 30 by 50 in his backyard and planked it with Hardy Board and painted it to match his house.
The HOA went ballistic, took him to court and lost. The building is still there and he's still living in the house. :yesnod: Another thing that was a rule in our HOA, no external TV antennas. 20 years ago a guy moved and put one of the big dishes in his yard, they pitched a fit, and lost that one too. My opinion of HOA's is that they are toothless old worn out things of the past.
Of course your mileage may vary depending on your State and Local laws.
Mark C5
04-27-2011, 6:21pm
You've obviously spent some time on a few HOA boards so I'm sure you've dealt with similar situations.
Never lived in an HOA community or served on any such board. I guess it's the upbringing and 26 years of military service that taught me to follow the rules and not whine like a girl if I get caught not doing so.
Best of luck with the board, I hope you're able to work it out.
MrPeabody
04-27-2011, 6:21pm
Where does an HOA get any legal authority?
From your signature when you join and agree to abide by the rules.
mrvette
04-27-2011, 7:32pm
From your signature when you join and agree to abide by the rules.
NOT a quart in the land that will even care anymore....get real....
it's who has the bux for the kickback....case closed....
:sadangel:
Iron Chef
04-27-2011, 7:43pm
IBChefDefendsHOANazis :leaving:
If you can't make a solid argument, you're gonna get owned. :D
It's funny how every time I hear on of these "my HOA is a bunch of azzholes" stories it always turns out the complainer has violated one or more of the HOA rules.
But I agree, how stupid of them to expect people to follow rules they agreed to when they moved in. Azzholes! :rofl:
I think the OP is complaining about something that seems to be common (pun intended) these days, a lack of common sense.
Sure, OP violated the rules by not getting pre-approval from the HOA to remove his old fence and erect an exact duplicate with brand new lumber. OK, OP is a bad man, and probably should be shot on sight. Fine.
Here's the thing, though. The new fence is already up. It is EXACTLY like the old fence. It didn't move, change height, or use different materials. OP merely replaced the fence with brand new material.
The OP SHOULD have applied for permission to replace the fence. He didn't. At this point, though, having him send plans, etc. serves no purpose other than to rub the OP's nose in the fact that he didn't follow the rules.
Sending the OP this letter is no different than the cop who pulls someone over for doing 32 in a 30. Sure, that motorist broke the rules, but nobody got hurt. But for the cop being there, enforcing that 30 mph zone, life would have gone on as usual for everyone.
The letter was sent because somebody got butt hurt that the OP put a round peg in a square hole and made it work. No, you can only put a square peg in a square hole, because that is the rule, and rules must always be followed. Why? Because that is the rule.
What the HOA is missing is common sense. Of course, when we have rules, like zero tolerance, we don't need to have common sense anymore.
I think the OP is complaining about something that seems to be common (pun intended) these days, a lack of common sense.
Sure, OP violated the rules by not getting pre-approval from the HOA to remove his old fence and erect an exact duplicate with brand new lumber. OK, OP is a bad man, and probably should be shot on sight. Fine.
Here's the thing, though. The new fence is already up. It is EXACTLY like the old fence. It didn't move, change height, or use different materials. OP merely replaced the fence with brand new material.
The OP SHOULD have applied for permission to replace the fence. He didn't. At this point, though, having him send plans, etc. serves no purpose other than to rub the OP's nose in the fact that he didn't follow the rules.
Sending the OP this letter is no different than the cop who pulls someone over for doing 32 in a 30. Sure, that motorist broke the rules, but nobody got hurt. But for the cop being there, enforcing that 30 mph zone, life would have gone on as usual for everyone.
The letter was sent because somebody got butt hurt that the OP put a round peg in a square hole and made it work. No, you can only put a square peg in a square hole, because that is the rule, and rules must always be followed. Why? Because that is the rule.
What the HOA is missing is common sense. Of course, when we have rules, like zero tolerance, we don't need to have common sense anymore.
RIF...the HOA is requiring him to send the plans after the fact so they have them on file so they don't set any precedent by not requiring them.
Y'all get butt hurt over stupid shit because you fail the common sense test.
Datawiz
04-27-2011, 7:59pm
I think the OP is complaining about something that seems to be common (pun intended) these days, a lack of common sense.
