Trickle down waterfall has already started...

[Datawiz]

In light of the tax reform that just passed, AT&T has announced that they will give 200,000 employees $1,000 bonuses, and now late tonight, Comcast has joined them, and will award 100,000 employees $1,000 bonuses and will now increase investment in infrastructure over the next 5 years to $50 billion.

So exactly how much does an extra $1,000 in 300,000 employee's hands impact the economy? It's huge. ;)

FU liberals. :kick:

If this waterfalls just like the women of hollywood crushing media moguls, our economy could have major positive impacts. So many businesses were cloistered due to the taxation rules. A shit ton of money will become repatriated, and the effects will spiral even further. :seasix:

[Jeff '79]

:cool1:

[DAB]

i should tell Mrs. DAB to give me a bonus check, for just being me. of course, she would have to take it out of our joint account, and then i'd deposit it in our joint account.....ah, never mind..... :DAB:

[Datawiz]

i should tell Mrs. DAB to give me a bonus check, for just being me. of course, she would have to take it out of our joint account, and then i'd deposit it in our joint account.....ah, never mind..... :DAB:

Understand the humor for sure.

I doubt you'd then use it for your free cell phone, and monthly stipend for all of your 9 illegitimate kids, as well as their health insurance. Then again, the individual mandate is now gone, so it's likely the Obamacare marketplace will collapse. :hurray:

[Millenium Vette]

This is huge, no doubt. I think it will be bigger than the 1986 tax cuts. Shit, just the anticipation of cuts this year has lit the economy up. Here in West Michigan, which is heavily dependent on manufacturing, there is a serious labor shortage. That wasn't the case the ten years before. The last time I recall employers begging for help was 1994.

NOBODY else could have pulled this off the way that President Trump has. It's amazing what happens when you have a leader in the White House.

[Thunder22]

My taxes went up.... just sayin'

[Millenium Vette]

My taxes went up.... just sayin'

How so? (I think I know the answer, but I am often wrong)

[Mike Mercury]

In light of the tax reform that just passed, AT&T has announced that they will give 200,000 employees $1,000 bonuses, and now late tonight, Comcast has joined them, and will award 100,000 employees $1,000 bonuses and will now increase investment in infrastructure over the next 5 years to $50 billion.



mentioning facts like these, means you surely are a

- racist
- bigoted
- manmade global warming denying
- sexist
- homophobic
- gun owning
- Mexico wall supporter

you might laugh; but give ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NBC time... and this is what will happen to everyone who doesn't keep it quiet.

[Thunder22]

How so? (I think I know the answer, but I am often wrong)

I live in NY/NJ.

'nuff said

[FasterTraffic]

I live in NY/NJ.

:iagree:

I think this is going to hurt. :faint:

[Jeff '79]

My combined school / property taxes are less than $10k so I'll still be able to write the full boat off on that.
Home equity loan interest? Not so much.
For me here in NYS, in my present situation, I calculate that I'll be +/- $1k to the good.
Hell, it's better than nothing.
Time will tell

[Stangkiller]

I live in NY/NJ.

'nuff said

Isn’t that because you were getting such a large state tax deduction, the feds were effectively subsidizing the state. Now it’s on your state and local officials to either take their hand out of your back pocket, or embrace the real effects of such high local taxes.

Your outrage should be squarely pointed at your state officials not the fed’s on this one.

[Milton Fox]

I would prefer receiving a bonus check in 2018 than now. :island14:

[SteelCityBlue]

This is huge, no doubt. I think it will be bigger than the 1986 tax cuts. Shit, just the anticipation of cuts this year has lit the economy up. Here in West Michigan, which is heavily dependent on manufacturing, there is a serious labor shortage. That wasn't the case the ten years before. The last time I recall employers begging for help was 1994.
.

wages up?

[VITE1]

If this tax bills delivers half of what it's promised this will be a significant short term bump and possible long term help to the market place.

One thing it will immediately help will be the Union pension funds that are significantly underfunded. If all the "Bad" thing the left is saying comes true and most businesses pay one time massive dividends and buy back stock then those funds will do significantly better short term.


If those businesses do what the right hope and reinvest in manufaturing and R&D in the USA then it will be a slow and steady increase in valuation for most of these funds as well.

IMHO the main reason the left fought this so hard was that when it works many , especially thier solid union base, will see that their policies of tax and spend are not the solution. And that kills them in 2018 and most likely 2020. The only real solution is solid GDP growth. No matter what the tax rates have been the last 100 years tax revenue is always between 18-20% of GDP.


I have written all my federal representatives telling them that now that we have tax cuts it time to cut spending. All of you need to do the same. When revenue rises politicians LOVE to find new ways to spend it no matter what their party affiliation is.

[Jeff '79]

If this tax bills delivers half of what it's promised this will be a significant short term bump and possible long term help to the market place.

One thing it will immediately help will be the Union pension funds that are significantly underfunded. If all the "Bad" thing the left is saying comes true and most businesses pay one time massive dividends and buy back stock then those funds will do significantly better short term.


If those businesses do what the right hope and reinvest in manufaturing and R&D in the USA then it will be a slow and steady increase in valuation for most of these funds as well.

IMHO the main reason the left fought this so hard was that when it works many , especially thier solid union base, will see that their policies of tax and spend are not the solution. And that kills them in 2018 and most likely 2020. The only real solution is solid GDP growth. No matter what the tax rates have been the last 100 years tax revenue is always between 18-20% of GDP.


I have written all my federal representatives telling them that now that we have tax cuts it time to cut spending. All of you need to do the same. When revenue rises politicians LOVE to find new ways to spend it no matter what their party affiliation is.

Yep... The credit card has a higher limit !
Let's use it says every politician in the country.:sadangel:

[Thunder22]

Isn’t that because you were getting such a large state tax deduction, the feds were effectively subsidizing the state. Now it’s on your state and local officials to either take their hand out of your back pocket, or embrace the real effects of such high local taxes.

Your outrage should be squarely pointed at your state officials not the fed’s on this one.

Don't tell me where to point my outrage :)

I bought into the system with a certain set of rules and have played by the rules religiously, and what I've gotten in return is a kick in the face from the guy I voted for. So basically I did this to myself.

I'm tired of the "it's on your local officials... blah blah blah" The cost of living here in NY/NJ/CT is far far higher than the rest of the country, and the tax breaks were partially in place to off set that, and now they're gone.

