Update: 7/11/17 USS Fitzgerald

[Norm]

The U.S. Navy on Tuesday said it has temporarily relieved, for medical reasons, the commander of a warship involved in a crash with a container vessel in Japanese waters that killed seven American sailors.

The collision between the guided missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald and the Philippine-registered ACX Crystal on June 17 resulted in the greatest loss of life on a U.S. Navy vessel since the USS Cole was bombed by Islamist militants in Yemen's Aden harbour in 2000.

At least six investigations have been launched, including two U.S. Navy internal hearings and a probe by the United States Coast Guard (USCG).

"Cmdr Bryce Benson, who is recovering from injuries sustained during Fitzgerald's June 17 collision with the merchant vessel ACX Crystal was relieved temporarily," the U.S. Navy Seventh Fleet said in a press release.

None of the investigations has apportioned blame for the accident, or
explained how an advanced U.S. warship with sophisticated radars and trained lookouts sailing in clear, albeit dark, conditions was struck by a vessel more than three times its size.

In the first detailed account from one of those directly involved in the collision, the cargo ship's captain, in a report seen by Reuters, said the ACX Crystal signalled the Fitzgerald with flashing lights about 10 minutes before the collision, but that it did not respond or alter course.

The U.S. Navy has said it would not comment until the investigations were complete.

The Fitzgerald is in dry dock at its home port in Yokosuka, Japan. Engineers are undertaking temporary repairs and will assess whether the damaged vessel can sail back to the United States.

(Reporting by Tim Kelly; Editing by Robert Birsel)
Reuters

[6spdC6]

Want to bet that the temporarily relieved will turn out to be a permanent relieved, and next assignment will be a desk in a broom closet somewhere in the basement.

[Norm]

Hard to say, if the CDR is f*ck-up, most likely a medical retirement is in his future.

[OddBall]

If your injuries are severe enough, then of course you'll be relieved. But yeah, there might be some smoke-screening going on there too. Hard to say.

[JRD77VET]

Hard to say, if the CDR is f*ck-up, most likely a medical retirement is in his future.

If your injuries are severe enough, then of course you'll be relieved. But yeah, there might be some smoke-screening going on there too. Hard to say.

As reported in an earlier thread, he was injured in the collision.
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/off-topic/109636-update-uss-fitzgerald.html
Those who died were in their berthing compartments, while the Fitzgerald's commander was injured in his cabin, suggesting that no alarm warning of an imminent collision was sounded.

[RedLS1GTO]

None of the investigations has apportioned blame for the accident, or
explained how an advanced U.S. warship with sophisticated radars and trained lookouts sailing in clear, albeit dark, conditions was struck by a vessel more than three times its size.

In the first detailed account from one of those directly involved in the collision, the cargo ship's captain, in a report seen by Reuters, said the ACX Crystal signalled the Fitzgerald with flashing lights about 10 minutes before the collision, but that it did not respond or alter course.


I will stick with my original statements. Fitzgerald's crew may very well have and likely did screw up royally but this story still makes absolutely ZERO sense.

They "signaled with flashing lights" and the previous statement stated that 10 minutes prior to the collision they started an "avoidance" turn to starboard.

A.) Lights are the last resort. In damn near a decade of driving ships I flashed lights exactly once and that was ONLY after multiple hails on bridge to bridge went unanswered. It was also followed with danger blasts of the whistle. Flashing lights 10 minutes before and doing NOTHING else to try to establish contact makes absolutely no sense. None.

My question since day 1. Why did they not simply pick up the bridge to bridge radio like is done thousands of times and call? Is it because there is likely a record of radio transmissions but lights are obviously not able to be verified or proven? I can't help but be skeptical when I hear this.