Sure, OP violated the rules by not getting pre-approval from the HOA to remove his old fence and erect an exact duplicate with brand new lumber. OK, OP is a bad man, and probably should be shot on sight. Fine.
Here's the thing, though. The new fence is already up. It is EXACTLY like the old fence. It didn't move, change height, or use different materials. OP merely replaced the fence with brand new material.
The OP SHOULD have applied for permission to replace the fence. He didn't. At this point, though, having him send plans, etc. serves no purpose other than to rub the OP's nose in the fact that he didn't follow the rules.
Sending the OP this letter is no different than the cop who pulls someone over for doing 32 in a 30. Sure, that motorist broke the rules, but nobody got hurt. But for the cop being there, enforcing that 30 mph zone, life would have gone on as usual for everyone.
The letter was sent because somebody got butt hurt that the OP put a round peg in a square hole and made it work. No, you can only put a square peg in a square hole, because that is the rule, and rules must always be followed. Why? Because that is the rule.
What the HOA is missing is common sense. Of course, when we have rules, like zero tolerance, we don't need to have common sense anymore.
What most people don't realize is that HOA's have limited teeth. The most we could fine someone was $100/day for a maximum of 10 days. When people make large changes to their houses, roofs, fences, paint jobs, etc., the cost of "doing them again" far exceeds the penalty that can be enforced by the HOA. Our HOA is trying to amend the documents to add more teeth, and the laws have recently changed to allow HOA's better lien rights, AND the ability to foreclose, but a lot of that is still in limbo.
Read the docs. Every HOA is different.
Comply or move. :dance:
http://www.filmsite.org/robots/robocop.jpg
"You have 20 seconds to comply, homeowner."
Joecooool
04-27-2011, 8:07pm
When I lived in Boca, land of the old fart retirees, I got sick of their nitpicking every month so I joined the enforcement board. They played favorites and kept issuing violations to people they wanted to move while ignoring their friends who did the same or worse.
Citations had to be unanimous and I vetoed every one of them unless it was for a flagrant violation. I ended up getting a death threat from some 80 year old down the street. :lol:
MrPeabody
04-27-2011, 8:10pm
NOT a quart in the land that will even care anymore....get real....
it's who has the bux for the kickback....case closed....
:sadangel:
Works that way where I live...sorry to hear about the courts in your area.
The problem with HOAs is their growing prevalence. In some city suburbs, it's hard to find a nice home without one unless you're loaded. Some people are priced out of being able to pick a home with no HOA.
Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with them because you're free to avoid the little Stalins and live elsewhere.
Storm in Jax destroyed my MIL's screened enclosure with a tin roof over her pool. HOA pricks REFUSED to let her have it rebuilt. HOA head's house (and multiple others) had the same damn enclosure. Said it was against the rules. I offered to break his knees (this was when I was much younger and slightly dumber). She declined.
Bunch of ideal little socialists, obsessed with micromanaging others' lives. Only difference is you can escape THEM by living elsewhere. Our congressional and presidential overlords have dominion over the entire country, so we get to enjoy being told what kind of cars we're allowed to buy, light-bulbs we're allowed to use, etc.
Can't wait for the salt and fat bans to catch on nationally. Why not tell me WTF I can eat as well? Sociopaths, all of them.
End Rant.
ConstantChange
04-27-2011, 10:30pm
The problem with HOAs is their growing prevalence. In some city suburbs, it's hard to find a nice home without one unless you're loaded.
Exactly. I can't think of one newer neighborhood in my area that doesn't have a HOA. I have a problem with paying $200,000 - $300,000 (in Oklahoma this is a very nice house) for a house and still being told what outdoor lighting, landscaping, paint color, fence, etc... I can use.
Here is my policy when it comes to my house...
http://www.fortliberty.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/dont-tread-on-me.jpg
FasterTraffic
04-27-2011, 10:35pm
Of course, you're other option is to move to a home not located in an HOA.
Depending on the area, that's easier said than done. Around here, making it a goal to have no HOA eliminates 75% of your options.
That's not a made-up number, either. Seventy-five percent of homeowners in Orange County have an HOA.
The problem with HOAs is their growing prevalence. In some city suburbs, it's hard to find a nice home without one unless you're loaded. Some people are priced out of being able to pick a home with no HOA.