So unless you and others have the magic answer as to how to lower the cost of living around here, then you should really stop with the "vote them out" bullshit. Because both have about the same chance of happening.

And next someone will say - welll then just move. Ok, I'll take a poll at Christmas Eve and see if all 70 of us in my family want to do that. Because you know it's easy to just pick up and move to another state leaving your entire family behind. Not to mention, where would you have millions of people move to? your town? can your little towns handle an influx of new residents?

What happens when the all of the people living in the tri-state area move to other states, and those local governments have to provide services to the influx of new people? ooops, that's right, they raise taxes!!!! and then what happens? The cost of living goes up!!!! and we've come full circles.

So yeah, the bullshit of "vote them out", stop crying, etc etc. Yeah, no. The "tax cut for everyone" surely doesn't include "everyone".

[Sea Six]

Don't tell me where to point my outrage :)

I bought into the system with a certain set of rules and have played by the rules religiously, and what I've gotten in return is a kick in the face from the guy I voted for. So basically I did this to myself.

I'm tired of the "it's on your local officials... blah blah blah" The cost of living here in NY/NJ/CT is far far higher than the rest of the country, and the tax breaks were partially in place to off set that, and now they're gone.

So unless you and others have the magic answer as to how to lower the cost of living around here, then you should really stop with the "vote them out" bullshit. Because both have about the same chance of happening.

And next someone will say - welll then just move. Ok, I'll take a poll at Christmas Eve and see if all 70 of us in my family want to do that. Because you know it's easy to just pick up and move to another state leaving your entire family behind. Not to mention, where would you have millions of people move to? your town? can your little towns handle an influx of new residents?

What happens when the all of the people living in the tri-state area move to other states, and those local governments have to provide services to the influx of new people? ooops, that's right, they raise taxes!!!! and then what happens? The cost of living goes up!!!! and we've come full circles.

So yeah, the bullshit of "vote them out", stop crying, etc etc. Yeah, no. The "tax cut for everyone" surely doesn't include "everyone".

Those of us who don't live in high cost-of-living states would REALLY love to hear you try to justify why you should get an offset on your tax bill to compensate.

Go.

[Thunder22]

Those of us who don't live in high cost-of-living states would REALLY love to hear you try to justify why you should get an offset on your tax bill to compensate.

Go.

Your local/state governmetns get millions, sometimes billions back from the feds, we get nothing in comparison. And the money we do pay, offsets the fact that you don't pay as much. So we're subsidizing YOU.

Go.

And you live in Florida. You don't even pay state taxes, why are you even involved in this discussion?

[Bill]

Isn’t that because you were getting such a large state tax deduction, the feds were effectively subsidizing the state. Now it’s on your state and local officials to either take their hand out of your back pocket, or embrace the real effects of such high local taxes.

Your outrage should be squarely pointed at your state officials not the fed’s on this one.

It's time for high tax states to embrace the horror.

Get back to your roots, y'all. Bring on the tax revolts!

1776!

Liberals will be dumping I-pads into the harbor!

[Thunder22]

So yeah, I'm a little pissed that I and my fellow Republican neighbors who voted for Trump here in the North East are getting screwed by the new tax plan, you would be too. So let's just leave it at that, because I don't have a beef with anyone on here, or anyone who lives in another state etc etc etc.

That being said, what's middle class in the rest of the country and what's middle class here in NY/NJ/CT is far far different, as is the cost of living, which people tend to forget or leave out. So it's not as simple as myopically looking at someone's salary and drawing conclusions.

So all in all, yeah, i'm pissed, but I'll just go sob quietly over here in the corner by myself.

Here's a good article explaining how the new tax bill affects us here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/us/politics/fact-check-state-local-taxes-republican.html

[Sea Six]

Your local/state governmetns get millions, sometimes billions back from the feds, we get nothing in comparison. And the money we do pay, offsets the fact that you don't pay as much. So we're subsidizing YOU.

Go.

And you live in Florida. You don't even pay state taxes, why are you even involved in this discussion?

:funnier::funnier::funnier:



Swing, and a miss.



I knew you would not answer the question.

How? Because there is no way to justify why your state should have been compensated for its high cost of living in this case due to TAXES IMPOSED BY YOUR OWN STATE in the first place.

Care to try again?

[Thunder22]

:funnier::funnier::funnier:



Swing, and a miss.



I knew you would not answer the question.

How? Because there is no way to justify why your state should have been compensated for its high cost of living in this case due to TAXES IMPOSED BY YOUR OWN STATE in the first place.

Care to try again?

first of all, if you want to be antagonistic, go somewhere else, I dont' have a personal beef with you, i'm just pissed that i'm getting screwed.

2nd of all, i did, i posted a link to the article, here it is again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/us/politics/fact-check-state-local-taxes-republican.html

So in conclusion, relax.

:leaving:

[Stangkiller]

So yeah, I'm a little pissed that I and my fellow Republican neighbors who voted for Trump here in the North East are getting screwed by the new tax plan, you would be too. So let's just leave it at that, because I don't have a beef with anyone on here, or anyone who lives in another state etc etc etc.

That being said, what's middle class in the rest of the country and what's middle class here in NY/NJ/CT is far far different, as is the cost of living, which people tend to forget or leave out. So it's not as simple as myopically looking at someone's salary and drawing conclusions.

So all in all, yeah, i'm pissed, but I'll just go sob quietly over here in the corner by myself.

Here's a good article explaining how the new tax bill affects us here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/us/politics/fact-check-state-local-taxes-republican.html
You act like the tri-state area voted for Trump.

You claim nys gets nothing back while Florida does, and that’s where you’re wrong. The subsidies are just granted to nys dofferently than places like Florida, via the state deductions.

[Loco Vette]

A shit ton of money will become repatriated, and the effects will spiral even further. :seasix:

This is the best part of the whole deal. The libs will still whine about the "tax cut" but 20% of $1.4 TRILLION is a heck of a lot better than 0% and it staying abroad.

U.S. Companies holding $1.4 trillion offshore (http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/14/news/tax-us-companies-offshore-cash/index.html)

[Loco Vette]

I would prefer receiving a bonus check in 2018 than now. :island14:

And your employer would prefer to lower his/her taxable income in 2017 than 2018. Take it and run!

