The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

At legal speeds, most cars brakes are more than adequate to stop the car. The difference in braking distance is only larger at highly illegal speeds that you shouldn't really drive on a public highway. If someone wants to drive fast, there are race tracks to do that.

Like I said.

The most ridiculous part of this argument that you keep making is that you can't seem to grasp the very simple fact that handling, brakes, and other aspects of performance can be experienced outside of a race track driving at the limit.

Nobody is talking about driving fast. Nobody is talking about "highly illegal speeds". Not being able to tell the difference of a good handling car or the difference of good brakes vs. bad outside of "highly illegal speeds" is pretty damned pathetic for anybody who would call themselves an "enthusiast".

Of course if you have standards that are anything beyond "adequate", it's pretty safe to say that you would never own a Tesla.


That's how Elon should start marketing his shitboxes. Rather than saying the stupid shit he says he should stick to the basics at his press conferences.

"Buy the new Tesla Petunia. It's adequate."

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Like I said.



Nobody is talking about driving fast. Nobody is talking about "highly illegal speeds". Not being able to tell the difference of a good handling car or the difference of good brakes vs. bad outside of "highly illegal speeds" is pretty damned pathetic for anybody who would call themselves an "enthusiast".

Of course if you have standards that are anything beyond "adequate", it's pretty safe to say that you would never own a Tesla.


That's how Elon should start marketing his shitboxes. Rather than saying the stupid shit he says he should stick to the basics at his press conferences.

"Buy the new Tesla Petunia. It's adequate."

Even with my 1968 Vette which had no power brakes and by todays standard, very small brakes, I was able to lock up the brakes at 80 mph.
Any vehicle that has brakes that can do that will have similar brake distance compared to any other vehicles of the same size/weight with the same type of tires.
The electronic anti lock brakes will modulate your braking and prevent the brakes from locking up. If the brakes are strong enough to lock up the brakes, it all comes down to tire size and vehicle weight. If you have the track pack brakes on a Model S Plaid, your stopping distance at 70 or 80 mph will not be noticeable different than on a Model S Plaid with the factory brakes. The difference comes in if you drive aggressive and frequently brake hard. That's when conventional brakes overheat and the performance brakes will have an advantage. For normal street driving, this will never come into play. Sure, performance brakes will have more bite with less pedal pressure. However, in an emergency situation where you need to brake as hard as you can, those brakes have no benefit as it comes down to vehicle weight, tires and your car's anti lock electronics to determine braking distance. I drove my buddy's Lambo Urus and those brakes had way too much bite which often made it difficult to slowly brake the vehicle.

[Steve_R]

"Track pack brakes" on a Tesla.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

"Track pack brakes" on a Tesla.

Nosferatu has them. He does drive aggressive, so, they have some benefit for his car. Unplugged Performance uses those brakes on road courses very successfully with lots of track records.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Nosferatu has them. He does drive aggressive, so, they have some benefit for his car. Unplugged Performance uses those brakes on road courses very successfully with lots of track records.

And? You forget I've done a lot of high speed road racing, so I know the value of good brakes - and good handling. "Track pack" brakes on a street car are for showing off. Period. If you drive aggressively enough on the street to need them you should probably be in jail or at least have your license revoked.

[GTOguy]

I disassembled, cleaned, lubricated, and re-assembled my hair clippers. MAN they scream now. Next on the list: my electric razor! Gonna Track-Pack that bitch.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Even with my 1968 Vette which had no power brakes and by todays standard, very small brakes, I was able to lock up the brakes at 80 mph.

Holy shit. Your argument is that you are ABLE to lock up the brakes?

You realize that NOT locking them up is the point, right?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Any vehicle that has brakes that can do that will have similar brake distance compared to any other vehicles of the same size/weight with the same type of tires.

That's actually in the running for the most ignorant thing you have said to date.

You have absolutely ZERO understanding of how brakes work and even less understanding ov vehicle dynamics as a whole. None.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The electronic anti lock brakes will modulate your braking and prevent the brakes from locking up. If the brakes are strong enough to lock up the brakes, it all comes down to tire size and vehicle weight.

False.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

For normal street driving, this will never come into play. Sure, performance brakes will have more bite with less pedal pressure. However, in an emergency situation where you need to brake as hard as you can, those brakes have no benefit as it comes down to vehicle weight, tires and your car's anti lock electronics to determine braking distance. I drove my buddy's Lambo Urus and those brakes had way too much bite which often made it difficult to slowly brake the vehicle.