:iagree:
Mike Mercury
04-28-2011, 10:18am
Old people with nothing better to do, but make stupid rules.
exactly. Leftovers from the olden days - when socialism was thought to be a good idea.
island14
04-28-2011, 10:27am
The President of our HOA fixing up his door.
http://freeshopmanual.com/uploads/photos/Neighbor-2.JPG
http://freeshopmanual.com/uploads/photos/Neighbor-1.JPG
lander
04-28-2011, 10:29am
The President of our HOA fixing up his door.
http://freeshopmanual.com/uploads/photos/Neighbor-2.JPG
http://freeshopmanual.com/uploads/photos/Neighbor-1.JPG
I see at least five code violations in those pictures.
:leaving:
island14
04-28-2011, 10:39am
I see at least five code violations in those pictures.
:leaving:
Just 5? :lol:
And he cooks with firewood.... INSIDE! :yesnod:
onedef92
04-28-2011, 10:45am
I see at least five code violations in those pictures.
:leaving:
Yeah, but check out the hot and cold running vermin! :D
island14
04-28-2011, 10:51am
Yeah, but check out the hot and cold running vermin! :D
Trust me, he WILL eat a Cormorant if you gave him one.. :rofl:
onedef92
04-28-2011, 10:55am
Trust me, he WILL eat a Cormorant if you gave him one.. :rofl:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Candito/UIS/1cfd.jpg
I'm pretty sure that mofo's already eatin' 'em!
island14
04-28-2011, 11:01am
I'm pretty sure that mofo's already eatin' 'em!
It's possible since I have never seen one around here..
Maybe he already ate em all? :lol:
NeedSpeed
04-28-2011, 11:10am
From your signature when you join and agree to abide by the rules.
I realize that, but HOAs almost operate as government within the local government. There are already laws in place for maintaining a property to community standards.
10 Things a Homeowners Association Won't Tell You: Mortgage Center - Yahoo! Finance (http://loan.yahoo.com/m/primer13.html)
NeedSpeed
04-28-2011, 11:12am
He won't be able to move because he won't be able to sell the house because of the lein they are gonna put on it! :rofl: It's all a plot for the HOA to grab ownership of your property!!
Actually I doubt that they can place a lein on your home for not following the rules, the only thing I think they can put a lein on it for is for non-payment of dues to the HOA. At least that's what I have been told here in Texas, but I am not a lawyer and I don't know your state's laws. I know that several years ago a guy in a neighboring neighborhood busted his HOA. The requirement were that all out buildings should match the trim and color of the home. If the home was 75% brick verneer then the outbuilding had to be 75%brick. He built a shop, about 30 by 50 in his backyard and planked it with Hardy Board and painted it to match his house.
The HOA went ballistic, took him to court and lost. The building is still there and he's still living in the house. :yesnod: Another thing that was a rule in our HOA, no external TV antennas. 20 years ago a guy moved and put one of the big dishes in his yard, they pitched a fit, and lost that one too. My opinion of HOA's is that they are toothless old worn out things of the past.
Of course your mileage may vary depending on your State and Local laws.
Sounds like the laws vary greatly from state to state.
On the antenna thing:
Prior to the Telecommunications Act of 1996, HOAs could restrict or prohibit satellite dishes. Many communities still have these rules in their CC&Rs, but after October 1996, they are no longer enforceable. With a few exceptions, any homeowner may install a satellite dish of a size of one meter or smaller in diameter (larger dishes are protected in Alaska). While HOAs may encourage that dishes be placed as inconspicuously as possible, the dish must be allowed to be placed where it may receive a usable signal. Additionally, many HOAs have restrictive covenants prohibiting a homeowner from installing an OTA (Over-The-Air) rooftop antenna. These restrictions are also no longer enforceable, except in some instances. For example: the antenna may be installed at any location unless it imposes upon common property. Also, the antenna must be of a design to receive local, not long-distance signals and must not extend any higher than twelve feet above the top roof-line of the home, unless an exception is granted by the HOA due to extenuating terrestrial interference.[35]
In Florida, state law prevents covenants and deed restrictions from prohibiting "Florida-Friendly Landscaping,"[36] a type of xeriscaping. In spite of this law, at least one homeowner has faced harassment and threat of fines from a homeowners' group for having insufficient grass after landscaping his yard to reduce water usage.[37] Similar legislation was introduced and passed by the legislature in Colorado but was vetoed by governor Bill Owens.[38][39] Residents in Colorado have continued to call for regulation to protect xeriscaping, citing homeowners' associations which require the use of grasses that consume large quantities of water and threaten fines for those who do not comply with the covenants
prospero63
04-28-2011, 11:18am
I didn't change my fence one bit, just replaced it
I don't think those words mean what you think they do.