[Jeff '79]

In all fairness, Thunder 22 is right.
The cost of living in Manhattan and New Jersey are outrageous.
An interview I saw yesterday with an NYC real estate agent was very telling.
Prospective clients are already pulling out of deals due to the elimination of the mortgage interest deduction cap and the elimination of the state & sales tax deduction .
Will this hurt real estate in the long run or will it drive wages up so people can afford to live where they work. Will it cause inflation?
The infrastructure in these areas is massive and the upkeep warrants higher taxes. I'm not saying that there is no waste, but it costs a lot of money to maintain Manhattan and the surrounding areas. Just take a ride around there and you'll get it.
The cost of living in Buffalo is a lot less than NYC, but so are the wages, so we won't be affected like they are.
Here is a pretty sane article imo


by JIM GERAGHTY December 21, 2017 9:22 AM JimGERAGHTY From the Thursday edition of the Morning Jolt: Armageddon Updates “Probably one of the worst bills in the history of the United States of America… The debate on health care is like death. This is Armageddon.” – House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, describing the Republican tax cut bill, December 4. Ladies and gentlemen, witness the horror of our Armageddon: In the hours after Congress approved the GOP tax cut plan, a handful of companies jumped to announce plans to share some of the proceeds on their employees and spend on infrastructure. Boeing was first out of the gate, followed by AT&T, which said it would give more than 200,000 unionized employees a special bonus of $1,000 once the tax bill is signed. The company also said it would increase its capital expenditures by $1 billion. Both Fifth Third Bancorp and Wells Fargo followed, saying they would raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour. Fifth Third said it would also give workers a bonus, and Wells Fargo said it would give $400 million to community and nonprofit organizations next year. Comcast, which owns CNBC parent NBCUniversal, said it would pay 100,000 frontline and non-executive employees special $1,000 bonuses. The company also said it is making the move because of the FCC’s recent change in broadband rules and tax reform. It also said it plans to spend well in excess of $50 billion over the next five years on infrastructure improvements. “This is exciting stuff. This is good. This is not just a whole bunch of guys saying I can buy back a lot of stock here and jazz up my numbers through financial engineering. This is a bunch of business leaders saying we can use this tax benefit to grow our company, keep our loyal employees and assist the community,” said Dick Bove, banking analyst at Vertical Group. What’s fascinating is how many commentators you will see who will offer variations of A) “This is just one/two/three/four/five companies!” B) “$1,000 isn’t really that much!” C) The companies and corporate executives will get a lot more!” and so on. They can’t look at announcements like this and say, “oh, good. A lot of workers will get some more money in their pockets as 2018 begins, this can only be a good thing.” In a better, more reasonable, less reflexively partisan world, we would all be willing to applaud when an idea we didn’t support has at least one good effect. Do you notice the irony of a giant tax cut motivating big companies to institute a $15/hour minimum wage for their workers? Could we at least get an “Amen!” from the Fight for 15 people? Even if these companies are making these moves with less-than-noble motives, wanting good publicity or to ingratiate themselves with the administration… so what? Do you think the workers getting those bonuses will feel like they’re tainted? “I’m going to tear up my bonus check, I think they’re just trying to use me for a photo-op.” Something to keep an eye on in the coming days are people who claim they’re getting socked with a big tax hike under the plan who don’t or won’t spell out how they reached that conclusion. Yesterday I encountered a Twitter user living in Detroit who insisted, “many of us pay way more than $10k in state and local taxes and don’t reach the AMT limit and only get a slight break on tax rate.” For 2017, the alternative minimum tax kicks in at $54,300 for those filing singly and $84,500 for those married and filing jointly. If you’re under that level, your income tax rate is going down three percentage points under the new system both single and married taxpayers. Plus, if you’re making less than the AMT limit, I’m trying to figure out how you can possibly be paying “way more than $10,000 in state and local taxes.” Maybe someone could find themselves with a bad tax bill if they make a modest salary but own a lot of property and get hit with property taxes. Michigan has a 4.25 percent state income tax, there’s a 2.4 percent Detroit income tax. Wayne County has a property tax that is complicated to calculate but is pretty high, averaging out to 2.6 percent. The property tax is high, but also remember that Detroit real estate is relatively cheap. How many people own non-revenue-generating high-value real estate in high-property tax jurisdictions, but their taxable earnings are below the AMT limit? Liberal Sirius XM host Dean Obeidallah declared on Twitter, “Just spoke to a friend in Massachusetts- the GOP tax plan will raise their taxes by $10,000 a year because they can no longer deduct state and local taxes from federal income. For a family of 5 that is very painful tax hike.” It’s difficult to determine without this unnamed person’s specific figures, but I don’t think that adds up; at the very least, they’re in a really unusual set of circumstances. Remember, if you’re used to deducting $20,000 in state and local taxes, it doesn’t mean your tax bill goes up by $10,000. It means your taxable income goes up by $10,000. To calculate out to a tax hike of $10,000, this unnamed friend must have an unbelievably high state and local tax bill. (Remember, the average state and local tax deduction for a filer in New York City is $24,000; this unnamed friend would have to be deducting way more than that to add up a $10,000 increase in taxes due. At 5.1 percent, Massachusetts’ income tax rate is actually on the lower end of the national spectrum.) Again, maybe this person has an enormous property tax bill, but it’s hard to believe that the reduction in this taxpayer’s income tax rate wouldn’t offset the increase in taxable income without the SALT deduction. (Keep in mind, this family of five, with presumably three dependents, just had their child tax credit increase by $400 per child, or $1,200 in total.) In other words, in pretty rare circumstances, the changes in the tax bill could calculate out to a net tax hike. It’s just odd that all of those people happen to be the unnamed friends of liberal commentators.

Read more at: Nancy Pelosi Said that Tax Cut Was Armageddon Updates from the Businesses Giving Bonuses | National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454851/nancy-pelosi-said-tax-cut-was-armageddon-updates-businesses-giving-bonuses)

[Thunder22]

You act like the tri-state area voted for Trump.

You claim nys gets nothing back while Florida does, and that’s where you’re wrong. The subsidies are just granted to nys dofferently than places like Florida, via the state deductions.

How in the hell did you possibly draw that conclusion? holy crap dude.