How much heat do you think is generated in an "emergency stop" from highway speeds? Do you really not understand what that does to brake performance, even with ABS systems? Do you really think that I could bolt some 1980s single piston calipers on the front of that Urus and stop from 80mph in the same distance because "anti lock electronics"? Do you not understand that even at the most basic level that larger (better) brake rotors, larger pad surfaces, better calipers all have a much better heat dissipation which allows them to be modulated at a much higher frequency? It doesn't take running laps at a track to get there. It does it almost immediately. 1 panic stop from highway speeds. Not racing. Not any of the crap you claim.

In addition to the brakes themselves, do you really think that the suspension, weight transfer properties, spring and shock rates, dynamic camber, etc all play no part in that stopping distance... as long as the brakes can lock up the tires? Do you not understand that all of those systems work together?

it comes down to vehicle weight, tires and your car's anti lock electronics

Braking systems completely aside, if they have the same tires and ABS systems, do you think that a truck with a large travel, soft, offroad suspension that inherently has a large amount of dynamic camber is going to stop in exactly the same distance as 1 that is more stiffly sprung with a lower CG, much less suspension travel (and therefore much less weight transfer)?

That might be the most pathetically simple minded and ignorant thing I have ever heard someone say.

You can't actually be that f**king clueless.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Holy shit. Your argument is that you are ABLE to lock up the brakes?

You realize that NOT locking them up is the point, right?



That's actually in the running for the most ignorant thing you have said to date.

You have absolutely ZERO understanding of how brakes work and even less understanding ov vehicle dynamics as a whole. None.



False.



How much heat do you think is generated in an "emergency stop" from highway speeds? Do you really not understand what that does to brake performance, even with ABS systems? Do you really think that I could bolt some 1980s single piston calipers on the front of that Urus and stop from 80mph in the same distance because "anti lock electronics"? Do you not understand that even at the most basic level that larger (better) brake rotors, larger pad surfaces, better calipers all have a much better heat dissipation which allows them to be modulated at a much higher frequency? It doesn't take running laps at a track to get there. It does it almost immediately. 1 panic stop from highway speeds. Not racing. Not any of the crap you claim.

In addition to the brakes themselves, do you really think that the suspension, weight transfer properties, spring and shock rates, dynamic camber, etc all play no part in that stopping distance... as long as the brakes can lock up the tires? Do you not understand that all of those systems work together?



Braking systems completely aside, if they have the same tires and ABS systems, do you think that a truck with a large travel, soft, offroad suspension that inherently has a large amount of dynamic camber is going to stop in exactly the same distance as 1 that is more stiffly sprung with a lower CG, much less suspension travel (and therefore much less weight transfer)?

That might be the most pathetically simple minded and ignorant thing I have ever heard someone say.

You can't actually be that f**king clueless.

So, your brakes will overheat if you have to do one emergency stop from 80 mph to 0 mph? I highly doubt that a Model S Plaid with the track pack brakes will do noticably better on a single 80 mph to 0 mph stop than a car with factory brakes. There are things that can make a little difference but if you have a emergency brake situation of vehicles with similar weight and tires from highway speed, the difference will be minimal. Sure, at higher speeds 100+ mph or repeated hard braking, performance brakes make a huge difference.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

...if you have a emergency brake situation of vehicles with similar weight and tires from highway speed, the difference will be minimal.

You didn't answer this question. It's a very simple one.

Braking systems completely aside, if they have the same tires and ABS systems, do you think that a truck with a large travel, soft, offroad suspension that inherently has a large amount of dynamic camber is going to stop in exactly the same distance as 1 that is more stiffly sprung with a lower CG, much less suspension travel (and therefore much less weight transfer)?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, your brakes will overheat if you have to do one emergency stop from 80 mph to 0 mph?

Stop using extreme and simple minded statements. I never said that.

Will they "overheat"? In most cars, probably not. In a truck with a trailer... absolutely. Will they get hot enough to change friction properties? Absolutely. Yes, the efficiency is absolutely impacted over the course of a single 80mph stop. That efficiency and heat dissipation properties change the frequency at which they have to be modulated. If you get outside of the efficient temperature range, they will not work as well, and no amount of ABS changes that. They will need more modulation to maintain threshold. More modulation = variation of load through the tire = "shocking" the system = less grip = longer stopping distance.

Yes, this happens over the course of a single stop. The heavier the vehicle or the faster the speed, the more pronounced it is. Perhaps on a sub-compact it doesn't make that much difference but as the vehicle gets larger, it sure as shit does.

It's really not difficult to understand.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I highly doubt that a Model S Plaid with the track pack brakes will do noticably better on a single 80 mph to 0 mph stop than a car with factory brakes.

I really couldn't care less about what Tesla does. I don't know what "track pack" even means in Elon's world and I don't care enough to look it up.