Bucwheat
04-28-2011, 11:57am
I understand they are keeping the neighborhood clean, safe and attractive to keep our values up,but they do go way to far,I threatened to have them arrested for tresspassing if they came on my property one more time,have not seen them since.
Mike Mercury
04-28-2011, 1:06pm
I understand they are keeping the neighborhood clean, safe and attractive to keep our values up,but they do go way to far...
I can't think of anywhere in my state that's free of all regulations/restrictions.
Even without a HOA, there's still state/county/city/township rules that keep a neighbor (in a residentual area) from raising hogs/or painting their house purple/or not trimming their lawns.
HOA's are solely an outlet for those with small-mans-syndrome to feel like they are now a big man.
http://dnewell1.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/napoleon-scratching.jpg
Scissors
04-28-2011, 1:29pm
This is the first time I've lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and the first 2.5 years never heard a peep out of them. Lately however they got some new people on the board and now I get hassled by them. First it was move your trash can, I've always had it where it was when I moved in which is the same spot about 2/3'ds of the rest of the neighborhood has theirs, no biggie I moved the trash can. Now I just had my rickety old fence replaced and it makes the house look 100% better but today I get a letter... We did an inspection and noticed you installed a new fence, well you need to submit plans, a survey and a detail of materials to be used before you can do that. Even though your fence is already up and it obviously is the exact same dimensions and location as the old fence we want all that stuff so send it to us.:banghead:
I wrote back on the form that the fence is the same as the old one and I don't have any of the info you requested, sorry I didn't check with you first. I'll probably get a lien on my house now. Assholes.
Heaven forbid they send me a letter saying "We appreciate you taking care of your home and making an effort to keep our neighborhood nice, good job."
Salt a huge penis into their yards.
Cobra4B
04-28-2011, 1:36pm
Even without a HOA, there's still state/county/city/township rules that keep a neighbor (in a residentual area) from raising hogs/or painting their house purple/or not trimming their lawns.
This... no HOA in my area, but every now and then I'll get a notice from the city inspector if I leave my car trailer out in front of my house for too long.
Salt a huge penis into their yards.
:hurray:
MrPeabody
04-28-2011, 1:37pm
I realize that, but HOAs almost operate as government within the local government. There are already laws in place for maintaining a property to community standards.
10 Things a Homeowners Association Won't Tell You: Mortgage Center - Yahoo! Finance (http://loan.yahoo.com/m/primer13.html)
Not everywhere. I live in an unicorporated county area, and building codes are very minimal here. They were non existant when this development opened in the late 60s. During the building boom a few years ago, the people would have made quick money by putting mobile homes on vacant lots. This would have been perfectly legal except for the HOA rules. You can see plenty of areas that went downhill this way.
My HOA is not a typical one, there is no common property, roads are maintained by the county, not gated, etc. We only pay $86 a year. They are pretty lax on rules about landscaping, fencing, etc. It doesn't look like a cookie-cutter neighborhood. They are very strong on weed abatement and fire safety matters, and work in conjunction with the local volunteer fire dept., who doesn't have the manpower or legal authority to enforce the standards the HOA does.
oyealiz
04-28-2011, 2:16pm
Trust me...as a HOA president for three years, they are in their board meeting at this moment talking about how big a dick you are because you're didn't follow the rules. :thumbs:
It's called "precedent", as soon as they let one slide, they have to let them all slide. Pull up your panties and submit the paperwork you agreed to submit when you moved into the neighborhood and agreed to the HOA.
:yesnod:
OP...Just put together a nice little packet. Include pix of old fence and new fence. Put a diagram. Put a copy of your payment, etc. You get the idea. :) And include in your coversheet, "I apologize for not submitting this before the fencing went up. Since I exactly duplicated the old fence, I didn't realize that it was required. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for all you do to keep our neighborhood awesome and our values up. Love, Munch."