B.) The previous statement was that they started a turn to stbd 10 minutes before the collision. Looking at the point of impact on the bow, it appears as if they made contact at a significant angle. From here on out it is simple math... had they simply gone straight, there would have been no collision. It really is that simple. Assuming 14kts for ACX Crystal and 12-14 kts for Fitzgerald, had ACX Crystal simply continued it's course, it would have passed over a mile astern and if they had turned to port it wouldn't have ever closed to less than 4 miles. This is not complicated ship handling. They could have easily seen from the bridge that Fitzgerald was on the bow. A turn to starboard basically kept the bow aimed right at her. Why? By their own admission they started their turn 10 minutes before the collision. Hell, if they were TRYING to hit her they couldn't have done it better. Again, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I certainly realize that there are many unknown pieces still but everything that has been said to this point leads to the conclusion that ACX Crystal turned to avoid a collision that wasn't going to happen.... and in turn, caused one.

[onedef92]

What about the ship's proximity alert klaxon? And what about her Phalanx Close-In Weapon System (CIWS)? Does it have to be in stand-by/arm mode to provide condition alerts to the bridge? :confused:

[RedLS1GTO]

What about the ship's proximity alert klaxon? And what about her Phalanx Close-In Weapon System (CIWS)? Does it have to be in stand-by/arm mode to provide condition alerts to the bridge? :confused:

The alerts are all set up on an individual basis so there's really no telling what they had done. There is no "proximity alert" per sey. It is all based on course, speed, and predicted CPA (closest point of approach). If the merchant was in the middle of a continuous turn, it wouldn't have actually calculated a 0 CPA until the very end.


My previous thought was that they either dismissed the track entirely for some reason or evaluated it, saw that it wasn't going to be close, and failed to notice the course change that essentially drove it right into the beam.

CIWS is a no-go for multiple reasons. It does not provide any "alerts" in and of itself. It was certainly secured while transiting shipping lanes. There SHOULD have been 2 systems that saw what was happening.

1st would be the navigation radar on the bridge, which is primary for driving the ship and marking contacts in a non-hostile environment

2nd would be the AN/SPY-1D(V) which is the primary fighting radar and is the primary component of the AEGIS Weapon System.

Why nobody on Fitzgerald identified what was happening is still something that I have absolutely no explanation for. I have a few guesses at how it may have gone unseen until a collision, but they are nothing more than a hunch.

[RedLS1GTO]

I am going to try to build a timeline of how this track would have looked from Fitzgerald's perspective based on what we know about course and speed of each vessel (but also making a few ASSumptions).

Collision = T: 0

T: -30
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts (best guess based on routine ops)
Courses are near perpendicular, Fitzgerald crossing, ACX Crystal to starboard
Separation = 18,400 yards
CPA = 2300 yds

It is to be noted that throughout the scenario that is being calculated, distances would all be larger if Fitzgerald's speed was > 12 and smaller if < 12.

T: -20
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts (best guess based on routine ops)
Courses still near perpendicular, Fitzgerald crossing, ACX Crystal to starboard
Separation = 12,300 yards
CPA = 2300 yds

T: -10
ACX Crystal "flashes lights" (claimed)
ACX Crystal begins turn to STBD, ~8 degrees/min (based on impact angle)
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts
Courses still near perpendicular, Fitzgerald crossing, ACX Crystal to starboard
Separation = 6100 yards
CPA = 2300 yds

T: -5
ACX Crystal in turn to STBD
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts
ACX Crystal now directly on the beam of Fitzgerald, course 40 degrees from perpendicular.
Separation = 3166 yards
CPA = 1100 yds

This is a critical point. Within a 5 minute window, when ACX Crystal started the turn that is claimed to "avoid" collision, a crossing that had over 1 mile CPA all of a sudden was cut in half and was decreasing rapidly.

It should also be noted that if the claimed starboard turn is true, even at this point, had they simply gone 0 rudder and maintained speed, ACX Crystal would have passed over 1/2 mile astern. Not a good scenario... but much better than a collision.