As for brakes, at it's most basic level, braking in a car is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That thermal energy must go somewhere. Larger rotors generate a larger lever arm to apply that torque. Different materials of the components, geometries, etc provide different avenues for the dissipation of the heat. Larger pad contact areas give more consistent application of that force to the rotor. More consistent application allows the system to be closer to threshold without spikes that cause the need for more modulation. Different suspension setups ensure tire loading and traction in maximized throughout the process. Better tires allow more energy to be transferred back into the braking system.

It all matters. It is not as simple as "enough to lock up the tires". That is pathetically simple minded.

Yes, electronics can modulate to prevent a full lockup, but there is a feedback loop to allow them to do so. Better braking systems allow that modulation to be much more consistent and linear, therefore making it much more effective. More margin in the system makes it more repeatable. More repeatable equates to better feedback to the system. Better feedback equals better adjustments and more precise modulation. There is no amount of "anti lock electronics" that can overcome basic physics and thermodynamics.

Don't believe me? Great. If you want to learn something, go find out for yourself. Pick a car. Any car you want. Go buy the cheapest Amazon brake pads you can find and put them on. Now go "panic stop" from 70 MPH. Now do the same thing with a very good set of brake pads. You don't have to do it over and over. You don't have to be going crazy speeds. You don't have to be on a race track.

Do it once.

And then tell us what you find out.

I'll give you a big hint. The stopping distance will not be the same. Not even close. I (with 2 other people) actually went to a runway and did exactly this with about 5 different sets of pads and again with different rotors on my C5 Z06 at 1 point to settle an argument on CF. After that, I swapped to my big track 6 piston AP setup and did it again. Same car, same tires, same day, same piece of pavement. I actually ran 3x back to back to back stops in my testing but the difference in setups was drastic, even on the first stop. The original argument was a generic argument of ceramic pads vs. metallic but it clearly expanded greatly beyond that.

Why? Because I like facts and data as opposed to simply making shit up.

Unfortunately the results pissed off 1 of the vendors and it got deleted.

The point of all of that being yes, it matters. If "adequate" is your goal, great. That's perfectly ok. Yes, any modern braking system will indeed stop a car from 80mph. However, the comments that the brakes make no difference and that they're all the same is absolutely incorrect.

[DDSLT5]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

And? You forget I've done a lot of high speed road racing, so I know the value of good brakes - and good handling. "Track pack" brakes on a street car are for showing off. Period. If you drive aggressively enough on the street to need them you should probably be in jail or at least have your license revoked.

Well put. The only reason I like huge brakes on my street car is that they basically never need servicing. My Cayenne Turbo S has insanely huge brakes. I had my first brake service at 165,000 miles. No joke. The front calipers needed to be rebuilt as some of the pistons were sticking and thus needed a service! That was original pads too! Through 15 Canadian winters (salt included) as it was my winter vehicle. Impressive.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

And? You forget I've done a lot of high speed road racing, so I know the value of good brakes - and good handling. "Track pack" brakes on a street car are for showing off. Period. If you drive aggressively enough on the street to need them you should probably be in jail or at least have your license revoked.

You need to get caught first to get your license revoked

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Stop using extreme and simple minded statements. I never said that.

Will they "overheat"? In most cars, probably not. In a truck with a trailer... absolutely. Will they get hot enough to change friction properties? Absolutely. Yes, the efficiency is absolutely impacted over the course of a single 80mph stop. That efficiency and heat dissipation properties change the frequency at which they have to be modulated. If you get outside of the efficient temperature range, they will not work as well, and no amount of ABS changes that. They will need more modulation to maintain threshold. More modulation = variation of load through the tire = "shocking" the system = less grip = longer stopping distance.

Yes, this happens over the course of a single stop. The heavier the vehicle or the faster the speed, the more pronounced it is. Perhaps on a sub-compact it doesn't make that much difference but as the vehicle gets larger, it sure as shit does.

It's really not difficult to understand.



I really couldn't care less about what Tesla does. I don't know what "track pack" even means in Elon's world and I don't care enough to look it up.

As for brakes, at it's most basic level, braking in a car is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That thermal energy must go somewhere. Larger rotors generate a larger lever arm to apply that torque. Different materials of the components, geometries, etc provide different avenues for the dissipation of the heat. Larger pad contact areas give more consistent application of that force to the rotor. More consistent application allows the system to be closer to threshold without spikes that cause the need for more modulation. Different suspension setups ensure tire loading and traction in maximized throughout the process. Better tires allow more energy to be transferred back into the braking system.

It all matters. It is not as simple as "enough to lock up the tires". That is pathetically simple minded.