Like I told Sea Six, i'm not looking for a fight here, but you obviously are, and I have no interest in that, so go find it somewhere else. And while you're at it, don't make sh*t up just to cause/prolong an argument. I never even came close to saying that the tri-state voted for Trump. :slap::slap:

[Thunder22]

In all fairness, Thunder 22 is right.
The cost of living in Manhattan and New Jersey are outrageous.
An interview I saw yesterday with an NYC real estate agent was very telling.
Prospective clients are already pulling out of deals due to the elimination of the mortgage interest deduction cap and the elimination of the state & sales tax deduction .


Thanks. People who don't live here or aren't in this situation just don't understand it, or choose not to, because they think that everyone that lives here is a card carrying socialist/liberal dbag. Well, that's not true, and we who voted for Trump in this areas have been caught up in the political aspect of the new tax bill aimed at sticking it to the areas on the coast that are chock full of said liberals. Unfortunately, we get caught in the nets as well.

I was hoping that part of the bill would include the following verbiage on the new 1040 form: "check this box if you're a registered Republican living in NY/NJ/CT as this new law won't affect you, and as a gift for voting for Mr. Trump, you can ignore the AMT as well! Merry Christmas! MAGA! "

But I'm not going to hold my breath on that one :)

[Bill]

Thanks. People who don't live here or aren't in this situation just don't understand it, or choose not to, because they think that everyone that lives here is a card carrying socialist/liberal dbag. Well, that's not true, and we who voted for Trump in this areas have been caught up in the political aspect of the new tax bill aimed at sticking it to the areas on the coast that are chock full of said liberals. Unfortunately, we get caught in the nets as well.

I was hoping that part of the bill would include the following verbiage on the new 1040 form: "check this box if you're a registered Republican living in NY/NJ/CT as this new law won't affect you, and as a gift for voting for Mr. Trump, you can ignore the AMT as well! Merry Christmas! MAGA! "

But I'm not going to hold my breath on that one :)

I understand your ire. Now, questions. Do you think this new tax landscape will cause a "taxpayer's revolt" in your state? Will you and the more liberal voters in your state team up to demand lower taxes?

Texas has no income tax, but has, to me, high real estate tax. $ 4,500 a year on a 2,8xx sq. foot nothing special house seems friggen outrageous to me, and Texas property owners are always complaining, and our feckless legislature usually talks about doing something, but never quite gets anything done. We are mad, but not yet to the point of tiki torches and pitchforks mad. Seems like you folks ought to be well past the pitchfork stage.

@Jeff: I get that certain areas are just going to be more expensive, Manhattan, as an example. I don't see why upstate NY, or rural NJ should be so much more expensive, though, other than the fact that high taxes have driven the cost of everything higher. Seems like the way to fix this is to gradually reduce the cost of government, and that should result in a commensurate reduction in the cost of living in those areas.

[Millenium Vette]

wages up?

Yes

[Thunder22]

I understand your ire. Now, questions. Do you think this new tax landscape will cause a "taxpayer's revolt" in your state? Will you and the more liberal voters in your state team up to demand lower taxes?

Texas has no income tax, but has, to me, high real estate tax. $ 4,500 a year on a 2,8xx sq. foot nothing special house seems friggen outrageous to me, and Texas property owners are always complaining, and our feckless legislature usually talks about doing something, but never quite gets anything done. We are mad, but not yet to the point of tiki torches and pitchforks mad. Seems like you folks ought to be well past the pitchfork stage.

@Jeff: I get that certain areas are just going to be more expensive, Manhattan, as an example. I don't see why upstate NY, or rural NJ should be so much more expensive, though, other than the fact that high taxes have driven the cost of everything higher. Seems like the way to fix this is to gradually reduce the cost of government, and that should result in a commensurate reduction in the cost of living in those areas.

Let me put something in perspective for you about property taxes in NJ:

I own a 2 bedroom townhouse, 2100 square feet, I don't own the land that it's built on, and my property taxes are close to $10,000 a year. And that's after fighting them twice in the last 15 years, having them lowered a bit, and they've just risen to the prior level. I would give my left nut for $4500 in property taxes :) :) :)

rural ny and nj are expensive because there aren't major industrial companies in rural areas to shoulder the tax burden. Take a look at how Passaic County NJ is formed, 2 rectangles with a connector in the middle, and you'll see how the .gov formed the county to spread commercial taxes further west.

While there is significant waste in NJ .gov, and I'm not arguing that at all, there is also a very high population count in the state, and with that high population comes high costs for services and infrastructure that don't exist in areas with less population. And as I said earlier, if NY/NJ residents did move to states without state taxes, like Texas, the demand for services in Texas will escalate, resulting in higher taxes, and again we've come full circle.

eh, i'm just pissed.... :ulan::ulan::ulan:

[Jeff '79]

I understand your ire. Now, questions. Do you think this new tax landscape will cause a "taxpayer's revolt" in your state? Will you and the more liberal voters in your state team up to demand lower taxes?

@Jeff: I get that certain areas are just going to be more expensive, Manhattan, as an example. I don't see why upstate NY, or rural NJ should be so much more expensive, though, other than the fact that high taxes have driven the cost of everything higher. Seems like the way to fix this is to gradually reduce the cost of government, and that should result in a commensurate reduction in the cost of living in those areas.

Have you ever been to Long Island, Manhattan, etc?
It costs $15.00 to cross the George Washington bridge from Manhattan to Long Island alone. Do that 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year and that is $3900.00 alone per year ! . The infrastructure there is mind boggling and drags the rest of the state down. It really is awe inspiring to see the roads, bridges, tunnels, subways, police presence, garbage service, snow removal, yadda, yadda, yadda.
If you were never there, you just won't get it.
Not to mention the fact that a shit-ton of people who commute to Manhattan to work never pay a cent of NY property tax because they live in NJ.
Upstate NY and Rural Jersey are paying high taxes to help subsidize Manhattan and NE , East , and South Jersey.
We always said that Manhattan and Long Island should their own state. My taxes would go down exponentially.

[Thunder22]

Here are some things to think about with regards to highly populated areas like NY/NJ/CT:

The city of NY has a police force of over 37,000 officers.

8.5 MILLION people live in 300 square miles of Manhattan and the 5 boroughs. eight. point. five. million.

The population of the island of Manhattan doubles on a work day to close to 4 million people on a 14 mile long by 10 mile wide ISLAND.

1.6 million people who live in Manhattan (just Manhattan, not brooklyn/queens/staten island or the bronx) live in 23 square miles. That's about 70k people per square mile.