T: -2.5
ACX Crystal in turn to STBD
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts
ACX Crystal course ~60 degrees from perpendicular. ACX Crystal is now actually abaft of the beam yet turning towards.
Separation = 1500 yards
CPA = 500 yds

I do not know the handling characteristics of ACX Crystal, but even at this point... 2.5 minutes before collision... a rudder shift could still likely have avoided collision.

It is also noted that there was no mention of sounding danger on the whistle or any other attempt to hail Fitzgerald other than the light flash at 3 miles out.

Why?

T: 0
ACX Crystal in turn to STBD
ACX Crystal @ 14kts (known).
Fitzgerald @ 12kts
Separation = 0 yards
CPA = 0 yds

Why Fitzgerald did not recognize what was happening and react accordingly I can only speculate, but do take note of the numbers and timeline above. Even only 10 minutes before the collision, with what we know of ACX Crystal's course, speed, and turn, it was NOT even a remote threat of collision. Most COs want notification of any CPA under 2k yards (1 mile). It was only after ACX Crystal started their turn that this was the case and even then was a slowly decreasing number rather than a drastic change that would draw the attention of radar operators or lookouts.

It may seem at first thought that this was the equivalent of the steamroller driving towards the guy in Austin Powers but the reality is that it actually developed pretty quickly in terms of driving ships. IF the claimed continuous starboard turn of ACX Crystal is a true story, Fitzgerald had somewhere around 5 minutes to identify the decreasing CPA situation, verify the data that was being seen, realize that ACX Crystal was making a very unexpected turn, and react accordingly.

In addition to the turn, again, the part of this that makes no sense at all is the supposed light flash which occurred at the -10 minute mark. When ACX Crystal claims to have flashed lights, had Fitzgerald seen this and looked at the track, they would have seen over a mile CPA... THERE WAS NOT A RISK OF COLLISION AT THAT POINT.

Take all of the above for what it's worth...

[OddBall]

So the two biggest questions are still:
Why did the Crystal make the turn, and Why did the Fitzgerald not see them.

[onedef92]

The trapped sailors below deck who died in the incident reportedly did not have a lot of time to escape the torrent of water that flooded their compartments. Is there anything that could be done to make ships safer like an emergency sump pump with rapid-extraction capability, or does such technology already exist? :confused:

[RedLS1GTO]

The trapped sailors below deck who died in the incident reportedly did not have a lot of time to escape the torrent of water that flooded their compartments. Is there anything that could be done to make ships safer like an emergency sump pump with rapid-extraction capability, or does such technology already exist? :confused:

There are installed pumps in main spaces as well as emergency portable pumps. As I understand it, the hole beneath the waterline was large enough that no pump out there would keep up with it.

EDIT: Pictures below. No way a pump is going to keep up with that. Consider the people in the last picture for scale.

This hole would have likely sent most ships the size of Fitzgerald to the bottom in short order. It is only due to the ability to seal areas and contain flooding that it was able to stay afloat.

The below-the-waterline collision flooded two berthing spaces and one machinery space

That's a LOT of water coming in and a lot of spaces to contain simultaneously.

Unfortunately that compartmentalization came at a great cost in this case. We train and train and train and train again for events like this. From what I have heard, this crew was flawless at their damage control response.

EDIT: Images of below waterline damage can be seen here:

https://news.usni.org/2017/07/12/new-dry-dock-photos-show-extent-hidden-uss-fitzgerald-damage

[Fasglas]

So the two biggest questions are still:
Why did the Crystal make the turn, and Why did the Fitzgerald not SEE them.

Was NOBODY actually using their damn EYES? Everything else is second to that.

[Kevin_73]

EDIT: Images of below waterline damage can be seen here:

https://news.usni.org/2017/07/12/new-dry-dock-photos-show-extent-hidden-uss-fitzgerald-damage

:wow:
Looks like it was almost a perfect 90 degree T-bone collision. It'll be interesting to hear the results of the investigation(s).