Yes, electronics can modulate to prevent a full lockup, but there is a feedback loop to allow them to do so. Better braking systems allow that modulation to be much more consistent and linear, therefore making it much more effective. More margin in the system makes it more repeatable. More repeatable equates to better feedback to the system. Better feedback equals better adjustments and more precise modulation. There is no amount of "anti lock electronics" that can overcome basic physics and thermodynamics.

Don't believe me? Great. If you want to learn something, go find out for yourself. Pick a car. Any car you want. Go buy the cheapest Amazon brake pads you can find and put them on. Now go "panic stop" from 70 MPH. Now do the same thing with a very good set of brake pads. You don't have to do it over and over. You don't have to be going crazy speeds. You don't have to be on a race track.

Do it once.

And then tell us what you find out.

I'll give you a big hint. The stopping distance will not be the same. Not even close. I (with 2 other people) actually went to a runway and did exactly this with about 5 different sets of pads and again with different rotors on my C5 Z06 at 1 point to settle an argument on CF. After that, I swapped to my big track 6 piston AP setup and did it again. Same car, same tires, same day, same piece of pavement. I actually ran 3x back to back to back stops in my testing but the difference in setups was drastic, even on the first stop. The original argument was a generic argument of ceramic pads vs. metallic but it clearly expanded greatly beyond that.

Why? Because I like facts and data as opposed to simply making shit up.

Unfortunately the results pissed off 1 of the vendors and it got deleted.

The point of all of that being yes, it matters. If "adequate" is your goal, great. That's perfectly ok. Yes, any modern braking system will indeed stop a car from 80mph. However, the comments that the brakes make no difference and that they're all the same is absolutely incorrect.

We are talking about one single emergency stop from 80 to zero. If your brakes are not hot when you do that, there should be little difference. The benefits of larger brakes or better materials only comes in when your brakes are hot from aggressive driving. Changing brake pads CAN indeed change your stopping distance, especially if you don't use your factory pads for the simple reason that your ABS is tuned for those pads and will not work as efficient if you use a different type. It's always a good idea to use the recommended pads for your brake system. I do agree that the main purpose of good brakes is to dissipate heat but one singe stop on cold brakes will not cause the brakes to get to a temperature where braking performance is compromised.
Suspension can obviously affect braking distance, especially aftermarket systems designed for different terrain. Camber is very important for braking distance to create the most friction between the tires and the asphalt. Tires themselves can make a huge difference. A lower treadwear number usually gets you better braking distance vs. higher treadwear.
On EV's, if someone drives normally, your brake pads will be barely above environment temperature as most braking is done using regen and not friction brakes. So, if you drive around and you have to do an emergency stop, brake performance will be as good as can be as you will be braking when the brakes are cold. Of course, if you do a couple of back to back drag strip passes and then slam the brakes, your braking distance will be affected without a doubt.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You need to get caught first to get your license revoked

There’s not a car available that can outrun radio signals and helicopters.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

There’s not a car available that can outrun radio signals and helicopters.

I know people who have gotten away with it for many years. I was pulled over for racing together with 6 other Vettes in 2003 on the Florida Turnpike during a Corvetteforum event. As they had no radar of us driving 120+ mph, they let us off with a warning. When they caught up with us, we were going the speed limit.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I know people who have gotten away with it for many years. I was pulled over for racing together with 6 other Vettes in 2003 on the Florida Turnpike during a Corvetteforum event. As they had no radar of us driving 120+ mph, they let us off with a warning. When they caught up with us, we were going the speed limit.

You're obviously special.

Going 120+ on a public road is stupid. Bragging about it is worse.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

You're obviously special.

Going 120+ on a public road is stupid. Bragging about it is worse.

I only admit to it as it's past the statute of limitation by now.. That was 21 years ago..
I actually haven't red light raced for over a year now. Not so much because I don't want to but mostly because most people can now identify a Plaid and don't want to get embarrassed. Nobody wants to race me anymore

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

There’s not a car available that can outrun radio signals and helicopters.

Well, except:

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I actually haven't red light raced for over a year now. Not so much because I don't want to but mostly because most people can now identify a Plaid and don't want to get embarrassed. Nobody wants to race me anymore

Most people driving around have no clue what a Plaid is, or that there's even such a thing. If you're still "red light racing" you seriously need to grow up.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Most people driving around have no clue what a Plaid is, or that there's even such a thing. If you're still "red light racing" you seriously need to grow up.

I do virtually all my racing at the drag strip. As I said, it rarely ever happens that I race at a light..
Around here, most know what a Plaid is. Anyone who watches youtube racing videos.. My youtube and facebook feed is full of races between cars and there are many where gas cars get embarrassed by a Plaid. Of course, there are races where the Plaid loses, like roll racing against a 1800 HP R8 etc.. Not too many 1800 HP cars on the road