[DAB]

Here are some things to think about with regards to highly populated areas like NY/NJ/CT:

The city of NY has a police force of over 37,000 officers.

8.5 MILLION people live in 300 square miles of Manhattan and the 5 boroughs. eight. point. five. million.

The population of the island of Manhattan doubles on a work day to close to 4 million people on a 14 mile long by 10 mile wide ISLAND.

1.6 million people who live in Manhattan (just Manhattan, not brooklyn/queens/staten island or the bronx) live in 23 square miles. That's about 70k people per square mile.

we have 15 acres. most of our neighbors also have 5-15 acre lots. one or two people per lot. so let's call that 1 person per 5 acres. that works out to 128 people per square mile (640 acres). we have roads, police, but no water supply and septic systems.

i'd think with all that NYC density, you'd be able to spread out the road costs a bit. and how long have those utility systems been in place? paid for long, long ago.

you are highly taxed because you have elected politicians who tax you highly.

[Jeff '79]

we have 15 acres. most of our neighbors also have 5-15 acre lots. one or two people per lot. so let's call that 1 person per 5 acres. that works out to 128 people per square mile (640 acres). we have roads, police, but no water supply and septic systems.

i'd think with all that NYC density, you'd be able to spread out the road costs a bit. and how long have those utility systems been in place? paid for long, long ago.

you are highly taxed because you have elected politicians who tax you highly.

Your roads, etc., last longer because they aren't used like Manhattan's. The volume of traffic beats the hell out of the infrastructure, therefore it needs to be maintained and replaced more often than your area roads.
Apples and oranges there.
I don't believe anyone ever denied that our elected politicians suck ballz.
A come to Jeezus era is coming their way now though.:yesnod:

[Bill]

Let me put something in perspective for you about property taxes in NJ:

I own a 2 bedroom townhouse, 2100 square feet, I don't own the land that it's built on, and my property taxes are close to $10,000 a year. And that's after fighting them twice in the last 15 years, having them lowered a bit, and they've just risen to the prior level. I would give my left nut for $4500 in property taxes :) :) :)

rural ny and nj are expensive because there aren't major industrial companies in rural areas to shoulder the tax burden. Take a look at how Passaic County NJ is formed, 2 rectangles with a connector in the middle, and you'll see how the .gov formed the county to spread commercial taxes further west.

While there is significant waste in NJ .gov, and I'm not arguing that at all, there is also a very high population count in the state, and with that high population comes high costs for services and infrastructure that don't exist in areas with less population. And as I said earlier, if NY/NJ residents did move to states without state taxes, like Texas, the demand for services in Texas will escalate, resulting in higher taxes, and again we've come full circle.

eh, i'm just pissed.... :ulan::ulan::ulan:

1) Ouch. The only way I could compare that is if your townhome was located in the most tony areas of Houston, River Oaks, West U., etc. Then it might be comparable. Otherwise, that's outrageous tax, and I'm assuming you didn't include the monthly assessment to the town home association that maintains the exterior. And state tax on top of that? Fuk. That's untenable.

2) Your explanation makes sense. Without plenty of commercial taxpayers, the burden falls heavy on homeowners. Rural Texas areas have this dilemma, and Texas had it solved for them by a federal judge with "Robin Hood" school finance. Property rich districts pay a portion of their haul to property poor districts. No one likes that solution. As to the rest, rural counties just have fewer services. They operate on a pay as you go system. Less tax revenue, less services. There are still gravel and oil topped roads in some Texas counties.

[Thunder22]

we have 15 acres. most of our neighbors also have 5-15 acre lots. one or two people per lot. so let's call that 1 person per 5 acres. that works out to 128 people per square mile (640 acres). we have roads, police, but no water supply and septic systems.

i'd think with all that NYC density, you'd be able to spread out the road costs a bit. and how long have those utility systems been in place? paid for long, long ago.

you are highly taxed because you have elected politicians who tax you highly.

The utility systems were built over 150 years ago, and weren't built to accommodate the population density that exists today. Not even close. And that includes the roads/bridges/tunnels/mass transit.

We are highly taxed because it costs a lot of money to keep the infrastructure running, expansion, and day to day maintenance for such a high population density, annnnd, politicians are politicians, not businessmen who know how to run New York State Inc, or New Jersey State Inc., they are a huge part of the problem in wasting money.

We, everyone in the US, basically elect politicians who have very little experience in dealing with the billion dollar budgets that come with running such high population states. I've never understood how someone can get elected to run say NY state, and have ZERO business experience.

I've told friends frequently that the POTUS should be a businessman capable of running a trillion dollar business, and the VP and Sec'y of State should be the politicians tasked with handling the politics. But no one listens to me :)

[Thunder22]

1) Ouch. The only way I could compare that is if your townhome was located in the most tony areas of Houston, River Oaks, West U., etc. Then it might be comparable. Otherwise, that's outrageous tax, and I'm assuming you didn't include the monthly assessment to the town home association that maintains the exterior. And state tax on top of that? Fuk. That's untenable.

2) Your explanation makes sense. Without plenty of commercial taxpayers, the burden falls heavy on homeowners. Rural Texas areas have this dilemma, and Texas had it solved for them by a federal judge with "Robin Hood" school finance. Property rich districts pay a portion of their haul to property poor districts. No one likes that solution. As to the rest, rural counties just have fewer services. They operate on a pay as you go system. Less tax revenue, less services. There are still gravel and oil topped roads in some Texas counties.


Correct, my HOA fees are now over $600/month. They started at $145 in 2005 when I bought my place.

[DAB]

the house we sold in MD in 2010 is now taxed at about 4600/year, with a max of 10% per year increase. our house here is taxed at about 3400/year, with a max of 3% per year increase.

everyone needs an FU fund. enough coin so they can quit their current job and pack up and go elsewhere if they want to. amounts will vary.

[Bill]

Have you ever been to Long Island, Manhattan, etc?
It costs $15.00 to cross the George Washington bridge from Manhattan to Long Island alone. Do that 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year and that is $3900.00 alone per year ! . The infrastructure there is mind boggling and drags the rest of the state down. It really is awe inspiring to see the roads, bridges, tunnels, subways, police presence, garbage service, snow removal, yadda, yadda, yadda.
If you were never there, you just won't get it.
Not to mention the fact that a shit-ton of people who commute to Manhattan to work never pay a cent of NY property tax because they live in NJ.
Upstate NY and Rural Jersey are paying high taxes to help subsidize Manhattan and NE , East , and South Jersey.
We always said that Manhattan and Long Island should their own state. My taxes would go down exponentially.