:sadangel:

[RedLS1GTO]

Was NOBODY actually using their damn EYES? Everything else is second to that.

Just out of curiosity, when you say "NOBODY", how many people do you think should have had eyes on the area from which Chrystal approached either via radar or visually during normal steaming?

As a follow up, how difficult do you think it is at night to determine the course and speed of another ship visually?

You make it sound like driving a 9,000 ton ship is like cruising down the highway.

You are making the assumption that they didn't see it at all which may or may not be a correct statement. If you look at the numbers and timeline that was posted above, if everybody did everything perfectly, they still had about 5 minutes at most to figure out that Crystal had started making a turn that it should never be making, figure out WHERE it was turning, figure out that what had previously been a safe distance crossing was now all of a sudden a potential collision, and react accordingly. 5 minutes may sound like a lot but in that environment it absolutely is not.

If this turn happened as it is said to have happened, this would be about the equivalent of passing someone going down the highway and as you get to their door they cut the wheel into you. Yea, you probably saw it coming but by the time you did it was already too late to do anything about it.

You don't just look out the window, see a ship about to hit you and swerve out of the way in an instant.

[mrvette]

Just out of curiosity, when you say "NOBODY", how many people do you think should have had eyes on the area from which Chrystal approached either via radar or visually during normal steaming?

Beween the radar guy, and the bridge....I would guess 3 men....but the Crystal was running without lights.....and did that mysterious U turn....

it was under islam influence....BET on that.....

BECAUSE there is NO EFFING excuse for a canoe that long to be making a U turn...period, end of discussion.....

:issues:

[RedLS1GTO]

....but the Crystal was running without lights.....

IF... IF... IF... that is actually true, the chances of even a good lookout seeing it visually in time to do anything are about zero.

As shown above, the turn that they went into would have created the appearance of a safe crossing and given a very short amount of time to identify that it was actually a threat. If they had just driven straight at it, it would have given plenty of warning of CBDR (constant bearing, decreasing range) which indicates a collision course. They didn't. Crystal basically turned into it with a turn that could not have been better timed, didn't blow the whistle, didn't attempt to hail on bridge to bridge, and didn't alter speed.

I hate to go along with Gene, but IF, again IF, someone was intentionally trying to ram another ship, they couldn't have possibly done it better than Crystal.

[DAB]

ok, dumb question:

from what i've read, there are established shipping lanes all over the world (kind of like airplanes follow established routes), but Navy ships are not carrying and delivering rubber ducks and auto parts from China. so why is a Navy ship anywhere near congested shipping lanes? it's not like they are due in some port in 3 days, they can go wherever they want.

i guess my analogy is that you don't see Army Rangers conducting training patrols in the middle of the nearest interstate highway.

[JRD77VET]

The Philippine container ship that crashed into a US guided-missile destroyer may be liable for almost $2 billion - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/philippine-container-ship-mv-acx-crystal-uss-fitzgerald-destroyer-crash-legal-liability-2017-7)

[Fasglas]

Just out of curiosity, when you say "NOBODY", how many people do you think should have had eyes on the area from which Chrystal approached either via radar or visually during normal steaming?

As a follow up, how difficult do you think it is at night to determine the course and speed of another ship visually?

You make it sound like driving a 9,000 ton ship is like cruising down the highway.

You are making the assumption that they didn't see it at all which may or may not be a correct statement. If you look at the numbers and timeline that was posted above, if everybody did everything perfectly, they still had about 5 minutes at most to figure out that Crystal had started making a turn that it should never be making, figure out WHERE it was turning, figure out that what had previously been a safe distance crossing was now all of a sudden a potential collision, and react accordingly. 5 minutes may sound like a lot but in that environment it absolutely is not.

If this turn happened as it is said to have happened, this would be about the equivalent of passing someone going down the highway and as you get to their door they cut the wheel into you. Yea, you probably saw it coming but by the time you did it was already too late to do anything about it.

