RIP- Dallas Air Show Midair

[Chemtrails99]

Breaking news that Texas Raiders B-17 had a mid-air with the Houston Wing P-63 King Cobra, all souls lost. RIP to both the crews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yR1gSb9-s&t=9s

[99 pewtercoupe]

:sadangel:
I wonder if the B17 was carrying paying customers on that flight. It’s pretty common at air shows for them to sell rides on planes

[Chemtrails99]

:sadangel:
I wonder if the B17 was carrying paying customers on that flight. It’s pretty common at air shows for them to sell rides on planes

No, against the law to carry anyone outside the crews during airshow performance flights. Hearing 5 souls on board the B-17 and One in the P-63 King Cobra. Now waiting to hear who, as I have a number of friends that crew that 17 at differing times. One has checked in OK so far.

[GTOguy]

That's beyond terrible. RIP.

[Vandelay Industries]

Damn. May all involved RIP. :sadangel:

[Grey Ghost]

Just horrible.

The p-63 guy just slammed right into them. Looks like he never knew their position - always on his blind side.

[zeek]

Holy shit!! Damn....what a great loss. RIP to all.....:halfmast: :sadangel:
:sadangel::sadangel:

[Black94lt1]

:sadangel: RIP all those who perished :sadangel:

[BADRACR1]

Terrible news.:sadangel:

[Louie Detroit]

:sadangel:

[86RAG]

Wow, that was horrific. Very sad :sadangel:

[SnikPlosskin]

P63 was in above and banking. He probably never saw the bomber. At those altitudes is all visual and I don’t think those old planes have the tech for avoiding this (can’t remember the name of the tech)

[VITE1]

:sadangel:

[snide]

:sadangel:

[ZipZap]

P63 was in above and banking. He probably never saw the bomber. At those altitudes is all visual and I don’t think those old planes have the tech for avoiding this (can’t remember the name of the tech)

You're probably thinking about TCAS (Transponder Collision Avoidance System). I highly doubt either aircraft had it, and both need it for it to be effective. On top of that, TCAS would be screaming about anything inside a mile separation, so it's useless close in.

What is puzzling to me is that these were supposedly fly-bys. Not aerobatics. Given that, they should have had assigned altitude boxes for separation.

I think that was the ONLY P-63 in existence, and one of the now very few B-17's.

They never knew what hit them. RIP:sadangel:

[StaticCling]

P63 was in above and banking. He probably never saw the bomber. At those altitudes is all visual and I don’t think those old planes have the tech for avoiding this (can’t remember the name of the tech)

A lot of these old warbirds have updated Avionics. Standard Garmin 430 NAV/COM will give you traffic alerts. I'm not an Avionics specialist, but I think the NAV/COM has to be linked to an Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) transponder in order to get traffic alerts on the main display.

On the job back in the day, in uncontrolled airspace, we would occasionally get to close for comfort to other aircraft....But this has pretty much ended with the invention of ADS-B Receivers like the Sentry and Stratus combined with an APP on your Phone or iPad like Foreflight or Garmin Pilot. It allows you to see traffic and weather in real time overlayed on the Sectional. It's a very slick setup, and as a pilot myself I can't live without it now.

That said, can't really utilize equipment like that in an airshow environment, and this ultimately comes down to situational awareness/pilot error.

Really tough to watch this, and I am very sad about it. :sadangel:

[SQUIRMIN VERMIN 84]

B-17g "Texas Raiders" was one of the two B-17's still on CAF's roster.

Here is Texas Raiders' last take off and flight, along with the P-63 Kingcobra.

https://youtu.be/zIi2b2Ztem0

[Grey Ghost]

A yt video has an interview with one of the show workers. He said he heard the show boss tell the Cobra to overtake the B-17.

What I noticed is the Cobra seems to dive or not maintain his FL. I would imagine they all have a FL assigned to them for separation. If he had some type of medical emergency or was diving to gain speed? I think if he had maintained his FL everything would have been fine.

I visited the CAF when it was the Confederate Air Force in Harlingen, TX about 1980 or so. I've been to hundreds of airshows and collected WW2 aviation items for years. Read most every book and watched every movie.

[Chemtrails99]

Names are starting to come out officially, and it was Craig Hutain in the P-63. Craig had 34,500 hours and was certified in over 100 various types of aircraft. He was a current 777 captain. He was also a key person in the Tora, Tora, Tora air re-enactment group who flew highly choregraphed demo flights with fake combat and pyro set ups.