Vacationed in Manhattan, rode the Orient Express to Brooklyn, did the Staten Island Ferry, and spent a few days upstate. Spring Valley? The town where the American Chopper TV show was filmed, etc. What struck me is once you left Manhattan on the Pallisades, damn, it's beautiful, not anything like I expected.

[Thunder22]

What also hurts about the tax bill is the elimination of the individual deduction of $4050, coupled with them not repealing the AMT (all they did was raise the floor a meaningless amount).

10. Fewer people will have to deal with the alternative minimum tax.

The alternative minimum tax, a parallel tax system that ensures people who receive a lot of tax breaks still pay some federal income taxes, remains in place for individuals. But fewer people will have to worry about calculating their tax liability under the AMT moving forward. The exemption has been raised to $70,300 for singles, and to $109,400 for married couples.

[Thunder22]

Vacationed in Manhattan, rode the Orient Express to Brooklyn, did the Staten Island Ferry, and spent a few days upstate. Spring Valley? The town where the American Chopper TV show was filmed, etc. What struck me is once you left Manhattan on the Pallisades, damn, it's beautiful, not anything like I expected.

Most people don't know that Suffolk County on Long Island eastward, which comprises most of the Island including the fabled Hamptons, was mostly potato farms until people realized, hey, wait, this is an island, there's beach front property to live on!!!!

that being said, from the Nassau/Suffolk border, inland, not on the north or south shores, a big chunk of the island is still farms, wineries, and pine barrens.

The same can be said of NJ. NJ gets a bad rap because when people visit here, and travel the NJ Turnpike, all they see are huge factories, refineries, and other not beautiful to look at scenery. And that's because those types of industries were purposely built around the transportation/roads that they needed to make their businesses run. If you go 5-10 miles West of the Turnpike, that's where you see how gorgeous NJ really is.

Hell, even the Palisades Parkway that runs north/south from the GW Bridge has some great scenery for almost the entire length of the road.

[FasterTraffic]

I'm glad we have this thread as I considered asking CA folks, e.g., Need-A-Vette their opinion on the tax changes.

Personally, I have two perspectives on this change:

(1) It's the right thing to do. The federal government shouldn't subsidize the liberal kleptocracy in Sacramento. Like many other things related to government and taxes, it's an exception that condones bad behavior.

(2) My family is falling on the grenade for this. :( It wouldn't be so bad if I had any hope, any at all, that CA would take steps quickly to lighten the burden. As Jerry Brown and his cohorts have shown time and time again, there is no such thing as a bad tax because of all the wonderful things they can do with all our money. They have a tax for something, use that money for something else, and then enact a new tax to pay for s**t the first tax should have covered (e.g., SB1). The loss of SALT is going to hurt for a very, very long time. I doubt there will be any pitchforks and torches because a large portion of the CA population are net consumers who pay little or no tax themselves and want everything subsidized, and another large portion have so much money that they'll skip one or two chartered jet trips a year and forget about the new taxes. I find it extremely unlikely that there is a big enough constituency to force Sacramento to roll back spending.

Long-term, the lowering of mortgage interest deduction is likely to have a less obvious negative effect.

Some salt in the wound...

Married couples get less of a benefit with the new SALT deduction since the limit is the same for both single and married filers.

"This is pretty clearly a marriage penalty," said Faulhaber from Georgetown. "If you have two unmarried taxpayers both paying $10,000 in SALT, they will get an aggregate $20,000 when they file, whereas if they get married they suddenly lose $10,000 in deductions."

[bsmith]

Texas has no income tax, but has, to me, high real estate tax. $ 4,500 a year on a 2,8xx sq. foot nothing special house seems friggen outrageous to me.

Try $4000 taxes on a 1600fsf house, AND 6% state income tax, AND 7.5% sales tax.
Welcome to Nebraska, the Tax Me state.

[Bill]

I'm glad we have this thread as I considered asking CA folks, e.g., Need-A-Vette their opinion on the tax changes.

Personally, I have two perspectives on this change:

(1) It's the right thing to do. The federal government shouldn't subsidize the liberal kleptocracy in Sacramento. Like many other things related to government and taxes, it's an exception that condones bad behavior.

(2) My family is falling on the grenade for this. :( It wouldn't be so bad if I had any hope, any at all, that CA would take steps quickly to lighten the burden. As Jerry Brown and his cohorts have shown time and time again, there is no such thing as a bad tax because of all the wonderful things they can do with all our money. They have a tax for something, use that money for something else, and then enact a new tax to pay for s**t the first tax should have covered (e.g., SB1). The loss of SALT is going to hurt for a very, very long time. I doubt there will be any pitchforks and torches because a large portion of the CA population are net consumers who pay little or no tax themselves and want everything subsidized, and another large portion have so much money that they'll skip one or two chartered jet trips a year and forget about the new taxes. I find it extremely unlikely that there is a big enough constituency to force Sacramento to roll back spending.

Long-term, the lowering of mortgage interest deduction is likely to have a less obvious negative effect.

Some salt in the wound...

Your best hope is that Trump's wall and deportation machine will start reducing the amount of takers in your state. That will take some time to achieve, but every illegal you get out lessens the burden on taxpayers. Start putting real numbers on the board and that has to help out your schools, hospitals, prisons, etc. I can't believe that even the Kate Steinle murder hasn't changed the hearts and minds of liberal California voters. WTF happened to, "if it could save just one life?" Protecting criminals from deportation doesn't fit with that narrative at all.

[Thunder22]

Try $4000 taxes on a 1600fsf house, AND 6% state income tax, AND 7.5% sales tax.
Welcome to Nebraska, the Tax Me state.

That's a tax break to NY and NJ residents :)

[bsmith]

That's a tax break to NY and NJ residents :)

Oh, I know.
I'm comparing to Texas...and we don't have anything to do around here.

[Thunder22]

Oh, I know.
I'm comparing to Texas...and we don't have anything to do around here.

gotcha...

[SteelCityBlue]

Oh, I know.
I'm comparing to Texas...and we don't have anything to do around here.

Where does all that money go?