You don't just look out the window, see a ship about to hit you and swerve out of the way in an instant.

OK, Make it as complicated as you see fit.

Seems the Crystal's movements have been examined, ad nauseum. A vessel of that size does NOT execute u-turns with the agility of a Volkswagen.

Are we to believe the Fitzgerald was just poking along, minding it's own business, without a soul paying any attention to where they were going or what may have been close by?

The area is known for heavy traffic. (1st clue)

[RedLS1GTO]

OK, Make it as complicated as you see fit.

I spent a decade of my life driving destroyers (exactly like Fitzgerald) in areas exactly like the one they were in when this happened. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what happens.

It IS complicated.

Are we to believe the Fitzgerald was just poking along, minding it's own business, without a soul paying any attention to where they were going or what may have been close by?

Where, exactly, did I say that?

I asked a very simple question to try to understand your comment:

Just out of curiosity, when you say "NOBODY", how many people do you think should have had eyes on the area from which Chrystal approached either via radar or visually during normal steaming?

The way you worded your statement, it seems as if you think that there should have been a large number of people who saw this thing coming which simply is not the case.

[mrvette]

OK, Make it as complicated as you see fit.

Seems the Crystal's movements have been examined, ad nauseum. A vessel of that size does NOT execute u-turns with the agility of a Volkswagen.

Are we to believe the Fitzgerald was just poking along, minding it's own business, without a soul paying any attention to where they were going or what may have been close by?

The area is known for heavy traffic. (1st clue)

Traffic flow, or NOT, just specifically WHY was a canoe that size making a DAMN U TURN?? there is NO other reason than it was deliberate ramming.....ALL else is bullshit smokescreen ......:issues:

islam :sadangel:

[OddBall]

Damage on the ACX Crystal.

It had to be coming up from the starboard rear of the Fitzgerald. And seems that it could have easily avoided the collision.

Could have also came up alongside of the Fitzgerald from the starboard rear, and then steered into her.

http://www.dw.com/image/39287619_401.jpg

http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/113933/four_col_boat_3.jpg?1497677239

[MrPeabody]

Saw this on another website:

USS Fitzgerald at fault for crash, investigation suggests | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718884/Investigation-suggests-USS-Fitzgerald-fault-crash.html)

[RedLS1GTO]

Preliminary findings in the inquiry indicate crew members on the Fitzgerald failed to acknowledge the ACX Crystal was approaching and did not the necessary action to avoid a collision, according to two Defense Department officials who spoke to CNN.


Yes. Fitzgerald had every means necessary to see it coming. No. They didn't react. I feel like we already knew that part.

I want to know WHY.

Why did Chrystal not call on B2B if they saw a collision coming?

Why did they make an "avoidance" turn INTO Fitzgerald rather than away from?

Why did nobody on the bridge or CIC of Fitzgerald see the decreasing CPA and react accordingly?

Did they not see it at all or did they not react?

[Olustee bus]

I don't know but if I was driving down the highway and some car came up to me on one side and was headed in a way to hit my car and I did not react fast enough and the other car hits me while I am in my lane, I don't think the accident was my fault. True, It was my fault I did not react fast enough to avoid it but damnit, it was not my fault the two cars collided.

[MrPeabody]

The main thing I got from the story was that the Chrystal made the U-turn after the collision, not before.

[Fasglas]

Saw this on another website:

USS Fitzgerald at fault for crash, investigation suggests | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718884/Investigation-suggests-USS-Fitzgerald-fault-crash.html)

Interesting, very interesting.

[DAB]

just on the news, commander Bryce Benson and XO have been fired from the Navy.

i'll try to find a linky

[RedLS1GTO]

just on the news, commander Bryce Benson and XO have been fired from the Navy.

i'll try to find a linky

That part was pretty much a given the moment it went crash.

[DAB]

story:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/17/commander-stricken-destroyer-fitzgerald-relieved-after-navy-report-cites-failures/577805001/