My question remains is, "What happened in the 45 seconds leading up to the midair?". Craig was out of place in a really weird place having seen this set up so many times over the years. The existing video barely shows impact and isn't clear as to why the P-63 was where it was. Everybody in the air knew where everybody else was supposed to be, they work endlessly on that very aspect of things.

Link to Craig's short bio: https://www.toratoratora.com/pilots-bio/craig-hutain

[Grey Ghost]

Doesn't even look real. The only thing I think it was a quick death for most. Maybe not if anyone was in the nose or extreme rear. But, he took out the flight deck and everything around it.

I still say if had maintained altitude and not given instructions to over take the B17....everything would have been fine.

https://i.imgur.com/KWCuwke.jpg

[Frankie the Fink]

Experienced crews in apparently mechanically sound aircraft and lots of speculation. The results of an investigation should be enlightening...
I've been to dozens of air shows and never even saw a close call, including aerobatic antique biplane demonstrations (and spectator rides were routinely given for a fee)..

[GTOguy]

A friend of mine almost got killed at Reno a few years back when the pilot of the Galloping Ghost P-51 passed out and augered in at 500 mph. No piece was bigger than a coffee can. Other instances have happened when the pilot passed out or had a heart attack. I watched John Shoemaker die at the Famoso March Meet 10 or so years ago. He was driving a vintage blown rail dragster and had a heart attack mid=run. He had his foot on the floor through the traps and into the fields at 300 MPH. He was 65. The P-63 is oddly out of sorts in the video and does not jibe with its pilot. But who knows.
What a huge loss for everybody---family, friends, citizens.

[Chemtrails99]

A friend of mine almost got killed at Reno a few years back when the pilot of the Galloping Ghost P-51 passed out and augered in at 500 mph. No piece was bigger than a coffee can. Other instances have happened when the pilot passed out or had a heart attack. I watched John Shoemaker die at the Famoso March Meet 10 or so years ago. He was driving a vintage blown rail dragster and had a heart attack mid=run. He had his foot on the floor through the traps and into the fields at 300 MPH. He was 65. The P-63 is oddly out of sorts in the video and does not jibe with its pilot. But who knows.
What a huge loss for everybody---family, friends, citizens.


In the Ghost crash he didn't pass out, the elevator trim tab came off and as a result the aircraft went into a climb through a 17+g pull that was uncontrollable. The force killed him instantly, and the aircraft torque rolled as it went vertical, and put it into a stall that sent it straight down. I wasn't there that year, but a number of team members were EMT's and firefighters and came from the pits to assist the injured.

My friends, The Barksdale family, were in the Box nearest the crash and 11 people immediately around them were killed. The father had small injuries, and Jason the son was badly injured and had all his clothing torn off by the force. As a result, it took many hours to track Jason down as still being alive and at a hospital. The family was bedside when he woke up, realized what had happened and his first words were, "Dad, I want to race Reno. I've always thought about it, but you never know when you won't have a chance to again.". His father agreed, trying to keep him calm and was surprised at the statement. Since then Jason has raced two aircraft in International Formula One at Reno and around the world. Two of our other Race Family are checked out and have flown Texas Raiders for the CAF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aRRZInkpiA

I agree that the P-63 is in a really weird place with the rest of the aircraft. A later video showed a B-24 just behind the B-17 with a number of fighters off it's wings. Hopefully video explaining the position long term before the collision will be found. Because the ones so far don't give enough detail to visualize the "Why" in the incident. (just like the few seconds of video of the crash in Jet Class this past Reno don't show what happened at the previous pylon that lead to the Hogue plane going down.).

[GTOguy]

Thanks, Chemtrail. My buddy told me he didn't know which way to run. It would have been a blessing if he had gotten hit, as he came down with ALS a year later and suffered beyond belief for the last 12 months of his life.
I had thought the pilot had passed out, as he is not visible in the cockpit. I guess he did, due to the G-pull and not a medical issue.

[Grey Ghost]

Blancoliro goes into great details about what happened on his yt channel.

Basically a few things caused it. But, pilot error is the main one. Cobra pilot was told to over take the B17. That caused his turn radius to be wider due to speed. They were all lining up to fly parallel to the runway without crossing a 'dead man' line. The Cobra was getting too close to the dead man line due to speed increase. He couldn't tighten his turn radius enough to stay within the limits and also the B17 was in his blind side and all were at the same altitude for some reason. Some say it's a recipe for disaster. The fighters being much faster than the bombers and no real altitude separation.

RIP to the wonderful Warbirds and souls on board.