[Bill]

Try $4000 taxes on a 1600fsf house, AND 6% state income tax, AND 7.5% sales tax.
Welcome to Nebraska, the Tax Me state.

Rough. Our sales tax is around 8.25% with many exemptions, including food and medicine. Auto sales tax is 6.25%, which is the state's cut of all sales tax. I'm OK with that as I'd prefer a consumption tax to an income tax, although.....





All Taxation is Theft

Sometimes, you've just got to let the libertarian out!

[VITE1]

It would be nice of the people in the states who got screwed by this tax package did 1 of 2 things.

1)Start voting for politicans who will cut spending as well as local taxes

2) Vote with your feet. I did in 1995. Due to that move I was able to afford a higher quality lifestyle, college paid for my two kids and a low 7 figure retirement net egg.

Many friends and family back on LI NY can't afford retirement unless they were public employees. Even then their lifestyle suffers compared to mine.

[bsmith]

Where does all that money go?
Damn fine question.
Schools are underfunded, locally were going to have another bond issue for a new jail foisted on us soon. The city I live in approved a $250k outdoor restroom at a crappy public park.
The average house here is half that amount.
Roads are terrible, and the state is facing a big budget shortfall in the coming years.

Rough. Our sales tax is around 8.25% with many exemptions, including food and medicine. Auto sales tax is 6.25%, which is the state's cut of all sales tax. I'm OK with that as I'd prefer a consumption tax to an income tax, although.....





All Taxation is Theft

Sometimes, you've just got to let the libertarian out!

Card-carrying Libertarian here. :cheers:

[Thunder22]

It would be nice of the people in the states who got screwed by this tax package did 1 of 2 things.

1)Start voting for politicans who will cut spending as well as local taxes

2) Vote with your feet. I did in 1995. Due to that move I was able to afford a higher quality lifestyle, college paid for my two kids and a low 7 figure retirement net egg.

Many friends and family back on LI NY can't afford retirement unless they were public employees. Even then their lifestyle suffers compared to mine.

1) Why do you assume we didn't/don't? I'm not a democrat/liberal complaining what big bad Trump did, i'm a Republican who voted for Trump who is complaining that despite voting that way, I still got screwed.

2) As I said earlier, this isn't realistic, all it does is move the tax burden to the destination state. Do you think a state like Florida or Texas could handle 2M or even 500,000 new residents without some sort of tax increase?

And, even if it were realistic, the NY salary doesn't move with you.

[Datawiz]

And, even if it were realistic, the NY salary doesn't move with you.

I make a strong NY salary working for a NY company, from Florida :leaving:

[DAB]

I make a strong NY salary working for a NY company, from Florida :leaving:

Different shorts and flip flops for each day of the week!

[Datawiz]

Different shorts and flip flops for each day of the week!

While they are different every day, I wear the same exact thing every day. I have 30 of the same black t-shirt, and blue or black shorts. :funnier: And I go barefoot. :D

[VITE1]

1) Why do you assume we didn't/don't? I'm not a democrat/liberal complaining what big bad Trump did, i'm a Republican who voted for Trump who is complaining that despite voting that way, I still got screwed.

2) As I said earlier, this isn't realistic, all it does is move the tax burden to the destination state. Do you think a state like Florida or Texas could handle 2M or even 500,000 new residents without some sort of tax increase?

And, even if it were realistic, the NY salary doesn't move with you.

1) I lived on LI NY for 40 years. My Dad was a money bundler for the Republican party in Suffolk for decades. IIRC Suffolk went for Trump in 2016. They still have the massive Dem strong holds of the Tri State area screwing the rest of NYS. You didn't get screwed by Trump. You have been getting screwed by NYS and now it's without the lube of tax deductions.

2) Yet allowing the tax deduction moves the burden to the states that don't have in like NH and FL. And IF TX or FL got new residents if they don't have jobs let them die. FL is #1 in the USA for interstate migration of HNW individuals. Let them come here with their money, jobs and mostly conservative viewpoints.


And My NY salary did move with me because I moved my whole business. I got to save 200.00 extra a WEEK due to lower costs, lower taxes and cheaper housing. And I lived much better. Went from a 1200 SQFT condo in Central Islip NY to a 3200 SQFT house in Salem NH for the the same monthly costs.

[DAB]

While they are different every day, I wear the same exact thing every day. I have 30 of the same black t-shirt, and blue or black shorts. :funnier: And I go barefoot. :D

ah, casual monday/tuesday/wednesday/thursday/friday !!!!

[Wathen1955]

I'm glad we have this thread as I considered asking CA folks, e.g., Need-A-Vette their opinion on the tax changes.

Personally, I have two perspectives on this change:

(1) It's the right thing to do. The federal government shouldn't subsidize the liberal kleptocracy in Sacramento. Like many other things related to government and taxes, it's an exception that condones bad behavior.

(2) My family is falling on the grenade for this. :( It wouldn't be so bad if I had any hope, any at all, that CA would take steps quickly to lighten the burden. As Jerry Brown and his cohorts have shown time and time again, there is no such thing as a bad tax because of all the wonderful things they can do with all our money. They have a tax for something, use that money for something else, and then enact a new tax to pay for s**t the first tax should have covered (e.g., SB1). The loss of SALT is going to hurt for a very, very long time. I doubt there will be any pitchforks and torches because a large portion of the CA population are net consumers who pay little or no tax themselves and want everything subsidized, and another large portion have so much money that they'll skip one or two chartered jet trips a year and forget about the new taxes. I find it extremely unlikely that there is a big enough constituency to force Sacramento to roll back spending.

Long-term, the lowering of mortgage interest deduction is likely to have a less obvious negative effect.

Some salt in the wound...
I'm in Northern CA, about 20 miles north-west of Sacramento. Moved here 2.5 years ago from Southern CA where I was born in 1955 in San Diego.

My property tax is $8000/yr. This does not include all the other ridiculous taxes like the latest gas tax increase, the state tax of 11%, plus any local taxes. I've already signed a petition to repeal this new tax, and have it on the ballot for next election cycle where it will require the citizens to vote for the increase instead of the money grabbing socialists in Sacramento.

I know exactly what Thunder is talking about. I more than likely will be in the same boat. The ones living in Silicone Valley and San Fransisco will get screwed big time.

[Bill]

I'm in Northern CA, about 20 miles north-west of Sacramento. Moved here 2.5 years ago from Southern CA where I was born in 1955 in San Diego.