Yes, I'm serious. It could save lots of future problems! :)
Where does an HOA get any legal authority?
From the law. Duh. :D
NeedSpeed
04-28-2011, 2:18pm
:yesnod:
From the law. Duh. :D
:slap:
oyealiz
04-28-2011, 2:19pm
exactly. Leftovers from the olden days - when socialism was thought to be a good idea.
I disagree.
HOAs are a very good idea for people who think they own not only their property but the right to ruin the looks/value of the entire neighborhood by allowing their property to look like crap.
oyealiz
04-28-2011, 2:20pm
:slap:
:D
:dance:
oyealiz
04-28-2011, 2:41pm
The theory of an HOA is a good idea.
The practice is still something to be desired.
My .02 FWIW. :cheers:
Oh, I totally agree, having lived in an HOA community run by angry elderly retired gay men. :willy:
Scissors
04-28-2011, 2:48pm
Socialism is when the government owns the means of production and distribution of goods. So, no, they aren't socialism. Likewise, they aren't communist in nature either.
In fact, they are corporations formed by the developer, and then handed off to the homeowners themselves. The board members are elected. It's what happens when you have a miniature democratic republic, but without constitutional protections.
oyealiz
04-28-2011, 2:50pm
Socialism is when the government owns the means of production and distribution of goods. So, no, they aren't socialism. Likewise, they aren't communist in nature either.
In fact, they are corporations formed by the developer, and then handed off to the homeowners themselves. The board members are elected. It's what happens when you have a miniature democratic republic, but without constitutional protections.
And add in apathy of the homeowners, right up til they are singled out for "violations."
MrPeabody
04-28-2011, 2:52pm
Socialism is when the government owns the means of production and distribution of goods. So, no, they aren't socialism. Likewise, they aren't communist in nature either.
In fact, they are corporations formed by the developer, and then handed off to the homeowners themselves. The board members are elected. It's what happens when you have a miniature democratic republic, but without constitutional protections.
Don't you read PR&C? Everything you don't like is now Socialism or Communism.:D
It's what happens when you have a miniature democratic republic
Exactly. "Democracy" is an enemy form of government just as vile as communism, fascism, etc.
The "progressives" popularized the term in America in the early 20th century.
Democracy and liberty are mutually exclusive.
NeedSpeed
04-28-2011, 3:07pm
Socialism is when the government owns the means of production and distribution of goods. So, no, they aren't socialism. Likewise, they aren't communist in nature either.
In fact, they are corporations formed by the developer, and then handed off to the homeowners themselves. The board members are elected. It's what happens when you have a miniature democratic republic, but without constitutional protections.
So all ya need to do is get a bunch of the neighbors together and form a union and strike. :D
Scissors
04-28-2011, 3:37pm
Exactly. "Democracy" is an enemy form of government just as vile as communism, fascism, etc.
The "progressives" popularized the term in America in the early 20th century.
Democracy and liberty are mutually exclusive.
...leaving Monarchy, Theocracy, and Dictatorship as the only ways to ensure liberty. :flag:
island14
04-28-2011, 9:05pm
You should have just told them you did not replace the fence..
You just sent it out to have it re-galvanized and put it back exactly where it was. :toetap:
Uncle Pervey
04-28-2011, 9:20pm
...leaving Monarchy, Theocracy, and Dictatorship as the only ways to ensure liberty. :flag:
You forgot about Libertarianism, Syndicalism and Anarchy! I lean toward Right Libertarianism but not quite Anarcho-capitalism, my view is more colored by Austrian School of Economics. :yesnod:
Constitutional Republic Baby. With a Constitution revolving around the concepts of LIMITED GOVERNMENT and INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY and a Bill of Rights that does NOT grant our rights, but merely ENUMERATES our GOD-GIVEN (or "natural" if you're an atheist) human rights that are inherently ours.
Too bad so many seek to destroy them, as well as the limits placed on government in the constitution proper. Take the laughable perversion of the commerce clause for example, which was designed to prevent the states from Balkanizing economically, and is now used by tyrants to enslave us on an individual basis.
vetteman9368
04-28-2011, 9:33pm
Oh, I totally agree, having lived in an HOA community run by angry elderly retired gay men. :willy:
i really don't think you should talk about Joecool like that:leaving:
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