My property tax is $8000/yr. This does not include all the other ridiculous taxes like the latest gas tax increase, the state tax of 11%, plus any local taxes. I've already signed a petition to repeal this new tax, and have it on the ballot for next election cycle where it will require the citizens to vote for the increase instead of the money grabbing socialists in Sacramento.

I know exactly what Thunder is talking about. I more than likely will be in the same boat. The ones living in Silicone Valley and San Fransisco will get screwed big time.

For comparison, we'd need to know rough square footage, and if your house sits on acreage. Plenty of people in my area are paying that or more. They have pretty nice house, though.

[FasterTraffic]

For comparison, we'd need to know rough square footage, and if your house sits on acreage. Plenty of people in my area are paying that or more. They have pretty nice house, though.

For reference, this is an entry-level single-family home around here:

1,825 sq ft
3 bd, 2 bth
4,800 sq ft lot
$6,943 property tax/year

[MrPeabody]

In light of the tax reform that just passed, AT&T has announced that they will give 200,000 employees $1,000 bonuses, and now late tonight, Comcast has joined them, and will award 100,000 employees $1,000 bonuses and will now increase investment in infrastructure over the next 5 years to $50 billion.

So exactly how much does an extra $1,000 in 300,000 employee's hands impact the economy? It's huge. ;)

FU liberals. :kick:

If this waterfalls just like the women of hollywood crushing media moguls, our economy could have major positive impacts. So many businesses were cloistered due to the taxation rules. A shit ton of money will become repatriated, and the effects will spiral even further. :seasix:

And I just got a letter in the mail from them (AT&T Direct TV) saying they are raising my internet/cable rates.

[snide]

For reference, this is an entry-level single-family home around here:

1,825 sq ft
3 bd, 2 bth
4,800 sq ft lot
$6,943 property tax/year

My property taxes are slightly less, for 2500 sqft, 4 bed, 2 1/2 bath, home on a 4 acre lot.

[Bill]

California Lawmakers Propose Health Coverage for Immigrants - The New York Times (http://archive.is/HBiy4)


Hey Californians. Dig a little deeper, 'cause that ADDITIONAL $ 1 Billion dollars for illegal alien health care doesn't grow on trees.

[MrPeabody]

California Lawmakers Propose Health Coverage for Immigrants - The New York Times (http://archive.is/HBiy4)


Hey Californians. Dig a little deeper, 'cause that ADDITIONAL $ 1 Billion dollars for illegal alien health care doesn't grow on trees.

That's interesting, seeing as how everyone here and on CF PR&C always says California already gives free health care to illegal immigrants. :rofl:

[MrPeabody]

My property taxes are slightly less, for 2500 sqft, 4 bed, 2 1/2 bath, home on a 4 acre lot.

Our property taxes are based on the assessed value of the property. Lot size, square footage, number of bedrooms, doesn't really matter. Your house in some areas of my county would be worth well under 500,000. In Santa Clara County, probably 3-5 million. Possibly more depending on exact location.

[Bill]

That's interesting, seeing as how everyone here and on CF PR&C always says California already gives free health care to illegal immigrants. :rofl:

That an ADDITIONAL $ 1B, on top of what you are already paying.

The proposal would eliminate legal residency requirements in California's Medicaid program, known as Medi-Cal, as the state has already done for young people up to age 19.

But hey, don't feel bad. Tejas gives illegal aliens in state tuition at all of our many fine public colleges, so there's that.

:hide:

[JRD77VET]

I live in NY/NJ.

'nuff said

No free ride in PA. Highest state gas tax in the nation https://taxfoundation.org/state-gasoline-tax-rates-2017/

Plus my school taxes climb every freaking year plus property taxes.

I'm sure this "tax break" might help a bit but Mary and I don't have any children so all previous "tax incentives" passed us by too.

Basically I'm getting ready to get screwed again. My ONLY hope is my employer raising my pay due to his lower tax bill.

[Wathen1955]

For comparison, we'd need to know rough square footage, and if your house sits on acreage. Plenty of people in my area are paying that or more. They have pretty nice house, though.

4 bedrooms
3 baths
2,739 sqft

No acreage. I guess it's on par with everyone else's property taxes. What saves us is proposition 13.

About Prop. 13?
Those who have owned their homes for a while, easily see the value of Proposition 13. Many of us remember that before Proposition 13 the average property tax rate in California was three percent of assessed value and there was no limit on annual increases.

In those days, if a house on your block sold for much more than you paid for your house, you shuddered in fear when you received your next property tax bill. Chances are, your new taxes would be based on what your new neighbor was willing to pay for his home. Things got so bad in the late 1970s that people were actually losing their homes because of uncontrolled tax increases.

Thanks to Howard Jarvis, Paul Gann and Proposition 13, the assessment rate is now only one percent for all California property and annual tax increases are limited to no more than two percent. When property is sold it is then reassessed at market value, but the rate remains at one percent and the new owner is then protected by the two percent cap on annual increases.

[mrvette]

NYC is nothing but offices, one end to another, a few factories, and some material handling, but the city 'survives' off the extensive office and Administrative folks....now I take in Gwiz comment about tele-commuting for a company that pays NYC wages to a guy in FLORIDA.....and he is on the cutting edge on that, I say in another few years or so, most everyone will be tele-commuting, my son's wife out in Ca....heads into SF maybe once a month or so....3 hours each way....she works out of home office.....high level programming.....

I see a future where ladies like woman I saw some 35 years ago, walking in the winter in her full length EXPENSIVE fur coat, me in a cab heading from airport to Maiden La/Wall St. and a 20 buck burger for lunch.....anyway, there she was in cold/chilly miserable rain/sleet shit, walking her precious dawg, diamonds on the leash, and a brown bad with shovel in her other hand.....she has to scoop up the dawg shit.......SO I just laughed my ass off, and wondered WHY?? and the cabby had no answer.....:lol::issues:

BTW, my prop taxes on 1600' 2 car plus glass porch are 550/YEAR, witch included trash/bicycle pickup......age 73 homestead in olde phardt.....


when I left Md. the letter went out already that my prop taxes were going from ~1500/year toooooo about 5 grand in 3 years......gave the house away, yet another incentive to MOVE...plus of course a shiitty skeleton and 4' of snow in the drive....:issues: